He 111 on transport duty

[Sim]

The He 111 is wonderful, love the details. But.. it's modeled as a pure bomber. Correct me if I am wrong, but during the winter timeframe - He 111s weren't exactly running a lot of bombing missions (if any at all). They were running transport missions to the Stalingrad pocket.

 

How hard would it be to add some sort of "Cargo" payload option? With 1.2 tons of weight and an ability to jettison it with parachutes? I know you can probably take bombs and assume you are carrying cargo.. but that's not really the same.

 

Does someone know a bit more on He 111s employed in transport duty? I know there were dedicated He 111 transport squadrons, which probably got some He 111s modified to accommodate more cargo? What about all the KG gruppen that were suddenly tasked with transport missions. Did they fly with full crew capacity? Were they able to evacuated wounded soldiers?

Edited August 24, 2014 by Sim

[LukeFF]

Yes, according to Stalingrad: The Air Battle, these He 111 bomber units took part in transport missions starting on 29 November:

• II. and III./KG 27
• Stab, I., and II./KG 55
• Stab and I./KG 100

[Sim]

Yep, and at least the following dedicated He 111 transport groups were involved in Stalingrad airlift:

• Kampfgruppe z.b.V. 5
• Kampfgruppe z.b.V. 20
• Kampfgruppe z.b.V. 23

[csThor]

I'm not totally convinced that droppable supply containers were used as long as Pitomnik and Gumrak were "open to business" (so to speak). After all the He 111 began its career as high-speed cargo and passenger aircraft and it would make sense if the aircraft's interior space was used to the max for supplies (including the bomb shaft) while the outer ETCs (up to 4) would be loaded with containers similar in size to an SC 500 (but not droppable IIRC). This was often done when units were transfered to other airfields so I guess something similar would be done during the airlift. Remember part of the airlift was also getting out wounded/specialists and while the He 111 could not carry as many people as a Ju 52 I don't think the responsible officers would squander any space.

Edited August 24, 2014 by csThor

[Feathered_IV]

Parachute drops were not that common for the Germans. I think it was the numbers of available chutes that restricted it.

 

Some sort of immersive unload/embarkation game mechanic is really needed so the player can fly in, land and unload, then fly out again to return home and claim their mission points. It would probably be much more satisfying than just doing a flypast and hitting the relevant key.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Just use your imagination.

 

Load up some bombs, pretend it's supplies, take off, fly route,, land at Stalingrad, taxi to dispersal, wait several minutes to be virtually unloaded and reloaded, taxi back, take off etc etc. Just pretend the bomb weight are stores to be delivered. It's not as if there is a game mechanic that rewards delivering stores, as opposed to just flying with bombs to simulate weight,

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I am yet to play, but I like this idea.

[Feathered_IV]

Just use your imagination.

 

Load up some bombs, pretend it's supplies, take off, fly route,, land at Stalingrad, taxi to dispersal, wait several minutes to be virtually unloaded and reloaded, taxi back, take off etc etc. Just pretend the bomb weight are stores to be delivered. It's not as if there is a game mechanic that rewards delivering stores, as opposed to just flying with bombs to simulate weight,

 

Tried that.  It's not really the same. 

[HagarTheHorrible]

Tried that.  It's not really the same.

 

Maybe it's just all the practice I get, having been married for the last twenty years. You get to a point were you're just grateful you can remember , at the end, what you where trying to imagine in the first place.

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

as long the game would not count dropped/unloaded cargo (what i dont know if it can do that), it would be a waste of time to modell such cargocanisters IMHO

As AI the Heinkels can fly without bombs during supply missions.

 

i personaly would love they would ad the following bomboptions:

8xSC250

32xSC50

 

and i hope in the future german bomb can set in flight to 'delay/no delay'

Edited August 24, 2014 by III/JG53Frankyboy

[Tab]

 

 

The He 111 is wonderful, love the details. But.. it's modeled as a pure bomber.

it was said there will be supply missions too.

[FlatSpinMan]

Good idea Hagar, but if the game could reward players for doing it it would inculcate some good habits that would flow across to multiplayer, ie, getting a twin engined bird to a certain place at a certain time has value.

[C-Bag]

According to the stuff I've read and Stalingrad.net 91% of all missions were not drops so the canister idea is moot IMHO. They needed to get wounded,sick, and mail out too. Yup, basically a suicide mission and they lost a ton of transports, mostly Ju 52's and a bunch of 111's too. There's just no way you could parachute drop that much stuff accurately, that's why they had to land. Talk about a scary challenge!

[Flack88]

I like the sound of that. Would make for an interesting singleplayer/co-op mission.

[HagarTheHorrible]

I think the problem with transport missions is not the transport thing per say, but all the things around about it.  It's the enemy flak and fighters, it's the support of friendly forces. The transports are simply flying from A - B  and back to A again.  Unless there is a resources management sub program that presents challenges then you may as well fly with a load of bombs for all the difference it makes.  The beauty is flying through and surviving clouds of flak or co-ordinating protective fighters, preferably human, that takes resources and on-line co-ordination that unfortunately often as not does not exist.

[216th_Peterla]

You can see reflection of tiny windows on the skin of the Heinkel or maybe I just imagine that? Just check it and give me your opinion and forgive me if Im wrong. I think I see them today while observing a guy in a server. Maybe a hidden skin for transport or just access panels or registers...uhmm

Anyways the idea of transport missions is very welcome.

[C-Bag]

Personally I find AI AAA deadly. Not to mention the route and numerous air fields they have to fly in and out of and flying over what was now enemy (Russian) lines was crazy on their own. Add to that the Russians learned to jam their homing beacon and their routes, setting up AAA. Then you had to land at a strip that was strewn with bomb craters and downed aircraft! I could see this as the most challenging mission you could try and run. Right up there with trying to daylight bomb Germany for the Allies. Few came back.

 

I guess what you are saying Hagar is it would take some co-op either from friendly AI and real mission building to pull it off. I agree. I'm just trying to say there was no semi gravy runs where they just pushed some crates on parachutes like they can do now back then. It was far more blood and guts, down and dirty.

Edited August 24, 2014 by C-Bag

[HagarTheHorrible]

Personally I find AI AAA deadly. Not to mention the route and numerous air fields they have to fly in and out of and flying over what was now enemy (Russian) lines was crazy on their own. Add to that the Russians learned to jam their homing beacon and their routes, setting up AAA. Then you had to land at a strip that was strewn with bomb craters and downed aircraft! I could see this as the most challenging mission you could try and run. Right up there with trying to daylight bomb Germany for the Allies. Few came back.

 

I guess what you are saying Hagar is it would take some co-op either from friendly AI and real mission building to pull it off. I agree. I'm just trying to say there was no semi gravy runs where they just pushed some crates on parachutes like they can do now back then. It was far more blood and guts, down and dirty.

 

 

I'm not saying that transport op's weren't challenging, for all the reasons you mention, it's just that the challenges just aren't there in BoS.  The Flak might be accurate and deadly, but it hardly feels daunting to fly through, it's a bit anaemic, and being shot down by the A.I is not in way comparable to being shot down by another, real, live person.  Again, being protected by A.i fighters is just too frustratingly hit and miss, it's not the same as being protected by real people or even a mixture of real people and bot's and that takes planning and co-ordination.  In fact successful transport op's depend on planning and co-ordination far more than simply flying from A 2 B.   I think the problem for BoS and pure transport op's is that it is, at the same time, potentially too lethal, but ironically, at the same time, not challenging enough to hold any long term interest.

[Sokol1]

Does someone know a bit more on He 111s employed in transport duty? I know there were dedicated He 111 transport squadrons, which probably got some He 111s modified to accommodate more cargo? What about all the KG gruppen that were suddenly tasked with transport missions. Did they fly with full crew capacity? Were they able to evacuated wounded soldiers?

 

Some about He 111 usage on airlift here: http://www.stalingrad.net/german-hq/the-stalingrad-airlift/facts_airlift.htm

 

 

From "gameplay" POV, accomplish a supply mission will give greater sense of accomplishment than a ordinary bombing mission.

 

Sokol1

Edited August 24, 2014 by Sokol1

[HagarTheHorrible]

 

 

 

 

From "gameplay" POV, accomplish a supply mission will give greater sense of accomplishment than a ordinary bombing mission.

 

Sokol1

 

 

Why ?

[Freycinet]

Some about He 111 usage on airlift here: http://www.stalingrad.net/german-hq/the-stalingrad-airlift/facts_airlift.htm

 

Sokol1

Very interesting reading, especially the pages that describe the flights for each month of the siege.

 

AFAIK parachute drops were a last-ditch measure at the very end of the encirclement, after the airfields were lost.

[jadebullet]

They have already stated that the career mode will have changing roles based on the time period you are flying, and they specifically mentioned that German bombers will be flying transport missions. 

 

I personally can't wait. It was a big part of the Battle of Stalingrad and one that is extremely interesting. 

[Sparrer]

+1000000000000

 

For a cargo he111, with airdrop (if its really made this way)

 

The gameplay will improve a lot with a smal effort

 

Please dont let us press t to make a air supply like in old il2 online wars(bos even don't have t smoke )

[354thFG_Leifr]

A nudge to say that the Syndicate server is now running a fantastic new mission involving resupply runs and limited aircraft (for the 190, HE-111 and G2).

Points are awarded for successful landing of the resupply variant at the relevant airfield in the German pocket.

[Freycinet]

The challenge of landing and taking off twice is a big part of why supply missions can be great: All the important supplying of the Kessel involved landings, so I don't see air containers as very important even though they would of course look cool.

[kurtj]

Just flew the He111 transport route last night on MP, successfully landed, which increased the available slots at the encircled airfield. Then took off and returned to where I started with another successful landing.

 

No bombs dropped, no enemy AC encountered (there were 10), but still one of the most satisfying sim experienced I've had.

 

Also, navigating by sight/landmarks is a good challenge but absolutely can be done. It requires a lot of attention, though!

[kestrel79]

Yes! I want more cool mission ideas like this built into the game. Every game has fighter and bomber stuff. Let's start getting some new gameplay features that keep things fresh! Sounds great.

[LukeFF]

Very interesting reading, especially the pages that describe the flights for each month of the siege.

 

AFAIK parachute drops were a last-ditch measure at the very end of the encirclement, after the airfields were lost.

 

Correct, even on the last day of the siege there were He 111s that attempted to make supply drops, but they could not find a suitable drop zone due to all the fire and smoke covering the city.

[Bullets]

Dropping crates by parachutes sounds awesome!! 

[Pharoah]

I love the idea of flying there, offloading cargo (probably loading up on wounded) and flying back to your base for points, etc. I know its easy to use the VOR-thingy to find Pitomnik but does it work on a reciprocal heading like a VOR does? finding a small white airfield in winter on a white landscape with a limited map, few distinguishable landscape features, the lack of a dedicated navigator and flying a large twin-engined bomber at the same time is fun....but challenging. 

[[JG2]Surf]

Some about He 111 usage on airlift here: http://www.stalingrad.net/german-hq/the-stalingrad-airlift/facts_airlift.htm

 

 

From "gameplay" POV, accomplish a supply mission will give greater sense of accomplishment than a ordinary bombing mission.

 

Sokol1

 

Great post.

 

Thanks.

Funny. Back in the day...early 1990's...AIR WARRIOR modeled resupply missions, as well are parachute drops onto degraded airfields to capture, as key to a successful operation. Throw in human-manned gunner positions in bombers *the B17 could have nine humans manning every gunner position* and what was once old is oh, so very new again.

 

Gota love this software.

[Sim]

After reading some on the air lift - my understanding is that parachute drops came into effect once Milch took over air lift ops from Fiebig on January 16th. This was also the time Pitomnik fell and the Gumrak was not yet prepared for transport landings. They tried to drop the canisters near the Gumrak airfield, but retrieving them was a complicated affair as the 6th Army had no fuel and no horses left by that time. Not to mention the containers were hard to locate - hence an attempt was made to dye them in bright color. Apparently by that time parachute drops were carried out mostly on nighttime. Also, once Gumrak fell - the Germans lost their last radio beacon and radio navigation and night ops were impossible from then on.

 

Another fun fact is that He 111 transport crews would only fill the amount of fuel they needed for the mission and would fill one of the tanks with motor vehicle fuel for transport.

[Feathered_IV]

Fantastic bit of information there Sim, thank you!

[kestrel79]

 

Funny. Back in the day...early 1990's...AIR WARRIOR modeled resupply missions, as well are parachute drops onto degraded airfields to capture, as key to a successful operation. Throw in human-manned gunner positions in bombers *the B17 could have nine humans manning every gunner position* and what was once old is oh, so very new again.

 

 

Air Warrior was my first ww2 game. I used to LOVE to fly C-47 resupply and paratroop drop missions to capture bases. So much fun. Also loved "deathstar" B-17 missions where we'd have 9 guys in the plane all manning different gun turrets trying to bomb a factory deep behind enemy lines. Wish newer flight sim games would add some of these gameplay elements.

[[JG2]Surf]

Air Warrior was my first ww2 game. I used to LOVE to fly C-47 resupply and paratroop drop missions to capture bases. So much fun. Also loved "deathstar" B-17 missions where we'd have 9 guys in the plane all manning different gun turrets trying to bomb a factory deep behind enemy lines. Wish newer flight sim games would add some of these gameplay elements.

 

Retrospectively, AIR WARRIOR got some many aspects of a multiplayer game right. And their Historic Scenario's feature an entire command structure, training sessions and the DIE ONLY ONCE AND YOUR OUT model sure did get the blood flowing. Just try not to crash on initial rollout!

[LoneMerc]

For immersion would be nice to have a selection of what loads to transport, Aircraft parts, Ammo, Men, fuel? etc. And also as on the Eagle and SYN servers a call out to what airfield needs what for example, 

 

Airfield A in need of aircraft: You loadup and fly in Aircraft Parts

Airfield B is low on Ammo: You loadup Ammo fly it in

 

and so on, more specific needs to changing situations that we can react to. 

 

Ammo would be interesting that supplies for airfield can be make MG and flak gun fire at 100% or if low at conserve ammo mode 50% rate of fire and of course out of ammo no defenses. It would make transport runs more urgent can also do same with fuel etc.

Edited September 13, 2014 by LoneMerc

[Schmittfeuer]

For immersion would be nice to have a selection of what loads to transport, Aircraft parts, Ammo, Men, fuel? etc. And also as on the Eagle and SYN servers a call out to what airfield needs what for example, 

 

Airfield A in need of aircraft: You loadup and fly in Aircraft Parts

Airfield B is low on Ammo: You loadup Ammo fly it in

 

and so on, more specific needs to changing situations that we can react to. 

 

Ammo would be interesting that supplies for airfield can be make MG and flak gun fire at 100% or if low at conserve ammo mode 50% rate of fire and of course out of ammo no defenses. It would make transport runs more urgent can also do same with fuel etc.

 

Got a really cool idea there. It'd be nice to have different kinds of supplies to fly around.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Since we have a Ju-52, why not Revive this thread?

[Royal_Flight]

The Ju-52 is one of the biggest surprises of this game. I bought it for a bit of a laugh, thinking it would be fun to pass the time with in singleplayer when my mates weren't online.

Instead it turns out that it's great fun to fly in all situations, online and off and trying to evade prowling fighters and dodge incoming flak while navigating to an airfield so you can touch down, taxi around and unload cars with the engines still running before opening the taps and trying to get airborne again, all possibly under fire... doing that is one of the most nerve-wracking tasks, and one of the most satisfying to pull off.

 

TL;DR transport missions are great, we need more options.

Also I would thoroughly support the idea of a transport variant of the He-111. And a lend-lease C-47...

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The Ju-52 is one of the biggest surprises of this game. I bought it for a bit of a laugh, thinking it would be fun to pass the time with in singleplayer when my mates weren't online.

Instead it turns out that it's great fun to fly in all situations, online and off and trying to evade prowling fighters and dodge incoming flak while navigating to an airfield so you can touch down, taxi around and unload cars with the engines still running before opening the taps and trying to get airborne again, all possibly under fire... doing that is one of the most nerve-wracking tasks, and one of the most satisfying to pull off.

 

TL;DR transport missions are great, we need more options.

Also I would thoroughly support the idea of a transport variant of the He-111. And a lend-lease C-47...

It wouldn't really be a Variant but an Additional Mod.