The full mission builder discussion.

[SKG51_Joker]

We do hear you asking for the MB. We will give it to players when it's ready. We can't make it possible sooner that it's planned (even extra money wouldn't help much since it's about vacant specialists, not about paying more to the existing ones)

 

... and how do you think we should be able to keep squad life with BoS interesting in the meantime?

Edited May 12, 2014 by ZG15_Falke

[LuftManu]

Thank you for hear us Devs,I am sure, this decision would be Good to Sim.

[FlatSpinMan]

... and how do you think we should be able to keep squad life with BoS interesting in the meantime?

Hang on! The Devs reversed their decision after reading the posts asking for the FMB; they said they don't have the personnel to do it asap; and your first reaction is to moan that it won't be available immediately?!!!!!

 

Zak - that's really heartening news.

[Panzerlang]

Hang on! The Devs reversed their decision after reading the posts asking for the FMB; they said they don't have the personnel to do it asap; and your first reaction is to moan that it won't be available immediately?!!!!!

 

Zak - that's really heartening news.

 

I think you've misunderstood him, because he's said nothing different than what was originally said. To wit, until the FMB has a user-friendly structure it will be witheld from but a few. Taken with the other comments about a lack of a specialist, and the money to hire one any time soon, that "when it's ready" is utterly meaningless.

[FlatSpinMan]

Where did you get "user friendly" bit from?

I'll take "when it's ready" over "never", any day.

[SKG51_Joker]

Hang on! The Devs reversed their decision after reading the posts asking for the FMB; they said they don't have the personnel to do it asap; and your first reaction is to moan that it won't be available immediately?!!!!!

 

I think it will be a closed loop:  no FMB, no Squad driven Mission Content, not many buyers, no money or priority for programming FMB.

But maybe I overestimate the exisiting community which up to now was supporting the development by buying early access...

 

And from my understanding: there is a FMB here already, not perfect but working, it´s just that I won´t get it.

That and the fact that I´m a founder not for no reason, gets on my nervs!

Edited May 12, 2014 by ZG15_Falke

[FlatSpinMan]

OK.  I'm sure most of us share your concern and wishes that this sim really takes off. It has a lot going for it.

[Panzerlang]

Where did you get "user friendly" bit from?

I'll take "when it's ready" over "never", any day.

 

There have been comments from the team about making the FMB more 'user friendly' before giving it out freely to one and all, as opposed to its currently more dev-orientated structure. Or that's how I've understood it.

Feel free to call me cynical but I don't believe the FMB will ever be made 'user friendly'; it will remain as it is now and a select few will be given it, per the original decision. Unless the team do a 180-degree turn and make it freely available to all. Which is, in my opinion, what they should do. So they'll get emails asking for help, or abuse over its complexity...that's a reason to withold it?! Put in a disclaimer-readme and Ignore the emails, bin them.

 

Witholding it creates greater overall disadvantage/negativity than handing it out and having to put up with critical emails etc.

[Phant0m]

Based on Zaks comment in this thread and http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/6251-discussion-questions-developers/?p=118170

 

My understanding is, they have selected individuals from the rof community that have already proven themselves and these people may create missions from mid summer/winter. What happens at release who is to say, we may indeed get access to it.

[startrekmike]

I appreciate the official response Zak but I can't help but still feel very concerned, it still feels like we are on very unsteady ground, I would like to think that the sim will be so successful that the team will get access to the funds and development wiggle room needed to create the editor that the dev's really have in mind for release but I also can't shake the feeling I get from reading the developer posts on this forum that the future of not only flight sims but this product in particular is hazy at best, this is perhaps where my biggest concern comes from.

 

  To put it simply, I don't really get the feeling that the team believes there will be a point where a new mission editor will actually be made, they would like it to happen but I feel like they don't think it will happen themselves.

 

  This is why I am so passionate about this, I imagine that my posts have gotten pretty annoying and for that I am very, sincerely sorry but from my angle, providing A editor is better than the uncertainty of a new editor down the road or even no editor at all.

[Wandalen]

Without the FMB the sim community here will die out. 

[Zak]

This is why I am so passionate about this, I imagine that my posts have gotten pretty annoying and for that I am very, sincerely sorry but from my angle, providing A editor is better than the uncertainty of a new editor down the road or even no editor at all.

Startrekmike, please, don't you worry. What I'm doing here now is trying to calm ppl down by saying obvious things that some of them do not hear for some mysterious reason. MB will be given to players in future. So why are you worried that much? Let's imagine that it was not about the MB but about multiplayer. And you were telling us how come the MP mode is not available yet? And I would keep telling you that we'll give MP in future.

Same story here.

So it would be more useful to discuss MB features, for instance, but not us not giving it to everyone right now. Furthermore we don't have BOS mission builder, only ROF builder.

[Dakpilot]

I am sure it has been said somewhere in the forums that if you want access to the ME, all you have to do is send them a mission made with ROF editor and they will give you the ME, so how this means " a select few" I am not sure. All the people who have already made "hundeds of missions for squads etc." or just one, can become one of the "select few"

At this time the push is to finish the content and iron out the bugs for release in sept? If the game itself does not perform as well as expected on a wide range of hardware at release the greatest mission editor the gaming world has ever seen will not help or save it. Horse  before the cart and all,  people seem to be worried about lack of content being a problem before the game is even released to market.

User made missions etc. as per IL2 of old will be vital for longevity and a user friendly editor is paramount for that, but priorities are to finish  the game to acceptable standards with minimal bugs.Another troubled birth cannot be sustained In this genre.

I think the devs should be congratulated for the progress so far, and openness with the community. So much can be analysed from one sentence in a second language that misunderstandings seem to be the norm here

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited May 12, 2014 by Dakpilot

[startrekmike]

Startrekmike, please, don't you worry. What I'm doing here now is trying to calm ppl down by saying obvious things that some of them do not hear for some mysterious reason. MB will be given to players in future. So why are you worried that much? Let's imagine that it was not about the MB but about multiplayer. And you were telling us how come the MP mode is not available yet? And I would keep telling you that we'll give MP in future.

Same story here.

So it would be more useful to discuss MB features, for instance, but not us not giving it to everyone right now. Furthermore we don't have BOS mission builder, only ROF builder.

 

 

 Thank you for the additional reply, I just want to make sure I have this straight, the team does fully intend to release a FMB at some point after the release of the product? I should not have any doubt that this will happen?

 

  Again, I am not trying to be difficult, this is just something I am very passionate about so I want to make sure I fully understand the official stance because other posts (from both Loft and Jason) make it look like the public release of a editor is kinda up in the air, it is not something that is a sure bet at this point.

 

  So, the official line is that there will be one, just not immediately on release?

[334th_L0C0]

Thank you for the additional reply, I just want to make sure I have this straight, the team does fully intend to release a FMB at some point after the release of the product?

You forgot to ask if "players" means all players.

 

I've made over 1000 missions for IL2 and spent my money on BOS to continue to do so. I can wait, but for how long? I can't invest any more time with this sim until I see one

Edited May 12, 2014 by 9./JG54_EZ

[=AVG=Zombie]

I want it now.....why? Because i want it now.... that's not a good enough reason son  (sobs) why are you crying?.... Because i want it now!!!!   

Typical afternoon with my four year old.... just saying.

[startrekmike]

I want it now.....why? Because i want it now.... that's not a good enough reason son  (sobs) why are you crying?.... Because i want it now!!!!   

Typical afternoon with my four year old.... just saying.

 

  This thread has nothing to do with "I want it now!" In fact, everyone here has been very civil, stating legitimate concerns about the future of a product based on the inclusion or omission of expected features is not the same as your four year old saying "I want it now!" Not at all.

[dburne]

  This thread has nothing to do with "I want it now!" In fact, everyone here has been very civil, stating legitimate concerns about the future of a product based on the inclusion or omission of expected features is not the same as your four year old saying "I want it now!" Not at all.

 

+1 to that!

[Sparrer]

I think Mission Builder, skinning, movie making, coops, online wars....all of that stuff is a big big fuel to communities

And communities are a nice way to promove your BoS to new "customers"....for free


As a member of a squad in past, and being a recruiter for a while....i can't even count how many newcomers me and my friends helped in il-2...and it was just one squad in many many others. Even in newspaper some showed up



By the way, how users will design those multiplayer furball servers ?

And more: will we need to spend more in this maybe further MB, such a new airplanes, such a new maps ?

Isn't that approach one of the reasons to ROF failure ? (i mean popularity failure, maybe not financial one..)

[rlk281]

Speaking of the MB, until it's ready for prime-time, can we have the previous single missions back in the next release?

 

Pretty please???

[Matze81]

We do hear you asking for the MB. We will give it to players when it's ready. [...]

[...] MB will be given to players in future. [...]

Well, THANK YOU kind sirs!!!

 

I was very disappointed when it was revealed that maybe only a few selected guys might get the FMB! The FMB in the original IL-2 and Lock On for example kept me busy for weeks, months, years. And I was/am really looking forward to create my own little missions for friends and myself.

 

Thanks to this forum I know the FMB is more a development tool and therefore very complex, so of course there's a chance that I won't get very far with it, but I'm happy that at least I will get the opportunity to try!

 

So, thank you very much Devs for changing your mind!

 

And honestly with the help of community tutorials and knowledgable community members I'm optimistic I can put something together, even if it's just some small scale stuff!

 

I don't want to seem weird and overly exited, but those news made me happy! Thanks again Zak!

Edited May 13, 2014 by Matze81

[Bearcat]

Very good news Zak.. In light of that .. what wee really need now is someone from the community who knows the MB to step up.

 

Does anyone remember Flying Nutcase's FMB guide? Or Sturmovik Technica? This is what we will need. In the meantime .... 

 

Rise of Flight Mission Editor/Mission Creation

 

.. anyone interested can at least get a glimpse of what it might be like by going over the above.

 

Look guys & gals ....we are on the ground floor.. and the Devs are listening .. so we need to remember what it was ... consider what it is ... and be prepared to make it what it will be.

[III/JG11_Tiger]

Why don't you recruit from the community for FMB technical support so that you don't have to go through the emails personally?

Why don't you recruit from the community for programming a decent FMB?

Why is everything about the small minority that "we know from RoF"? Do you know you're kicking most of your customers in the teeth with statements like that?

No they are not, the reality is most of the community has no interest in making missions.

[LizLemon]

No they are not, the reality is most of the community has no interest in making missions.

Its not just about making missions. Its also about playibg missions and campaign s others have made.

 

Extra, oftentimes free content like that is appealing to far more people then will ever touch the mb.

[SKG51_Joker]

No they are not, the reality is most of the community has no interest in making missions.

 

How do you know?

 

You can only assume that. By which facts would you measure that?

What if a major part of the community is not making their work public, you would never know it´s been done?!

I did lots of missions for myself and my squadmates that never went public. So I´m not interested per your definition??!

[Zak]

Its not just about making missions. Its also about playibg missions and campaign s others have made.

IIRC Loft stated that there will me MODS ON mode in BOS, so  there's nothing to worry about here, I think.

[JtD]

No they are not, the reality is most of the community has no interest in making missions.

I wasn't referring to the FMB, we've had to read this "we will give this to / do this with /... a select few we know from RoF" plenty of times on these boards. The majority here hasn't played RoF, and of those who did, only a small portion qualifies as the ones they know. Because they are buddies with the devs, staying with the FMB example, these guys are smart enough to handle the FMB, while the rest of us morons apparently isn't. Such it sounded, again, when I made my above post. Nicer words were used, but the essence was that.

 

I'm very glad to hear that this approach is being reconsidered, at least in this case. It would have been a real shame to leave out all the talented mission makers I know, folks who have done hundreds of excellent missions and campaigns for IL-2, have invested many hours in familiarizing themselves with the RoF tool already, just to be ready for BoS mission making.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

Rise of Flight Mission Editor/Mission Creation

 

 

The builder isn't all that different from the old IL2 builder. The window for building is actually a lot better than old IL2.There are some simple steps that will make it more intuitive though. One of them would be to put some functions (like "Create Linked Entity") as auto-clicked when putting it in, and de-clicking it as an advanced option. The greatest difference is that you have to jump through a lot of hoops to do almost anything. By making these things "on" by default and possibly hidden in a separate "advanced" tab (you will have to assume people want to have an object the mission if they put it there in the first place), it will allow for a much smoother building process.

[FlatSpinMan]

JtD - don't take it so personally. No one is calling you or any other member here a moron.

 

See it from their point of view - they've been slammed for offering a game with optional plane purchases,slammed for providing a complex mission builder, so they decided to go with people they knew. That's fair!y understandable.

Now it looks like they've changed their mind. Like you, I'm glad they did and I think it's a good idea,but at no point did I feel like they were insulting me before.

[Jaws2002]

Please don't take this the wrong way. Please take this as a concern of someone who wants this game to survive and prosper.

 

Why do you guys in the development team are such control freaks?

Why do you need to control every aspect of our gaming experience? You want to control when, where and how we use skins. You want to control what skins we use and where we can unlock them. You want to control how, when and in what game mode we can unlock and use the load out options for the aircraft. Now you want to control who can use the mission builder?

I honestly don't understand what you are trying to do with this attempt to micromanage our gaming experience.

Nobody buys game to use them how somebody else wants. People buy games to have fun the way they want, in the time they have.

 

All you are doing with this is killing the possible future of this game.

 

When you put the IL2 in the name of the game, a lot of people, who don't follow the forums, expect certain freedoms they experienced with all the previous versions of Il-2.

You are not making this game attractive for many potential buyers if you try to control so many aspects of their gaming experience.

 

Remember. In the end this is a game, not a job. (This is also the reason why the powerful ROF mission builder is not liked by so many people).

Edited May 13, 2014 by Jaws2002

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Part of the control could be to keep cheating, or possibility to do so, at minimum. Nobody would enjoy skins making planes next to invisible and all that. I had no problem with the dev approved skin packs in RoF. That way the quality stayed good and constant. There will be the MODS On mode where anyone can use whatever skin they wish, be it Hello Kitty or My Little Ponies Maybe another reason is that devs keep the flak to a bearable level when they control most of the game aspects. I have no real problem with it, their game after all.

[Bearcat]

Please don't take this the wrong way. Please take this as a concern of someone who wants this game to survive and prosper.

 

Why do you guys in the development team are such control freaks?

Why do you need to control every aspect of our gaming experience? You want to control when, where and how we use skins. You want to control what skins we use and where we can unlock them. You want to control how, when and in what game mode we can unlock and use the load out options for the aircraft. Now you want to control who can use the mission builder?

I honestly don't understand what you are trying to do with this attempt to micromanage our gaming experience.

Nobody buys game to use them how somebody else wants. People buy games to have fun the way they want, in the time they have.

 

All you are doing with this is killing the possible future of this game.

 

When you put the IL2 in the name of the game, a lot of people, who don't follow the forums, expect certain freedoms they experienced with all the previous versions of Il-2.

You are not making this game attractive for many potential buyers if you try to control so many aspects of their gaming experience.

 

Remember. In the end this is a game, not a job. (This is also the reason why the powerful ROF mission builder is not liked by so many people).

 

I don't know about all that .. IMO the main thing that will kill this sim is if it does not run well... As long as it runs well and the devs support it and continue to listen to the community I think it will do fine.. I think that some of you should just be mindful of where we are in the process and calm down. It seems that at every bump in the road someone comes out threatening divorce... Lighten up people and let's see what we get.

[334th_L0C0]

S!

 

Part of the control could be to keep cheating, or possibility to do so, at minimum. Nobody would enjoy skins making planes next to invisible and all that. I had no problem with the dev approved skin packs in RoF. That way the quality stayed good and constant. There will be the MODS On mode where anyone can use whatever skin they wish, be it Hello Kitty or My Little Ponies Maybe another reason is that devs keep the flak to a bearable level when they control most of the game aspects. I have no real problem with it, their game after all.

If someone is flying a skin with nudity or textures that someone doesn't want, the host or room boots that person, simple.

 

 

@ Jaws... I couldnt have said it better myself.

Edited May 13, 2014 by 9./JG54_EZ

[Panzerlang]

If someone is flying a skin with nudity or textures that someone doesn't want, the host or room boots that person, simple.

 

 

@ Jaws... I couldnt have said it better myself.

 

But as we all know from bitter experience, there can be hours go by on a server with no admins present. That's when the TKers and assorted riff-raff make hay.

[Matt]

I think it's great that the devs changed their original view regarding the FMB.

 

Sorry for adding a bit to this off topic custom skin discussion, I never understood this cheat or whatever reasoning about custom skins. There currently is no automatic skin download in RoF and I don't think people are demanding such a feature for BoS (at least I don't think so), so if you don't want a skin that is too fictional, works as a cheat or whatever, don't install it. If you don't have the skin, it shows the default skin and that's it. No advantage for the other guy using his invisible skin. The other guys can fly around in their pink hello kitten skins, no harm done to anyone, because all you see, is the default skin.

[Tab]

Sorry for adding a bit to this off topic custom skin discussion, I never understood this cheat or whatever reasoning about custom skins. There currently is no automatic skin download in RoF and I don't think people are demanding such a feature for BoS (at least I don't think so), so if you don't want a skin that is too fictional, works as a cheat or whatever, don't install it. If you don't have the skin, it shows the default skin and that's it. No advantage for the other guy using his invisible skin. The other guys can fly around in their pink hello kitten skins, no harm done to anyone, because all you see, is the default skin.

I'd be fine with that if the default skin would be the winter one and not the summer one.

Do not want that other players who didnt download the skin packs see me in green on white.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Tab

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

I'd be fine with that if the default skin would be the winter one and not the summer one.

Do not want that other players who didnt download the skin packs see me in green on white.

 

I am fairly certain there will be at least two skins for each aeroplane, and that the default will depend on the map.

[334th_L0C0]

But as we all know from bitter experience, there can be hours go by on a server with no admins present. That's when the TKers and assorted riff-raff make hay.

I have been a host at IL2 for over 10 years and not once did I EVER run into that problem. The OPTION of being able to have them would make both, YOU and I happy as well as everyone else. Tick or untick the box and your problem and mine could be solved.

Edited May 13, 2014 by 9./JG54_EZ

[SYN_Luftwaffles]

RoF game/business model with WWII eastern front planes = success. I wouldn't change stuff much at all.

That's actually what got me so excited about this version of IL2. My two favorite developers coming together to make a game that is basically RoF (had no idea I would ever even have interest in that game or era til I bought ICE) in a WWII setting. Even when I logged in the first time and saw the rotating plane background, I thought to myself, "Man this game is going to be perfect." 

That being said, I don't really mind about the mission builder stuff myself (as I am not into that); however, I think the developers should remember that this game will be launched on Steam early, so there will be a TON of new people introduced into this high-quality simulation, and in turn you will find more individuals like Vander somewhere in all that chaffe that will make high-quality maps, etc., that wouldn't otherwise have had the opportunity to learn the mission builder. 

I think there's a lot of pressure on the developers to have a successful game, and they want to be able to provide the best first impressions of the game at launch. So I think we might be a bit more understanding of some of their methods : )

p.s. 

DONT ARGUE WITH ME OR I'LL YELL

[Bearcat]

I think it's great that the devs changed their original view regarding the FMB.

 

Sorry for adding a bit to this off topic custom skin discussion, I never understood this cheat or whatever reasoning about custom skins. There currently is no automatic skin download in RoF and I don't think people are demanding such a feature for BoS (at least I don't think so), so if you don't want a skin that is too fictional, works as a cheat or whatever, don't install it. If you don't have the skin, it shows the default skin and that's it. No advantage for the other guy using his invisible skin. The other guys can fly around in their pink hello kitten skins, no harm done to anyone, because all you see, is the default skin.

I am with you there..  but it is what it is..