Realistic bomb sight settings?

[sturmkraehe]

I remember from original IL2 that for setting up the bomb sight we had to do the conversation from indicated air speed to true air speed depending on altitude. I think it added a lot to the immersion since afaik this is how the bomb guy had to do it in real life. I really would appreciate to have this feature back in game - at least as a difficulty setting option. It offered an additional challenge for bomb runs which added to the fun imho.

[arjisme]

since afaik this is how the bomb guy had to do it in real life.

 

The basis for this poll hasn't been firmly established, imo.  Did the real life bomb guy in the PE-2 set the sight with IAS or TAS?  Same question for the HE-111 bomb guy.

 

I'm just saying it would be best to be 100% clear that it is proven how it was done in RL before having a poll based on an assumption or an "I think" or an "I believe", etc. basis.

[sturmkraehe]

Here you have detailed information about the German Lotfe. My assumption is that the Russian one is similar:

 

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/b/Beobachtungsgereate/Lofte%20C%20D/lotfe%20fernrohr%207d.html

 

It clearly talks about "Geschwindigkeit über Grund" = speed above ground ~ true air speed.

[Sandhill]

BlackSix's illustration in today's developer diary would suggest to me that the bombsight might calculate TAS since you are entering IAS and altitude...it would certainly seem to be doing the air speed to ground speed calculation for you given the entry of wind speed and angle...I'm kind of with arjisme that lacking an understanding of what the bombsight is doing (and therefore how realistic the bombsight itself is) it's hard to say what it's inputs should be...

Edited May 23, 2014 by Arnaud_Amaury

[sturmkraehe]

As the link I provided says the Lotfe needs speed above ground for input.

 

It also makes sense! Why? The indicated air speed is basically just measuring the dynamic pressure (= 0.5*density*(speed with respect to the air)^2) and translates it to some speed indication that has been normed to some standard density values. Now in real world we have varying densities depending on current temperature (that is during summer we have different densities than in winter and there is a difference between night and day and the temperature varies from day to day). There is no way a mechanical device used during ww2 is capable to take these alea into account. A bomb aimer can do this because he can do the calculation since he knows approximately the temperatures from weather forcasts. It makes much more sense to set true airspeed.

 

Also:

You set the altitude over ground into the bomb sight (the target may not be at sea level!) while the indicated airspeed is calibrated to see level altitude! So if the bomb sight would really calculate by itself the speed over ground you would need to set two altitudes into the bomb sight: the altitude above ground and the altitude above sea level so that the bomb sight could to correct calculation. 

[Sokol1]

I am for detailed bombsight* (Like TD is done for il-2'46), but force people convert IAS do TAS and due this use external programns

(unless include a E-6B, DR-2 discs in bombsight interface ) dont add nothing to level bombing.

 

An if doing so, do right, include OAT, target altitude... on calculations.

 

Better options like set salvo, delay, fuses, bomb dispersion.

 

* In Cl+D Blenheim have a nice 3D animated bombsight, but his use is simplified to level below to il-2'46...

 

Sokol1

Edited May 23, 2014 by Sokol1

[Dakpilot]

I am for detailed bombsight* (Like TD is done for il-2'46), but force people convert IAS do TAS and due this use external programns

(unless include a E-6B, DR-2 discs in bombsight interface ) dont add nothing to level bombing.

 

 

+1 I see no point in doing this calculation for the sake of it, the outcomes are a given fixed result, I guess if people want to do it, I have no objection to a more "full real option" but how much work for how much use?

 

Am sure if it that needed a mod for it will appear if no time to implement from Dev's 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[[DBS]El_Marta]

I am for detailed bombsight* (Like TD is done for il-2'46), but force people convert IAS do TAS and due this use external programns

(unless include a E-6B, DR-2 discs in bombsight interface ) dont add nothing to level bombing.

 

An if doing so, do right, include OAT, target altitude... on calculations.

 

Better options like set salvo, delay, fuses, bomb dispersion.

 

Fuze and intervalometer settings are more important.

[sturmkraehe]

+1 I see no point in doing this calculation for the sake of it, the outcomes are a given fixed result, I guess if people want to do it, I have no objection to a more "full real option" but how much work for how much use?

 

Am sure if it that needed a mod for it will appear if no time to implement from Dev's 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

It's not entirely for the sake of it. If you understand how a pitot tube (that piece that provides some indication about how fast you are relatively to the air at a virtual altitude over sea level) and a velocity dial works you will understand that for precise level bombing you need to put in true air speed over ground (a best guess of it). Now IF the instruments that indicate in-air-speed are modelled correctly and knowing that the atmospheric temperatures implemented in the game are not standard the mistake will be there. Now of course if this is all a bit game-like and the indicated air speed corrects the difference between real altitude and altitude over sea level plus the temperature difference it is not realistic.

Edited May 24, 2014 by sturmkraehe

[Sokol1]

We know that speed on instruments is not the correctly.

 

But, what the difference in player solve TAS = IAS+(IASxOAT/1000) or the bombsight calculations do this math based on informed IAS?

 

In both case the result is the same (target hit), but the player will need a APP in smartphone/tablet or use Alt+TAB and use other

convert program. Will have a difficult task for what?

 

"Immersion" wise use Alt+Tab+something is worst than just input IAS, no?

 

I am not for simplifications for the "sake of gameplay" - will prefer a (difficult to use) 3D bombsight - but this dont fit in the scope of

game proposal: accessible to casual players.

 

Maybe in future they sold better bombsight as "scarf" to please (we) "grognards".

 

Sokol1

[sturmkraehe]

You can calculate these things once and write a table on paper. Not difficult. Did this for original IL2 and imho added a lot to the fun (I like to be intelectually challenged - even if it's only mildly by this little conversation from IAS to TAS). Anyway, I agree that it won't attract cashual players (however I have some doubts that a cashual player will do level bombing anyway) so that is why I offered as poll option to have this be part of difficulty setting. Up to the player to choose. 

Edited May 24, 2014 by sturmkraehe

[Nen]

100% agree with you Storm.

 

If somebody wants simplification he/she would be playing World of Planes or something similar. There's enough offer for casuals out there, let's us hardcore simmers enjoy complexity a bit.

 

Even more when this sim is really nice but not hardcore 100%, making it more simple would be like lowering the standard a bit more.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Nen

[HR_Grainovich]

100% agree with you Nen ;D

[Sokol1]

You can calculate these things once and write a table on paper. Not difficult. D

 

 

Well, the calculation part is solved - in proper "old fashion way":

 

 

Only need a working thermometer on bombers.

 

 

Sokol1

Edited May 25, 2014 by Sokol1

[sturmkraehe]

Looks good! It would be simple to do a bit of handcraft work to make this dial in paper form. Could also come together with a Stalingrad printed map in a premium hardcopy version of IL2 Battle of Stalingrad. Would like to have that as an additional gift for a hardcopy package.

[Sokol1]

http://www.pumaszallas.hu/elmeleti-anyagok/repuleselmelet/navigacio/260-dr-tarcsa-nyomtathato-verzio.html

 

If prefer Russian version:

 

http://www.pumaszallas.hu/elmeleti-anyagok/repuleselmelet/navigacio/260-dr-tarcsa-nyomtathato-verzio.html

 

Sokol1

[LukeFF]

Heck, I still have the IAS to TAS chart that was included with the flyable version of the He 111 and TB-3 in IL2. 

IAS TAS Chart.pdf

[Sparrer]

S!

 

Voted on TAS purpose

1º With an in game E6/DR2....would be great

or

2º Ingame Table/chart consult

or

3º Ingame interface for calculation

Why?

Add imersion and dificult.....we know doing stuff during bomb run raises the dificult a lot..bomber pilots goes crazy

And put IAS is just wrong. An quick interface will solve the problem doing the right thing and keep it simple....sims also are a way to learn how things were

[[DBS]El_Marta]

They should put this dial in the bomsight interface or leave it as is with IAS input. A discription of how this things work would be welcome too. Bombers are multicrewed and while the pilot flies the plane, the bombadier sets up the sight. Doing the work multiple guys did in reality as a one person player is not realistic either.

 

In multicrewed multiplayer things are different. I also would love to see some plotting tools for the navigator on the map.

[Sokol1]

 

They should put this dial in the bomsight interface or leave it as is with IAS input.

 

This dial is a Dreieckrechner Dr-2 (triangle computer) used by Luftwaffe/Lufthansa before portable computers.

Is more easy to use for convert IAS to TAS that using a electronic calculator, just set actual IAS against outside temperature, read TAS under actual altitude.

A real trained navigator can do this with one hand.

 

 

Bombers are multicrewed and while the pilot flies the plane, the bombadier sets up the sight. Doing the work multiple guys did in reality as a one person player is not realistic either.

 

Depends on bomber, in He 111, B-17... on bombing run the pilot is a mere passenger, the bombardier is who controls the plane heading corrections to autopilot.

 

In this game the "AI-Autopilot level flight" acts a pilot when the player where in bombsight, and he maintain the plane leveled better that a human pilot.

 

Sokol1

[sturmkraehe]

Sokol, do you also have an instruction on how to use the Dreiecksrechner?

[Sokol1]

On final of R.v Riet PDF linked above are some samples of calculations. Page # 18.

 

For CFS what is usefull is basically convert IAS to TAS see page # 19, and things like time/speed/distance...

Only "wind triangle" is a bit more complicated, like is in E-6B.

The advantage of DR disk is be in metric system, used by Luftwaffe and VVS planes.

 

Sokol1

[FG28Kodiak]

If the devs works correct, the groundspeed is calculated by the Lofte itself.

Hold the target in focus, then you should read the correct value from an instrument (31) besides the Lofte.

 

Lotfernrohr 7C manual (german):

http://www.mediafire.com/view/mm1y2ccf5cao723/Lotfernrohr_7C.pdf

[sturmkraehe]

Kodiak, this is precious information. Please post it in the developer assistance section.

 

This poll however also applies to Russian and any other bombsights we might get that might not have the Lotfe capabilities so please continue to drop your oppinion here.

[RydnDirty]

I was very disappointed to see the dumbed down bombsight in BOS. It removes the judgement and experience from the bombardier roll. There is simple no skill won from experience nor judgment in copying the numbers from one dial to another.

 

When I first saw that BOS was using the dumbed down IAS sight I took it as a bad omen ... like seeing a comet in the sky or a red lunar eclipse or a bomber formation  contrails heading directly over my position...

 

I voted for the TAS but I doubt BOS will ever be the game I hoped it would be...

[Y-29.Silky]

I don't know, but I hope the keep where you can adjust it how it is now. Doing it from the keyboard back then was beyond a pain in the ass.

[SOLIDKREATE]

I came up with this handy dandy excel sheet. It's based off TAS using speed vs. altitude vs. gravity (constant). The excel sheet is editable for speed and altitude. I need to factor in the rate of deceleration for more accurate drops.

 

 

Ground Attack_Close Air Support for Fighters.zip

Edited November 3, 2014 by KOTP_SPEKTRE76