My biggest issue

[Leaf]

I dont think that tracers are the only element fired from the machine guns or cannons that add damage to the plane. Yes, a single tracer are 4 bullets fired from [Cannons] or 8 bullets fired from [MGs]. 

In my eyes this boost the damage on the Plane DM.

 

4 x (damage value from [Cannons bullets] + damage value from other elements) = ?

8 x (damage value from [MG bullets] + damage value from other elements) = ?

 

I don't quite understand what you're saying here. Maybe you don't either.

One tracer is not 4 bullets. One tracer is exactly that, one tracer. I don't know how the ammunition belts are configured in BoS, but let's say 1 in 4 cannon rounds is a tracer and 1 in 8 MG rounds is a tracer. So if you're flying a Bf 109 with 1 cannon and 2 MG's and you fire until you see 1 tracer from each gun, here's what you've fired:

4 cannon rounds + 2(8 MG rounds), so that's 4 20mm shells and 16 MG rounds. If you can't bring down a fighter with that, then there's something wrong (unless it's like a P47 or something). 

I think the damage model in BoS is just fine. Perfect? No. But good enough. Planes should certainly not be harder to shoot down, because if you look at gun camera footage, it took surprisingly few hits to shoot down an aircraft.

[steppenwolf]

The old Revi sight on the 190 was good enough too

[Livai]

I don't quite understand what you're saying here. Maybe you don't either.

One tracer is not 4 bullets. One tracer is exactly that, one tracer. I don't know how the ammunition belts are configured in BoS, but let's say 1 in 4 cannon rounds is a tracer and 1 in 8 MG rounds is a tracer. So if you're flying a Bf 109 with 1 cannon and 2 MG's and you fire until you see 1 tracer from each gun, here's what you've fired:

4 cannon rounds + 2(8 MG rounds), so that's 4 20mm shells and 16 MG rounds. If you can't bring down a fighter with that, then there's something wrong (unless it's like a P47 or something). 

I think the damage model in BoS is just fine. Perfect? No. But good enough. Planes should certainly not be harder to shoot down, because if you look at gun camera footage, it took surprisingly few hits to shoot down an aircraft.

 

I looked inside the game files from there I use the value.

 

AmountRoundsWithOneTracer = 4 [Cannons]

AmountRoundsWithOneTracer = 8 [MG]

 

 

[GunAmmunition=0] // 500 áðîíåáîéíûõ ïóëü 7.92õ57 (ê ïóëåìåòó MG 17)

ExpendableMass = 7.2

ResidualMass = 7.176 //Ãäå òî ïîòåðÿíû 0.5 êã áîåçàïàñà â ðåô-îò÷åòå, âîîáùå òî ïî êàëüêóëÿöèè äîëæíî áûòü 7.7

MaxMisFiresInMagazine=0

MaxRoundsInMagazine=500

RoundsInMagazine=500

ReservedMagazines=0

AmountRoundsWithOneTracer=8 // êàæäàÿ 8-ÿ ïóëÿ ñ òðàññåðîì

TracerIdx=0

object0="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/BULLET_GER_7-92x57_AP.txt"

BushConfig = "LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Trash/Batch_case07-08mm.txt"

[end]

 

[GunAmmunition=1] // 67 áðîíåáîéíûõ è 133 îñêîëî÷íî-ôóãàñíûõ ñíàðÿäîâ 20õ82 (ê ïóøêå MG 151/20)

ExpendableMass = 23.6691

ResidualMass = 18.3499 // Ëèøíÿÿ ìàññà â ðåôå-îò÷åòå ïî ñðàâíåíèþ ñ ðàñ÷åòîì ïîðÿäêà 2êã, ä.á. 16.34êã

MaxMisFiresInMagazine=0

MaxRoundsInMagazine=200

RoundsInMagazine=200

ReservedMagazines=0

AmountRoundsWithOneTracer=4 // êàæäàÿ 4-ÿ ïóëÿ ñ òðàññåðîì

object0="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/SHELL_GER_20x82_HE.txt"

object1="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/SHELL_GER_20x82_AP.txt"

object2="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/SHELL_GER_20x82_HE.txt"

BushConfig = "LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Trash/Batch_case12-20mm.txt"

[end]

 

[GunAmmunition=2] // 67 áðîíåáîéíûõ è 68 îñêîëî÷íî-ôóãàñíûõ ñíàðÿäîâ 20õ82 (ê ïóøêå MG 151/20) //GUNPODS

ExpendableMass = 27.6006

ResidualMass = 0.0

MaxMisFiresInMagazine=0

MaxRoundsInMagazine=135

RoundsInMagazine=135

ReservedMagazines=0

AmountRoundsWithOneTracer=4 // êàæäàÿ 4-ÿ ïóëÿ ñ òðàññåðîì

object0="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/SHELL_GER_20x82_AP.txt"

object1="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/SHELL_GER_20x82_HE.txt"

BushConfig = "LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Trash/Batch_case12-20mm.txt"

[end]

 

 

 

I dont know how the game calculate the value or how the balance is between each weapon or shell. But you see that this [AmountRoundsWithOneTracer = ?]  how many hit the plane with on tracer. It could be that the game engine not draw all tracers because the are to fast for the eye to realize it.  This [AmountRoundsWithOneTracer = ?] can be understand that if you press the fire button each time you see that the MGs fired are 8 Rounds [RoundsInMagazine=500] that comes out or for Cannons 4 Rounds [RoundsInMagazine=200]  that comes out and hit the plane.

 

 

[senseispcc]

I am sorry to say this is not real live and there must be a balance between what can be done and what your PC's can do/support. If every one of us had the post advance PC with four of the best graphic cards then a game could be built to reproduce reality in more realistic ways but we do not have this wonderful PC's. The rendering of smoke, condensation trails, fuel leaks depend on the graphic settings of the game. I have a nice rendering of fuel leaks how can take a long time to empty the fuel tanks!

 

For me this is a nice game build for a great equilibrium between playability and realism, thanks to all how build it for us/me so we/I can enjoy it.

 

     

hebergeur image  

[Leaf]

 

I looked inside the game files from there I use the value.

 

AmountRoundsWithOneTracer = 4 [Cannons]

AmountRoundsWithOneTracer = 8 [MG]

 

 

[GunAmmunition=0] // 500 áðîíåáîéíûõ ïóëü 7.92õ57 (ê ïóëåìåòó MG 17)

ExpendableMass = 7.2

ResidualMass = 7.176 //Ãäå òî ïîòåðÿíû 0.5 êã áîåçàïàñà â ðåô-îò÷åòå, âîîáùå òî ïî êàëüêóëÿöèè äîëæíî áûòü 7.7

MaxMisFiresInMagazine=0

MaxRoundsInMagazine=500

RoundsInMagazine=500

ReservedMagazines=0

AmountRoundsWithOneTracer=8 // êàæäàÿ 8-ÿ ïóëÿ ñ òðàññåðîì

TracerIdx=0

object0="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/BULLET_GER_7-92x57_AP.txt"

BushConfig = "LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Trash/Batch_case07-08mm.txt"

[end]

 

[GunAmmunition=1] // 67 áðîíåáîéíûõ è 133 îñêîëî÷íî-ôóãàñíûõ ñíàðÿäîâ 20õ82 (ê ïóøêå MG 151/20)

ExpendableMass = 23.6691

ResidualMass = 18.3499 // Ëèøíÿÿ ìàññà â ðåôå-îò÷åòå ïî ñðàâíåíèþ ñ ðàñ÷åòîì ïîðÿäêà 2êã, ä.á. 16.34êã

MaxMisFiresInMagazine=0

MaxRoundsInMagazine=200

RoundsInMagazine=200

ReservedMagazines=0

AmountRoundsWithOneTracer=4 // êàæäàÿ 4-ÿ ïóëÿ ñ òðàññåðîì

object0="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/SHELL_GER_20x82_HE.txt"

object1="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/SHELL_GER_20x82_AP.txt"

object2="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/SHELL_GER_20x82_HE.txt"

BushConfig = "LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Trash/Batch_case12-20mm.txt"

[end]

 

[GunAmmunition=2] // 67 áðîíåáîéíûõ è 68 îñêîëî÷íî-ôóãàñíûõ ñíàðÿäîâ 20õ82 (ê ïóøêå MG 151/20) //GUNPODS

ExpendableMass = 27.6006

ResidualMass = 0.0

MaxMisFiresInMagazine=0

MaxRoundsInMagazine=135

RoundsInMagazine=135

ReservedMagazines=0

AmountRoundsWithOneTracer=4 // êàæäàÿ 4-ÿ ïóëÿ ñ òðàññåðîì

object0="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/SHELL_GER_20x82_AP.txt"

object1="LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Ballistics/Projectiles/SHELL_GER_20x82_HE.txt"

BushConfig = "LuaScripts/WorldObjects/Trash/Batch_case12-20mm.txt"

[end]

 

 

 

I dont know how the game calculate the value or how the balance is between each weapon or shell. But you see that this [AmountRoundsWithOneTracer = ?]  how many hit the plane with on tracer. It could be that the game engine not draw all tracers because the are to fast for the eye to realize it.  This [AmountRoundsWithOneTracer = ?] can be understand that if you press the fire button each time you see that the MGs fired are 8 Rounds [RoundsInMagazine=500] that comes out or for Cannons 4 Rounds [RoundsInMagazine=200]  that comes out and hit the plane.

 

As I said, I think it's a ratio. 1:8 rounds is a tracer. That's all.

I'm not a programmer, and I certainly don't pretend to know how the developers model these things, but I have confidence in them.

[KoN_]

If you want to see good damage effects see Cliffs of Dover ,  ..i like this Sim and i like the weekly updates . . but then i have not sat down and flown that much on here . i tend to go in too a server fly for ten mints then leave . i am still learning about the game .

Edited August 30, 2014 by II/JG77_Con

[SYN_Per]

I'm sure Kling knows about CloD...

[Kling]

I'm sure Kling knows about CloD...

[Leaf]

Subtle plug there, JG 77 Con.

[Kling]

Guys Im not bashing the game! BOS is shaping up nicely! Very nicely even! I was a big fan of ROF and would still be if the FMs got the update that the community was asking for for 3 years.

 

In either case, I have flown almost every ww1-ww2 combat sims since 1990(Red Baron) and in no sim/game did I have the feeling that is was that easy to produce the Hollywood smoke and fire we have in BOS!

 

Im not saying that its too easy to damage planes. Im saying that its always the same Holywood smoke and fire everywhere. It makes the game look very arcadish and Playstation 3ish

 

Except for these effects the game is very very beautiful!!

[[DBS]TH0R]

Im not saying that its too easy to damage planes. Im saying that its always the same Holywood smoke and fire everywhere. It makes the game look very arcadish and Playstation 3ish

 

Except for these effects the game is very very beautiful!!

 

Seconded.

[Kling]

My first test of the new patch..

4 planes out of 4 flying around with smoke...

Actually I think one issue is that the smoke from leaking fuel is way overdone and looks like proper thick white smoke. Most smoke seems way too thick and wide except for the proper fire smoke which looks nice.

 

Hollywood/Playstation 3 comes to my mind

 

Edited August 30, 2014 by Kling

[steppenwolf]

I would love to see sputtering with some of the smoke and fire!   

[Leaf]

My first test of the new patch..

4 planes out of 4 flying around with smoke...

Actually I think one issue is that the smoke from leaking fuel is way overdone and looks like proper thick white smoke. Most smoke seems way too thick and wide except for the proper fire smoke which looks nice.

 

Hollywood/Playstation 3 comes to my mind

 

 

What you're seeing there is three different leaks. 

 

White:

water/radiator liquid. That bright white colour is very realistic if we look at gun camera footage, as is the length of the trail, since it's vapour.

 

Light grey:

aviation fuel. That's possibly too opaque, I agree, but that's just an opinion.

 

Dark grey:

Engine oil. That stuff is very viscous and should not produce such a thick, dispersed trail. It should be thinner, due to the higher viscosity.

 

I don't think it's the ease at which smoke is produced which is the problem here, it's rather the  graphical representation of it.

 

Here's some rather harrowing gun camera footage to illustrate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM9O_WeKeQg

Notice how not all flame-outs produced thick, black smoke.

[Thor]

Tested. Tires have no DM, you can spend all Il-2 rear gunner ammo on tire of another Il-2 on runway that nothing happens. Only if you hit the struts, the gear fallen - in one piece.

 

On the same way, all ammo dont "saw off" the tail of other il-2 hitting then from side, but if you shoot at you own fin (rudder/stab), the whole rear section of fuselage come down....

 

There's another topic people arguing about il-2 easiness to catch fire (or not), this is true but if you hit on appropriated spot, around rear gunner - in fact I aim at then   from side - few hits "fried" the poor.

But you can spend all 12,7mm on wings or around water/oil radiator that only do secondary damage (leakages).

 

Sokol1

Great testing Sokol!

[Shadylurker]

Planes smoke up much to quickly, and burn even faster in game.  They had self sealing fuel tanks  Fuel only ignites from vapor it makes, it needs oxygen...  Believe it or not aircraft were pretty tough...tougher then some are trying to make out.  Oil coolers wouldn't mist like the game implies, both fuel and water smoke is way over done IMO. yea they would smoke a lot but the amount of smoke in game would be like burning pints per second if it was oil, and would be gone in a short amount of time...worse for water.

 

Edited August 30, 2014 by Shadylurker

[Leaf]

Planes smoke up much to quickly, and burn even faster in game.  They had self sealing fuel tanks  Fuel only ignites from vapor it makes, it needs oxygen...  Believe it or not aircraft were pretty tough...tougher then some are trying to make out.  Oil coolers wouldn't mist like the game implies, both fuel and water smoke is way over done IMO. yea they would smoke a lot but the amount of smoke in game would be like burning pints per second if it was oil, and would be gone in a short amount of time...worse for water.

 

 

Not all fuel tanks were self sealing. And "planes smoke up much too quickly"? Planes IRL would too, if you hit the right parts.

Again: see gun camera footage.

I'm not saying the effects are perfect, they are far from it, but if we want the devs to take note of anything, we need to make it clear exactly what we think is implausible.

In this case, graphical representation of different fluid types in the air.

Edited August 30, 2014 by LeafyPredicament

[Rjel]

Not all fuel tanks were self sealing. And "planes smoke up much too quickly"? Planes IRL would too, if you hit the right parts.

Again: see gun camera footage.

I'm not saying the effects are perfect, they are far from it, but if we want the devs to take note of anything, we need to make it clear exactly what we think is implausible.

In this case, graphical representation of different fluid types in the air.

I second that. I've watched an awful lot of guncam from WWII, mostly British, German and (of course) U.S. There is enough of it out there that, if someone wanted to, they could find a clip to support their point in this discussion. If anything I'd vote for a more random effect. We might get that further into the development life of BoS.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Rjel

[Livai]

Not all fuel tanks were self sealing. And "planes smoke up much too quickly"? Planes IRL would too, if you hit the right parts.

I dont think that hits from 15 mm, 20 mm, 23 mm or 37 mm  the fuel tank would be still self sealing?  Hits from 7 mm and lower maybe if there are not many from them. I like the Domino Effect for example I hit a plane no smoke to see but after a second the plane start to smoke from alone then it starts to catch fire and the pilots ball out. Some effects and damage repeat, I notice.

[Leaf]

I dont think that hits from 15 mm, 20 mm, 23 mm or 37 mm  the fuel tank would be still self sealing?  Hits from 7 mm and lower maybe if there are not many from them. I like the Domino Effect for example I hit a plane no smoke to see but after a second the plane start to smoke from alone then it starts to catch fire and the pilots ball out. Some effects and damage repeat, I notice.

 

That's true of course. Self sealing fuel tanks (early ones, at least) only protected against smaller calibre munitions. A 30 mm would leave the tank shredded regardless of elastic rubber compounds. Or so I would imagine.

[Shadylurker]

Not all fuel tanks were self sealing. And "planes smoke up much too quickly"? Planes IRL would too, if you hit the right parts.

Again: see gun camera footage.

I'm not saying the effects are perfect, they are far from it, but if we want the devs to take note of anything, we need to make it clear exactly what we think is implausible.

In this case, graphical representation of different fluid types in the air.

 

 

Yes I know this, the Japanese never used it AFAIK, hence the reputation of zeros burning.  German aircraft had it, and Russian had it but according to reports it didn't work very well... It is implausible imo for aircraft to dump massive streaks of oil, water, and fire after small amounts of mg fire.  If a fuel tank is hit by a 20-30mm that wing is going to be gone or severely damaged,  very little fire would probably even result from it, in this case I would agree to the gratuitis amounts of smoke/mist in game, but it wouldn't do that for much longer then a few seconds as the massive hole in the tank lets fuel out in Gallons per second.

 

 

I mean look at this:  they are laying into the engines and wings and you rarely see fire, yes it happens but of them only 1 looks to continue burning, 2 look to just flare up.  most of the footage is just pulverizing airframe and explosions from the HE rounds

 

Edited August 30, 2014 by Shadylurker

[Mikey]

Yes I know this, the Japanese never used it AFAIK, hence the reputation of zeros burning.  German aircraft had it, and Russian had it but according to reports it didn't work very well... It is implausible imo for aircraft to dump massive streaks of oil, water, and fire after small amounts of mg fire.  If a fuel tank is hit by a 20-30mm that wing is going to be gone or severely damaged,  very little fire would probably even result from it, in this case I would agree to the gratuitis amounts of smoke/mist in game, but it wouldn't do that for much longer then a few seconds as the massive hole in the tank lets fuel out in Gallons per second.

 

 

I mean look at this:  they are laying into the engines and wings and you rarely see fire, yes it happens but of them only 1 looks to continue burning, 2 look to just flare up.  most of the footage is just pulverizing airframe and explosions from the HE rounds

 

i Agree with you %100 i think there should be alot more components that are able to take damage, not just "engine" radiators"fuselage" but some more parts that make the way a plane go down much more variable. instead of it being always, my engine is locking up from 2 bullets, or im on fire time to bail.

[Sparrer]

I feel the same way

Too many smoke and easy fires


BoS have some very nice DM effects, they are very well done, congratulations for the team for doing that. But the implement of those effects are quite bit exaggerated in my opinion. Is a matter of frequency of smoke and fire in every plane punishment

I hope for a DM revision

[SYN_Jedders]

I remember when RoF implemented aircraft fires in their dev cycle. They were happening all the time and it got to be overdone. Low and behold along came the next patch and if i see an aircraft on fire once a week it's a major event. I hope they will turn it down a bit aswell. I like the effect, just not the frequency.

[Leaf]

Very interesting video. If the devs ever need the sound of a Mk 108, it's to be found in there. 

I see quite a bit of smoke pouring from engines etc. in the clip; I generally think it's not the "ease" with which fires and smoke are obtained, but rather the way it looks.

 

Let's think about all the things that can leak:

 

- fuel tanks

- fuel lines

- engine oil

- radiators

- radiator fluid lines

- hydraulic lines

 

In a fairly small aircraft, any shots fired are very likely to hit some of these components, creating smoke, vapour and possibly fire. Reason the B17's don't trail as much smoke (although they do seen at 1:22, 1:25, 1:34, 1:55 etc.) is because the same leak-able components are spread over a wider area and are thus harder to hit, since they are less densely packed into the airframe.

 

 

SO, to sum up, I think that:

The ease with which certain components are damaged is completely plausible given the number of factors (density of liquid-storage within airframe, armament used, rate of fire etc.) . Evidence for the frequency of airborne leakages (by the plane, you pervert!) can be found in many, many gun camera films.

 

However, water/radiator fluid should be a bit "fluffier" (i.e. should disperse more easily) since it's basically a cloud (imagine a really, really stretched cumulus); it should also run out faster, given the rate of leakage.

Fuel seems a bit too opaque and doesn't run out as quickly as it should, as described above.

Engine oil should not produce such a thick, dispersed trail. It should be thinner, due to the higher viscosity. Due to its viscosity it should also not run out as quickly as the two above.

So yeah. Nothing wrong with frequency of effects, given historical evidence; just the graphics may need some tweaking. 
But hey, let's wait for release.

Edited August 30, 2014 by LeafyPredicament