My biggest issue

[Kling]

Is the constant creation of smoke when a plane is damaged.

 

First of all I must say that the game is coming along nicely. Tried it online yesterday for the first time in ages. In general I start up the game once a month just to see whats new and to stay in the loop.

 

However, even using the 2mgs of the 109/190 or any plane for that matter will still make any enemy fighter smoke as soon as they are hit.

It makes the game seem very arcadish.

 

I would assume that there should be damage that doesnt immediately create smoke. I know there is sometimes but most often any hits on an aircraft makes it smoke.

 

After 1min in a dogfight there are smokeing planes everywhere. Yesterday(offline) I counted 6 of 9 planes flying around with smoke and I almost laughed at the absurd sight.

 

On top if that the smoke itself from damaged aircraft looks pretty 2d and I hope they will look into that. On the other hand the smoke coming from the ground in Stalingrad looks amazing so I know they have the "know how"!

 

Anyway I hope they will still look into the DMs. Currently almost all planes seem über fragile and there is really no need for cannons when 2 Mgs can easily bring down airplanes. I caught myself flying the 109 and not using the cannon because I shot down Laggs and Yaks in fire without cannon.

 

What is your opinion on this?

Edited August 29, 2014 by Kling

[Finkeren]

There's lots of damage that doesn't create smoke, and half the "smoke" you're seeing isn't smoke at all but vapor trails from a leaking fuel tank or raditor.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Finkeren

[Kling]

exactly... in which case they are overdone

Edited August 29, 2014 by Kling

[Mac_Messer]

Anyway I hope they will still look into the DMs. Currently almost all planes seem über fragile and there is really no need for cannons when 2 Mgs can easily bring down airplanes. I caught myself flying the 109 and not using the cannon because I shot down Laggs and Yaks in fire without cannon.

 

What is your opinion on this?

I like the sound of this. Although particulary the LaGG3 I remember should soak up mg fire like a sponge without much problem.

[LuftManu]

Overdone compared to what? 

 

I think the effect is really nice now, other case is the easy they catch fire, but take in mind that in 46 we were cutting wings and destroying planes almost as easy as here, and it damage model was not so accurate,(internal things) So it can be that with the caliber of the guns we have here you can really burn the planes quickly

[Leaf]

Regarding the damage model, it didn't take many hits to shoot down an enemy aircraft, especially if you hit vital parts:

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675034793_8th-Air-Force_FW-190-aircraft_aircraft-trying-evasive-action_plane-flying-over-clouds 

[steppenwolf]

I agree with Kling.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFOB4JiI9fE

[LuftManu]

I agree with Kling.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFOB4JiI9fE

 

That was me yesterday.

 

I got some lag, hit in the Fuel tank with some hits of 23mm and later, I was hit by two 7,62 mm at less than 100m in a plane that it was famous because of his "burnings" , in the last He I wasted more than 50 23mm gun shels and 200 Mg

Edited August 29, 2014 by Manu_vc

[Dakpilot]

The least pleasing part of the smoke is the square "tail" it really gives me a bit of a throwback to old IL-2  and although I have seen plenty of real life footage with the amount of damage smoke that there is now it is not always that way, sometimes less IS more and I would not mind a little toning down  In a perfect world it would start light and get heavier, with a bit of randomizer thrown in for good measure...  however I know this is a bit of a dream. On the whole the effects are v good if leaning a little too much Hollywood   

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Finkeren]

Anyway I hope they will still look into the DMs. Currently almost all planes seem über fragile and there is really no need for cannons when 2 Mgs can easily bring down airplanes. I caught myself flying the 109 and not using the cannon because I shot down Laggs and Yaks in fire without cannon.

 

While I agree, that certain kinds of damage seem to happen a bit too often, I disagree on the rest.

 

It takes a good amount of firing time to reliably bring down a fighter in BoS using only LMGs. Even the ultra fast firing ShKAS on the Yak-1 usually takes several seconds of fire to do fatal damage.

 

Cannon rounds are very powerful yes, but that's not too surprising. Especially the German Minengeschoss had a fearsome reputation.

 

Regardless of what reputation some planes might have for being able sustain serious damage, it doesn't change the fact that all aircraft ever built have been extremely fragile machines. All of them, even the ones with a reputation for being "rugged" or "heavily armoured". A "rugged" aircraft usually just means being able to continue flying with serious damage, not that it's hard to do that kind of damage.

 

During WW2, there was a tendecy towards installing bigger guns in the aircraft, the Germans being the most extreme. Don't believe it when you read, that this was done because aircraft became more heavily armoured and thus harder to shoot down, it's bollocks. The heavier guns with less firing time were installed, because the speed of aircombat had increased dramatically, often giving a pilot only a fraction of a second to do fatal damage. Therefore there was a demand for weapons, that could bring down an aircraft with a single hit.

 

20mm guns were plenty powerful enough to bring down any aircraft in WW2 and beyond. Even today a single 20 or 30mm autocannon is standard armament on fighter aircraft, and it's all that's needed because:

 

All aircraft are fragile.

[SeriousFox]

I think in BoS it's really easy to catch a fire when hit.. bit overdone imo

Edited August 29, 2014 by SeriousFox

[Leaf]

Who are we to judge how easy planes are to shoot down?  
Unless someone actually tests the damage model for each plane, against each gun and ammunition type, and compares it with historical data (which the devs already have done), it's the same as an FM discussion.

"I think that..." isn't going to convince the developers of anything.

 

What I would say needs tweaking are:

a.) tracers

b.) the explosion effect of planes hitting the ground

c.) oil tank leaks dispersing too quickly

 

a.) and b.) can be seen very well in this video: http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675041082_German-troops_aerial-combat_pilot-in-cockpit_Russian-planes

Edited August 29, 2014 by LeafyPredicament

[startrekmike]

This is probably something that we have been spoiled with ijn other WWII combat sims in the past, I always felt that other sims did not really do weapon damage very well at all but I can understand how someone who might have a lot of time in another WWII sim might find the adjustment to more powerful weapons a bit difficult.

 

  Aircraft store fuel in the wings, when you shot them enough, they leak, the 109 even puts it's radiator in the wings, that also produces smoke when shot, either way, the wings are a HUGE target and are going to get hit and product vapor/smoke.

[steppenwolf]

Here's a DM test. Can you shoot out the tire of one of your wingmen while on the runway using the gunner's position? With one bullet? I don't have the pie chart to back it up, but I think it should pop. I don't have the game so I can't test this myself.

[Pupo]

overall  i think the game has way to fragile DM as well.

 

Im a lousy shoot, and shoting in this game is really hard, yet every bullet i land is usually a fatal damage. Anything that touches the engine = instant fireball. It will be next to impossible to come up with actual data to back our feelings.

 

I do like the effects. A fire does look scary as it gets. I even feel bad for the poor AI bot i set ablaze every time i shoot. And radiator leeks look as problematic as they are. Fuel leaks do seem a bit overdone....

[Dakpilot]

 

That is the effect which has a bit of an immersion dampener for me

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[LoneMerc]

Honestly I was thinking this myself that the DM was a bit too weak. It dawned on my when large bombers He111 and as a Pe2 just gets knocked out of the sky too easy and flames alot. I'm enjoying myself even flying them but wish they would take a bit more damage, but then again if its a critical hit its a critical hit. Just seems a bit too often.

[Leaf]

Considering the massive stresses placed on an airframe in combat, 20mm HE shells should be devastating. Considering also the massive amounts of flammable materials onboard an aircraft, I think flames shouldn't be too rare. It also depends on where you hit it, I've had plenty of times where a Lagg 3 has absorbed 4-5 cannon shells.

Edited August 29, 2014 by LeafyPredicament

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

2j3fu4h.jpg

 

That is the effect which has a bit of an immersion dampener for me

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

It would be nicer if the trails were longer to facilitate a "fade out" of the smoke the longer the trail gets.

 

I'm sure it'll be rectified.

[Kling]

I agree with Kling.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFOB4JiI9fE

This demonstrates EXACTLY my point! Pls dont let this game become like WT!

[Finkeren]

This demonstrates EXACTLY my point! Pls dont let this game become like WT!

 

Que? This demonstrate the exact opposite of WT. The different parts of the plane don't have "hit points" like some simplified DMs and therefore damage can be instantaneous. The individual hits either ignate the fuel tanks or they don't. There is no cumulative damage that makes it take a certain number of hits to ignite a tank. That doesn't mean damage can't be cumulative, a leaking fuel tank is more likely to ignite than an intact one, and a mostly empty tank ingnites more easily than a full one.

BTW: You're in luck: The new update includes DM tweaks to the fuel fires on the twin engined planes.

[Leaf]

Que? This demonstrate the exact opposite of WT. The different parts of the plane don't have "hit points" like some simplified DMs and therefore damage can be instantaneous. The individual hits either ignate the fuel tanks or they don't. There is no cumulative damage that makes it take a certain number of hits to ignite a tank. 

 

Couldn't have said it any better.

[Vaxxtx]

How much of the DM in BoS is intricate?

 

As in not WT "hitpoints" on the whole plane, but how much is modeled?

 

Is it close to DCS? As in you get a fluid line hit and it takes out pressure to your controls then you have to really fight to limp home? Or is it you get hit in a broader area and it has a % chance to catch on fire etc? Anyone know the details on it?

 

Going by that video of BoS it does seem a bit overdone. After watching 100's of WWII guncam videos the only "few hit" fire/smoke that I saw consistanly was on Japan's A6M....which was very well known for its unprotected fuel tank.

[Finkeren]

I'd say it's more than halfway there, but obviously simplified and maybe even a bit simpler than ClOD (though I think the end result is just as believable or better)

[FuriousMeow]

WWII fighters are cable/chain driven flight controls, not hydraulics.

[Sokol1]

Here's a DM test. Can you shoot out the tire of one of your wingmen while on the runway using the gunner's position? With one bullet? I don't have the pie chart to back it up, but I think it should pop. I don't have the game so I can't test this myself.

 

 

Tested. Tires have no DM, you can spend all Il-2 rear gunner ammo on tire of another Il-2 on runway that nothing happens. Only if you hit the struts, the gear fallen - in one piece.

 

On the same way, all ammo dont "saw off" the tail of other il-2 hitting then from side, but if you shoot at you own fin (rudder/stab), the whole rear section of fuselage come down....

 

There's another topic people arguing about il-2 easiness to catch fire (or not), this is true but if you hit on appropriated spot, around rear gunner - in fact I aim at then   from side - few hits "fried" the poor.

But you can spend all 12,7mm on wings or around water/oil radiator that only do secondary damage (leakages).

 

Sokol1

[Vaxxtx]

WWII fighters are cable/chain driven flight controls, not hydraulics.

I assume thats a reply to my post.

 

Not sure why that has anything to do with my questions. I was asking about the DM using DCS as an example. But thats for that tidbit of information I guess.

[Livai]

Its a  very different feeling BoS vs RoF. I remember with RoF how hard it was to aim that the plane catch fire. With BoS its is much more easier? If the engine or a other part for example from He-111 catch fire. I just need to wait a second to get the kill because the wing breaks or the pilot is dead from fire. I not really need to spend much bullets for a plane. Even if I hurt only a plane on their wing a little. Wait a second and the wing breaks.

 

If you start to fire at a plane. A single tracer are 4 bullets sometimes 8 bullets that hit the plane DM. If a mod would lower this, maybe this could improve that the planes not get down that fast or catch fire?

Edited August 29, 2014 by Superghostboy

[Finkeren]

 

 

I assume thats a reply to my post.

 

Not sure why that has anything to do with my questions. I was asking about the DM using DCS as an example. But thats for that tidbit of information I guess.

 

He was refering to this:

 

 

Is it close to DCS? As in you get a fluid line hit and it takes out pressure to your controls then you have to really fight to limp home? Or is it you get hit in a broader area and it has a % chance to catch on fire etc? Anyone know the details on it?

 

 

[FuriousMeow]

Because it isn't applicable measure, like saying that the individual prop blades can be damaged in BoS - can sections of the turbine be blown away from inside the engine nacelle in DCS? No, but doesn't matter as not samesies.

 

Does the wing or airframe get damaged in DCS and barely hold on only to possibly be overstressed and fall of later? No, it doesn't - but it does in BoS, and that truly is limping home - holding your heading and keeping it within a very small envelope so it doesn't literally fall apart. DCS doesn't do that, but it doesn't matter. You also pay 3 times as much for a plane in DCS, and the come in individual self-contained modules, so you are paying for the very finite systems modelling and damage to those systems. I'd rather a structure get damaged, but just barely hold on falling off just as you land compared to a single aileron rod being shot out when the entire aileron could just be shot off or partially damaged anyway and it would be virtually the same thing. But then, doesn't matter. DCS is over there, BoS is over here. DCS do what DCS do, BoS do what BoS do - and they don't ever cross paths because they represent totally different conflicts/time periods/theaters.

Edited August 29, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[Finkeren]

Well said FuriousMeow.

 

Each sim has something to offer.

[LizLemon]

For reference here is the DM for the Il-2 in BoS.

 

 

I would guess that 777/1cgs is doing something to model things like control cable/push-rod damage, hydraulics, radio, ect damage then hitboxes. Maybe a sort of RNG ala WT? 

 

For comparison here is CloDs hitboxes.

[FuriousMeow]

 

If you start to fire at a plane. A single tracer are 4 bullets sometimes 8 bullets that hit the plane DM. If a mod would lower this, maybe this could improve that the planes not get down that fast or catch fire?

 

So you think that tracers are the only element fired from the machine guns or cannons that do damage? They contain the damage of the previous x number of rounds from the last tracer? The only way to damage a plane is with the tracers hitting the target? Is that what you are saying?

Edited August 30, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[Vaxxtx]

Because it isn't applicable measure, like saying that the individual prop blades can be damaged in BoS - can sections of the turbine be blown away from inside the engine nacelle in DCS? No, but doesn't matter as not samesies.

 

Does the wing or airframe get damaged in DCS and barely hold on only to possibly be overstressed and fall of later? No, it doesn't - but it does in BoS, and that truly is limping home - holding your heading and keeping it within a very small envelope so it doesn't literally fall apart. DCS doesn't do that, but it doesn't matter. You also pay 3 times as much for a plane in DCS, and the come in individual self-contained modules, so you are paying for the very finite systems modelling and damage to those systems. I'd rather a structure get damaged, but just barely hold on falling off just as you land compared to a single aileron rod being shot out when the entire aileron could just be shot off or partially damaged anyway and it would be virtually the same thing. But then, doesn't matter. DCS is over there, BoS is over here. DCS do what DCS do, BoS do what BoS do - and they don't ever cross paths because they represent totally different conflicts/time periods/theaters.

 

I assume you do not play DCS (your lack of knowledge about it is obvious), and Ill also assume you have no idea what I was asking.

 

When did a question about how BoS modeled damage (with examples of how one does model certain damage), and to what level, translated into a DCS vs BoS post? Why are your brining up price of DCS modules? LOL. Defensive over your favorite game much? Wow...

 

Thanks LizLemon for that post. That is what I was looking for.

[FuriousMeow]

No, I was being very clear on the difference between DCS and BoS. I was outlining why there is a difference in the systems modeled. Also, LizLemon's post shows highlighted boxes in a 3D model and another model without anything highlighted - that shows nothing. As a matter of fact, it provides nothing. As I've said, DCS A-10 and DCS P-51 modules don't have bending airframes that later break. They are either damaged and intact, or removed. BoS, on the other hand, bends and breaks.

 

I own both DCS A-10 and DCS P-51. Hence why I say comparisons have no place. DCS P-51 costs $50 just for it at release, BoS including the terrain and everything that makes it theater relevant costs $60 for the standard and $90 for premium at pre-order. If I bought just LaGG-3 for $50, I'd expect the damage model to include the navigation lights individually being shot out.

 

Why would I be defensive? I like BoS, I like DCS. I don't ever bring up comparisons, I also don't go to the boards of any other title and compare it to any other title. That's something people do that have to reassure themselves that their product they purchased is the best, while those who buy all don't sit and nitpick - but can retort those who do because they do own them all and see through the charade. If you truly cared, you'd care about the fact that BoS' damage model has parts that bend and break based on damage and stress. You won't find an A-10 rolling down the flight line looking at a F4U after a bad landing - but you can find a 109 in BoS doing that.

 

Again, LizLemon's post added nothing - it shows nothing. It just has highlighted internal structures for CloD while the BoS model is missing the internal highlights. Can you tell from LizLemon's post the the damage model can do this.. ?

 

 

Travelling across the terrain with a bent fuselage

 

and then hit a bump and broke it off

Edited August 30, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[LizLemon]

Also, LizLemon's post shows highlighted boxes in a 3D model and another model without anything highlighted - that shows nothing........

 

Again, LizLemon's post added nothing - it shows nothing. It just has highlighted internal structures for CloD while the BoS model is missing the internal highlights.

 

What I posted is an image of the hitboxes BoS is using for the Il2.

 

This image was posted by Loft when I asked him a few questions about the DM and how the game handles hitboxes. According to him that screenshot is of final DM hitboxes.

 

It is NOT an image of the 3d model for the Il2 you see in game. In fact you won't see anything in that screenshot in game, ever. Its what the game is using to calculate collisions and bullet impacts with different parts of the aircraft. 

 

So I'd say that screen shot adds quite a lot to the discussion, even if you happen to misunderstand what it is showing. 

 

Here is a link that might help you understand what hitboxes are, Furiousmeow; https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Hitbox

 

EDIT: the Clod screenshot is not of "highlighted internal structure" - its the hitboxes for the spitfire in Clod. Again, these are things normally invisible to the player and used for calculating what parts are damaged by bullet impacts.

Edited August 30, 2014 by LizLemon

[FuriousMeow]

No, it is not the 3D model of the plane - it is a 3D model though. You do realize that is how the damage model frame is arrived at? They don't just go "boxes!" - it has to have a 3D model to it.

 

The fact of the matter is the CloD screenshot shows highlighted internal structures, the BoS model does not - that doesn't mean they aren't modelled. You can damage guns individually, just the same as CloD. But the CloD model you kindly provided highlights the 3D model boxes for the guns that can be damaged - while the BoS model does not - but you can damage the guns in BoS.

 

I know what you are showing, and I know how you are intending to show it.

Edited August 30, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[LizLemon]

No, it is not the 3D model of the plane - it is a 3D model though. You do realize that is how the damage model frame is arrived at? They don't just go "boxes!" - it has to have a 3D model to it.

 

Yes, it is a model of the hitboxes for the Il2. Which is what my original post (do I have quote it?) said.

 

I think you aren't understanding what the term hitboxes mean. The visual damage that results is just that, visual damage. The post I was replying to was asking how the game calculates the damage.

 

 

The fact of the matter is the CloD screenshot shows highlighted internal structures, the BoS model does not - that doesn't mean they aren't modelled. 

 

No it does't. The internal structure of the Spitfire is much more complex then that screenshot. It is only showing the external skin of the aircraft and the hitboxes.

 

 

You can damage guns individually, just the same as CloD. But the CloD model you kindly provided highlights the 3D model boxes for the guns that can be damaged - while the BoS model does not - but you can damage the guns in BoS.

 

The BoS model is just the hitboxes. Do you understand this? Because the BoS model clearly shows the guns present as well.

 

Also, that CloD screenshot only shows the hitboxes for the guns, not the gun models themselves - just like the BoS screenshot. 

 

If the "highlighting" is really an issue for you, then sorry, but this is the screenshot Loft gave me.

 

 

I know what you are showing, and I know how you are intending to show it.

 

 

I think this is a big presumption that is borderline trolling on your part.

 

Don't twist my words Furiousmeow.

[VR-DriftaholiC]

That image also seems to show all the places the plane can break in half

[Livai]

So you think that tracers are the only element fired from the machine guns or cannons that do damage? They contain the damage of the previous x number of rounds from the last tracer? The only way to damage a plane is with the tracers hitting the target? Is that what you are saying?

 

I dont think that tracers are the only element fired from the machine guns or cannons that add damage to the plane. Yes, a single tracer are 4 bullets fired from [Cannons] or 8 bullets fired from [MGs]. 

In my eyes this boost the damage on the Plane DM.

 

4 x (damage value from [Cannons bullets] + damage value from other elements) = ?

8 x (damage value from [MG bullets] + damage value from other elements) = ?

 

The result that comes here out is the damage that you can do with a only single hit. And here are not the AA or Flak included.  And yes they contain the damage of the previous x number of rounds from the last tracer where you notice a hit on the plane.