Level bombing (ie. He111) ?

[Recon]

I have a couple of questions if you don't mind.

 

I would like to learn more about how level bombing will work.

 

I have flow level bombing in IL2 as well as the bombers in ROF.   I really like the level bombing and how it is down in ROF.

 

Will the initial release include level bombing capabilities ?

Do you think it will be like ROF system ?

Will there be multi-crew support with a pilot and a bombadier ?

 

Thanks!

S!

AKA_Recon

[BlackSix]

Will the initial release include level bombing capabilities ?

Do you think it will be like ROF system ?

Will there be multi-crew support with a pilot and a bombadier ?

 

1) Yes. We plan to make two level bombers in the release, it's He-111 and Pe-2

2) Yes, it will be like ROF system

3) Yes

[JtD]

What is the "RoF system"?

[BlackSix]

What is the "RoF system"?

 

It's the depth and complexity of the modeling for the bombsights and control. It's difficult to explain briefly, you need to look it in the game.

[JtD]

OK. I'll look at it first flight in the He 111 and Pe-2.

[Requiem]

1) Yes. We plan to make two level bombers in the release, it's He-111 and Pe-2

2) Yes, it will be like ROF system

3) Yes

I hope that the devs can allow the bombardier position to be responsible for the bombing process when it comes to BoS. Currently in RoF  the two workloads of flying and bombing is left up to the pilot entirely. This works fine of course, but it would be pretty innovative if the people who crew a bomber can actually utilise the functions of the positions they crew instead of just being gunners. This would help lessen the pilot's workload and encourage teamwork in multicrew aircraft.

 

This is probably difficult to realise, but its something to think about anyway.

[Peshka]

What is the "RoF system"?

 

OK. I'll look at it first flight in the He 111 and Pe-2.

 

Try Rise of the Flight and it is to see. Or if you no want this try the website youtube

 

Or just always .....

[JtD]

I'm aware of these options, but anyway, thanks for pointing them out.

[Recon]

that is great to hear BlackSix - I appreciate the response!

 

Looking forward to playing this, the excitement is already starting to build  

[Sokol1]

OK. I'll look at it first flight in the He 111 and Pe-2.

 

 

What is the "RoF system"?

 

 

Sokol1

[Feathered_IV]

One area where all flight sims fail is in how the crews are modelled. A human bomber pilot is a sort of one-man band. He has to navigate, aim the bombs, watch for fighters and fly the plane. He gets little to no help from his AI crew. Will BoS be any different?

Will it be possible to ask a navigator for a heading, or have a flight engineer watch the engine temps? Will a bomb Aimer give us directions through the bomb run or a gunner report on air and surface contacts? Or are the crew members more just like figures on a wedding cake?

[01Wingchaps]

Being an ROF player, one thing I LOVE about the sim is how multi-crew aircraft are modelled. As is obvious in this thread, there are bombsights for level bombing (The Handley-Page and Gotha bombers NEED this, and several 2-seaters can use it), as well as missions for photo recon and artillery spotting. Artillery spotting in ROF is a blast! See what I did there...

 

All that being said, I think you'll find that the bombsights in ROF have enough complexity to be rewarding to use, while not being so complex that you need military training to do it. Also, difficulty settings like "no wind" make it even easier. I think you'll enjoy it it BOS.

[JtD]

Sokol, I appreciate the linked video but I don't really care how bombsights work in RoF. WW1 bombsights have about nothing in common with the ones used in WW2, and if they are modelled in "depth and high complexity" as BlackSix says, I expect the sights to be modelled to work like the real ones did, with all the key functions and historical pros and cons present. Hence I'll look at it when I get to fly the He 111 and Pe-2. I wonder how bubbly the aiming air bubble used in the OPB sight will be. I don't wonder about the basics, they were there in other games two decades ago.

[I/JG27_Zimmi]

As for me it always seemed that bombers have not played the important part in virtual (online) gameplay as they essentially should have. Only a very small number of enthusiastic pilots frequently played the sitting duck in missions that were dominated by figher aces. Honestly, who can blame the pilots for not jumping into the Heinkel, Stuka, or Peshka when almost everyone is concerned about not shooting down 4 enemy planes and neglecting the close support of bombers during their misson.

 

I have to admit that I have no idea how to approach this issue, but we should discuss a way to make the the bomber scenario more attracktive for online as well as offline pilots. The importance for a campaign of these missions (strategic attacks, recon and supply) must be scaled up to avoid ending up haveing these planes flown only by a minority. Personally I loved to fly bombers as far as I had a team behind me, that took care of me from the very first second of the mission to its end. The AI was never able to accomplish bombers escort missions in a reasonable way in IL-2 series. Expecing human like AI would be visionary, but I ask to especially care about AI intelligence and behaviour for such kind of tasks. The essence of  air war can not only be seen in fighters.

 

Maybe this can be realised by certain triggers that make AI fighters return to the bombers as soon as they are too far away from the formation or as an increased activity of enemies are closing up to the bombers is detected.

[csThor]

It's not going to happen, Zimmi. This has partially to do with four facts:

 

1.) Simplicity of fighters - Taking CloD as an example to compare complexity of aircraft management a Bf 109 is a lot easier to handle than a He 111 or Ju 88 (or than a Ju 87 if its complex dive-brake and flap system hadn't been mis-modeled). Even simplified as in 1946 it still takes more effort to fly a bomber than a fighter or fighter-bomber.

2.) Survivability - In an environment that is so infested by fighters only true fans or masochists fly types other than fighters/fighter-bombers. Simple as that. There has been, so far, no real attempt at challenging that massive imbalance has been made.

3.) Lack of area targets - Bombers did not really have "their" target category in any previous sim. All too often they were mis-used for some fancy form of CAS simply because the game didn't provide the necessary means to employ them historically and sensibly.

4.) Glamor - Fighters have a "glamorous" reputation, bombers/Stukas are being derided as mere targets.

 

On top of that pile there is another issue: Most server missions and many online wars were simply catered to a crowd that wanted aerial duels. It was all too often that the missions made sure that the two teams met in the middle and had it out there. This may make it easier to assess scores and who won but it has nothing to do with realism and historical facts and, due to the imbalance in favor of fighters, degraded any other aircraft class to mere window dressing and fighter fodder.

 

Using the AI to enhance the number of bombers/Stukas/Il-2 on the battlefield would be a first step in breaking the unrealistic dominance of fighters, but that isn't going to work, either, as far too many players have a stuck-up attitude towards AI use and pride themselves in playing against human opponents only (as if that were something special these days).

[BlackSix]

Sokol, I appreciate the linked video but I don't really care how bombsights work in RoF. WW1 bombsights have about nothing in common with the ones used in WW2, and if they are modelled in "depth and high complexity" as BlackSix says, I expect the sights to be modelled to work like the real ones did, with all the key functions and historical pros and cons present.

 

I didn't say this. I said that the depth and complexity of the modeling for the bombsights and control will be made like in RoF.

Work of the bombsights will be modeled with simplifications. If you want to undrestand this system you've to see RoF.

[JtD]

OK, so I watched the video. You enter altitude and speed and then drop the bombs. The essentials are there. Could be the simple bombsights of WW1, or the simple modelling. So the question still is how the 25 years of technical advances in bomb aiming from altitude will be modelled in the He 111 and Pe-2, and I'll still be trying them out first flight. I have lowered my expectations, though - now expecting that windsocks at the airfield will still be the way to go to determine winds at the target area 5000m up and 300km away.

[SYN_Vander]

OK, so I watched the video. You enter altitude and speed and then drop the bombs. The essentials are there. Could be the simple bombsights of WW1, or the simple modelling. So the question still is how the 25 years of technical advances in bomb aiming from altitude will be modelled in the He 111 and Pe-2, and I'll still be trying them out first flight. I have lowered my expectations, though - now expecting that windsocks at the airfield will still be the way to go to determine winds at the target area 5000m up and 300km away.

In RoF ( and no doubt in BoS as well ) the mission designer can set different wind speeds at different altitudes. With the bomb sight you can correct for wind direction as well. I don't know what the 25 years of technical advances meant for He 111 / Pe-2 bomber sights ( I only know a bit about the Norden bomb sight), but I'm sure they will not help you much to hit a target if there is 10 km/ hr wind speed at 1000 m from the East and a 20 km/ hr wind speed from the SW at 3000 m

[BlackSix]

I have lowered my expectations, though - now expecting that windsocks at the airfield will still be the way to go to determine winds at the target area 5000m up and 300km away.

 

Thanks. The main thing I want to say is that we don't make a simulator of bombsights. This is not our task)

[I/JG27_Zimmi]

I think of myself of being generally an optimistic person, may even sometimes scratch the border to naivety, for this reason I think it is possible to shift the general acceptance of strategic attack aircraft if certain conditions are generated and available. I don't want to say and nor do I believe that bombers will ever gain that much attention as fighters and ground attack planes do. I  also agree with you on most of your statements. However, I want to point out one fundamental question. Will the time, work, and money that is is put into the implementation of stratetic attack planes ever pay off by attracking new customers just because of glorious names as "Heinkel He-111". If such planes are implemented in a game then I think the basis for a long-termin utilisation should be present, whatever it looks like. A thrilling campaign, certain mission features that are implemented in gameplay or simply a vast number of goodies that can only be unlocked when flying bombers. I mean the modelling of He-111, Ju-87, Pe-2 so an is awesome work and it should be more than just makeing these planes available to fly.

Edited July 25, 2013 by I/JG27_Zimmi

[ACG_Suardi]

I rather fly bombers, fighters are cool but i like the complexibility of bombers missions.

 

But as BS said, BoS will no t be a bombsight simulator... I'll be happy if my H111 Bombsight has how to setup my altitude, speed and correct the wind direction... this is the basic and this is enought.

I would love to have a complete H-111, with clickable cockpit, full real operation, real checklist and etc... but this not the focus of BoS, this is a combat flight simulator, not a Heinkel flight simulator...

BoS will make you feel a WW2 pilot, will not instruct you to be a real one.

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

as someone who flew almost every time a bomber in onlinewar COOPs was available , i hope the development team has the time to look into Il2 4.12 and Cliffs of Dover how these game handle some things about bombers.

 

Il2:

-the control you have as a flightleader over your wingmen.

-how the bombfuzes are handled, espacially,themgerman ones

 

CoD

-the ability to set salvos ans impact distances (if in real available)

[JtD]

But as BS said, BoS will no t be a bombsight simulator... I'll be happy if my H111 Bombsight has how to setup my altitude, speed and correct the wind direction... this is the basic and this is enought.

Just think about it - with properly modelled bombsights, you wouldn't have to do it. Set altitude, lock the target, and have the sight do the rest.

[Sokol1]

 

 

But as BS said, BoS will no t be a bombsight simulator... I'll be happy if my H111 Bombsight has how to setup my altitude, speed and correct the wind direction... this is the basic and this is enought.

 

Seems exactly what RoF allow now, and the wind drift adjustment is more that we have in il-2 "classic" or in CloD (the old B-17 II allow this).

 

 

 

Just think about it - with properly modelled bombsights, you wouldn't have to do it. Set altitude, lock the target, and have the sight do the rest. 

 

 

This is what was needed in 90's Warbids Online...  But (IMO) a "automatic bombardier" is too simplistic. 

 

il-2 CloD try improved this matter with 3D bombsight - Wimperis in Blenheim (and Br.20 one), but fail due lack of autopilot level stabilization, lack of 6DOF in bombardier cockpit - a big cockpit bar block frontal vision in crucial moments.

 

So what RoF allow is fine - well need a less ugly interface. - add (improved) il-2:CloD map tools to allow trace attack routes. 

 

Sokol1

[JtD]

It's not an automatic bombardier. It would be a properly modelled bombsight, historically accurate. You can also bet that not every plane had a system like that, it's pretty high end. Other bombsight had other aides, which will be sorely missed. I don't think that what the guy in the video did from 1500m at 140 km/h with a wind of 1m/s is still possible from 5 times the alt and 3 times the speed at 4 times the wind.

 

Imho, giving all bombardiers the same simplified bombsight is like giving all fighters the same simplified flight model. A possible simplification, but in the long term a mistake.

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

at least in RoF , not all bombsights (planes that have them) have the same features and look. They differ from plane to plane. So i doubt (hopefully !) that the He111 will have different (apperently more) features   in its bombsight than the Pe2.

And in RoF all planes have a levelstabilisator, i gues in BoS it will be the same. And the levelstab cant be used in RoF to come out of a spin IIRC

Edited July 27, 2013 by Frankyboy

[Recon]

Being an ROF player, one thing I LOVE about the sim is how multi-crew aircraft are modelled. As is obvious in this thread, there are bombsights for level bombing (The Handley-Page and Gotha bombers NEED this, and several 2-seaters can use it), as well as missions for photo recon and artillery spotting. Artillery spotting in ROF is a blast! See what I did there...

 

All that being said, I think you'll find that the bombsights in ROF have enough complexity to be rewarding to use, while not being so complex that you need military training to do it. Also, difficulty settings like "no wind" make it even easier. I think you'll enjoy it it BOS.

 

Yes, I agree - I flew both the Page and the Gotha in ROF and really like the way it's setup.  

 

Also as mentioned, typically in ROF servers I flew on, the mission briefing would include the windspeed and direction.  I would plan my bombing routes around this and would get as high as I could and still see the target, survive the flak, etc... 

 

As far as 'rewarding' and effort:  it is certainly very rewarding when your a bomber pilot to plan out the attack, checking speed, alt, direction as well as properly spotting the target, using ground landmarks, etc.. I wouldn't say it's complicated - and as mentioned, simple things like having a level stabilizer (a post above knocks CLOD - and I agree that basically killed doing bombing for me in CLOD).  For me personally, ROF has a system that includes the basics and as quoted above doesn't really get to where it's simulating bombsights.  

 

I digress, flying bomber is a nice change of pace from just flying fighter in that you typically have a mission to execute.  Most online scenario's reward the team by winning the mission by accomplishing these goals (aka, take out the factory, harbor, supply depot, etc..) - and despite some comments above - it's very common to see a group of dedicated bomber pilots on servers doing just that.   Including bombers and make them first class citizens in the game is vital to it's success and immersion.

 

 

In the announcement thread, I mentioned that having a server setup with good missions and objectives is of equal importance to online flight sim success as the amount of eye candy and FM/DM/engine modeling.

 

 

So I'm very excited to learn that bombing will be similiar to ROF as I feel that was a success!

[Pharoah]

In IL2 I used to spend 90% of my time flying bombers and would usually end up with the highest points (or close to it). why? because fighter pilots' eyes (esp noobie ones) would light up when they saw a single bomber or a flight of bombers and would go charging in from behind...only to be shot up and killed quick smart. I once shot down the same pilot 3 times in the same mission...lol...he then rage quitted. Having bombers in IL2 is key. It really works when you have an online squad communicating with TS3 or something and are able to fly together for mutual support and defense. Okay sometimes you'd all be killed but most times you'd loose maybe 1 or 2. There are some of us who love flying ground pounders, esp larger 2 or 4 engined bombers in formation all relying on the lead to drop their bombs. I found it a heck of a lot more fun than just purely dogfighting.

[ShamrockOneFive]

In IL2 I used to spend 90% of my time flying bombers and would usually end up with the highest points (or close to it). why? because fighter pilots' eyes (esp noobie ones) would light up when they saw a single bomber or a flight of bombers and would go charging in from behind...only to be shot up and killed quick smart. I once shot down the same pilot 3 times in the same mission...lol...he then rage quitted. Having bombers in IL2 is key. It really works when you have an online squad communicating with TS3 or something and are able to fly together for mutual support and defense. Okay sometimes you'd all be killed but most times you'd loose maybe 1 or 2. There are some of us who love flying ground pounders, esp larger 2 or 4 engined bombers in formation all relying on the lead to drop their bombs. I found it a heck of a lot more fun than just purely dogfighting.

I spend about 60% of my time in bombers and attack aircraft now and I have to agree. While you can sometimes be a sitting duck... if you fly with a group and play it smart its possible to defend yourself, hit the target, and get away. Sometimes without the necessity of defending yourself.

 

The other half the time I actually enjoy being challenged by fighters. In an odd sort of way...

[Lord_Haw-Haw]

Well it is a start with the He111 and the Pe2. But do hope this field will not be viewed as an absolute

marginal topic. In IL2 I spent 90%+ of my time in a bomber. The further development of more bombers

is for me of great interest, and a big part of the decision to buy yes or no. So I am hoping that we will be seeing

a few more in time.