Has anyone done a pilot body poll?

[phalcon51]

I know this isn't being considered in this iteration of the IL-2 series but I'm wondering how many people would prefer to see a pilot controlling the plane instead of an invisible ghost.  I know this has been implemented in a rudimentary way in sims like Lock On and a couple others.  I think it would be nice to see a pilot managing the basic controls such as throttle, stick and rudder.  I know it wouldn't really be practical to have it manage any of the other controls such as the trim wheel, mixture  or prop pitch as the hand movement to the control would incorporate a necessary lag that would be unrealistic.  However, I think just to have a pilot that you can see would add a certain amount of additional immersion to the sim, at least for me.

 

Anyhow, can anyone point me to any poll done on this subject, otherwise I may start my own.  And btw, I did do a search on this and really didn't come up with anything.

 

Thanks

 

Gary

[LukeFF]

It's been discussed, debated, and argued about to death, and it isn't happening for this game.

[arjisme]

Still, you can put a poll up if you like.  I agree with Luke:  it won't happen for this game.

 

I'd vote No in your poll, btw.  The pilot is me, not some animated character within the game.  Also, you've stated other reasons why having a virtual pilot could be immersion busting.  Say you are looking down left inside the cockpit as you adjust throttle, mixture, etc. and see the wheel/levers/switches move but your virtual self isn't touching them.  That would be jarring to me.

 

In FPS games, your character is fully animated and does all the things you can actually do in those games.  So that concern is addressed in those titles.  But flight simming is different for me.  I am the pilot and I have at least some of the control devices sitting right on or under my desk (HOTAS and rudders).  Different from FPS where all I have is mouse + keyboard to operate shotgun, rocket launcher, rail gun, BFG, open doors, deploy grapple hook, etc.

[phalcon51]

It's been discussed, debated, and argued about to death, and it isn't happening for this game.

Any idea which sub-forums and what search words I can use to find these discussions?  Just curious what others have had to say.

 

Gary

[phalcon51]

Still, you can put a poll up if you like.  I agree with Luke:  it won't happen for this game.

 

I'd vote No in your poll, btw.  The pilot is me, not some animated character within the game.  Also, you've stated other reasons why having a virtual pilot could be immersion busting.  Say you are looking down left inside the cockpit as you adjust throttle, mixture, etc. and see the wheel/levers/switches move but your virtual self isn't touching them.  That would be jarring to me.

 

I can understand your point of view but I would have to say that to see all of the controls move magically by themselves is a bit jarring to me.  I do think that the lag problem could be dealt with by simply signalling the pilot's hand to quickly move as soon a the keys for the control are pressed.  There would be a slight lag, but i think even that could be minimized by simply adding a command to move the pilot's hand quickly to the appropriate control as part of the function of pressing the keys or operating the actual wheel/knob on your controller, if any.  You could allow a slight lag after adjusting the control before the pilot moves his hand back to the throttle to allow for further trim/mixture/pitch adjustments.  This lag could even be user defined in the settings menu.  It may sound complicated but I don't think it would be any more so than adding a keystroke control for any other command.  I'm obviously not a programmer, but I think that of all the other much more complicated visual things that are going on in this sim that this would be a relatively simple thing to implement.  Maybe there are some programmers out there that might be willing to address this.  And again, I know that this is not going to be part of at least this version of the sim but perhaps it could be considered being implemented as an option in future versions for those players that want it.

 

Anyhow, just my $.02.

 

Gary

[arjisme]

I did a little looking (searched using google) and turned up the thread below.  There might be others, but I didn't find them.  Maybe Luke knows of other discussions?

 

Here's the google search I used:  http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22pilot+body%22+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fforum.il2sturmovik.com%2F

 

And here's the thread:

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/4991-oculus-rift-pilot-body/

 

[arjisme]

I can understand your point of view but I would have to say that to see all of the controls move magically by themselves is a bit jarring to me.  I do think that the lag problem could be dealt with by simply signalling the pilot's hand to quickly move as soon a the keys for the control are pressed.  There would be a slight lag, but i think even that could be minimized by simply adding a command to move the pilot's hand quickly to the appropriate control as part of the function of pressing the keys or operating the actual wheel/knob on your controller, if any.  You could allow a slight lag after adjusting the control before the pilot moves his hand back to the throttle to allow for further trim/mixture/pitch adjustments.  This lag could even be user defined in the settings menu.  It may sound complicated but I don't think it would be any more so than adding a keystroke control for any other command.  I'm obviously not a programmer, but I think that of all the other much more complicated visual things that are going on in this sim that this would be a relatively simple thing to implement.  Maybe there are some programmers out there that might be willing to address this.  And again, I know that this is not going to be part of at least this version of the sim but perhaps it could be considered being implemented as an option in future versions for those players that want it.

 

Anyhow, just my $.02.

 

Gary

 

There are many problems to overcome.  One is the fact that we can invoke plane functions much more quickly or even simultaneously with our PC hardware than could be done in real life in the real plane.  Yeah, it's also been debated that we should have pilot ergonomic controls.  So that's related too.  But consider the LaGG-3, for example.  It has a throttle lever on top and a pitch control lever underneath that.  I have a G940 HOTAS, which includes a dual throttle.  I assigned one throttle to be my pitch control and one to be my actual throttle.  I can physically push both forward at the same time, but in game how could that possibly be animated?  That's just a simple example.

 

What if I want to turn on cockpit lights, open flaps, lower gear, reduce throttle, adjust pitch, open canopy, etc. all in quick succession.  With a HOTAS, it is possible to do all these things fairly quickly.  The game could not keep up with the necessary animations.  So you really are going to have to argue for ergonomic restrictions in order to have a pilot body, IMO.  And I am sure you can find at least one other thread (if not more) where we have debated adding in those.  Short answer:  consensus seems to be the majority don't want those.

 

I'll point out one other problem, which was raised in the thread I provided above.  You virtual pilot body will likely obscure your view of some instruments and controls.  In real life, you can easily move your body so that you can see those things.  Not so easy with a virtual body.

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

 

 

I'll point out one other problem, which was raised in the thread I provided above.  You virtual pilot body will likely obscure your view of some instruments and controls.  In real life, you can easily move your body so that you can see those things.  Not so easy with a virtual body.

This..plus I bet it would be a fps killer for some.

[phalcon51]

What if I want to turn on cockpit lights, open flaps, lower gear, reduce throttle, adjust pitch, open canopy, etc. all in quick succession.  With a HOTAS, it is possible to do all these things fairly quickly.  The game could not keep up with the necessary animations.  So you really are going to have to argue for ergonomic restrictions in order to have a pilot body,

 

I'll point out one other problem, which was raised in the thread I provided above.  You virtual pilot body will likely obscure your view of some instruments and controls.  In real life, you can easily move your body so that you can see those things.  Not so easy with a virtual body.

Point taken,  I guess I hadn't really given thought to many of your objections.  

 

Oh well, guess I'll have to build one of these and get the experience for real, although in a somewhat less complicated way:

 

http://airdromeaeroplanes.com/sopwithcamel.html

[steppenwolf]

Not being able to see your dials would be a problem, but a smart person could figure out a solution. I think what's being done in Star Citizen is exactly the kind of thing flight sims need. The ability to leave your aircraft coupled with nice pilot animations and character models is exactly the kind of evolution I'm waiting to see in combat sims. I think the walk, or run, to your plane plus the moments spent strapping in would be like nothing we've ever seen before. I don't see why the 'sim' has to stop at the plane, or why flight sims can't move into new territory. 

[LukeFF]

I think the walk, or run, to your plane plus the moments spent strapping in would be like nothing we've ever seen before. I don't see why the 'sim' has to stop at the plane, or why flight sims can't move into new territory. 

 

But really, what would that add to the gaming experience? For me, I play flight sims to fly airplanes, not to walk around them and admire the scenery.

Edited April 17, 2014 by LukeFF

[Cybermat47]

But really, what would that add to the gaming experience? For me, I play flight sims to fly airplanes, not to walk around them and admire the scenery.

I agree. It's something I'd like to see, but it could also take up the dev team's time when they could be working on more important stuff for the game.

[steppenwolf]

I play flight sims for the flying too, but also for a sense of history and escape. For me, modeling such things as a pilot's body adds a sense of being and presence where there was but a disembodied POV on a pivot. I'd like the ability to walk through a bomber fuselage or climb into a fighter, similar to what SC is doing, not just jump from phantom POV position to phantom POV position. I see those SC animations and think how they reinforce the experience of being inside a ship, not detract from it.      

[Alienax]

I agree, I play Sims for the immersion of combat, flying, what harm would having the option to be able to walk up to a plane be and have an animation of getting in similar to the one were you see the pilot eject. Its one of the selling points for Star Citizen. Of course saying that, it's not high on my list of wants or needs it just would be something cool to have eventually that or being able to run up and control AA....but that's a different topic 

[smink1701]

I'd settle for pilots wearing oxegyn mask.

[Brano]

Would it be enough to implement kind of movable camera as your head (like in FPS)? Then you could start mission lets say somewhere near airport control tower and ''run'' with this free camera navigating by arrows left/right/forward/backw.When at plane,you just click some asigned key and camera will start moving in scripted trajectory to simulate you grabbing your fat arse into cockpit.That should not be so hard to implement.But who am I to say,just dreaming

[dburne]

Well we have the pilot animation when bailing, not sure why it might be a bad thing to have in cockpit.

I would have to see and use it, to determine if it would be something I would like.

At the least I am sure it could be turned on and off with a toggle to give a choice.

 

Didn't the original DCS Black Shark have it? Come to think of it though, I think they did away with it in one of the udpates...

[LukeFF]

Would it be enough to implement kind of movable camera as your head (like in FPS)? Then you could start mission lets say somewhere near airport control tower and ''run'' with this free camera navigating by arrows left/right/forward/backw.When at plane,you just click some asigned key and camera will start moving in scripted trajectory to simulate you grabbing your fat arse into cockpit.That should not be so hard to implement.But who am I to say,just dreaming

 

Too much of a gimmick for me.

[RainMan]

The DSC Black Shark still has it, and so does the P-51 D. You can toggle the pilot's body on/off in DCS in those planes. I love that feature. Adds a lot of immersion to it. 

 

Having said that, it would be very, very nice if that could be added to BoS. As long as it can be toggled, it'd be a blast.  

[Wind]

One thing to consider is the body animation + actual latency in movements + G-forces and...and...

 

On your present computers, be it i5, i7 or whatnot, imagine your shaded and rendered hand dancing around knobs and dials..

You trim one second, next second you fiddle that, the next you dib that, the next second you dribble that.. all the while pulling

from negative 2 Gs to positive 6Gs.

Everything would have to be calculated, like, if you would even be able to do that manouvering and how much time it would actually

take for a strong 175cm and 76kg man with the upper body strength of X to do that.

 

At the present we can tap the inputs in from the comforts of our lazyboys while pulling 7Gs all day long but in the real life you would have quite a

bit different results.

[SharpeXB]

The pilot body usually looks terrible. It's not like you want a bunch of rendering capability taken up by an animated body, you'd just end up turning it off. It would block your view of controls. And when you look backwards you'd see yourself headless! There are some FOV tricks done in cockpit rendering that means your "eye" is not on your body.

[neuwildberry]

Personally I'd love a modelled pilot, it always a bit disconcerting when I can't see any legs on the pedals. I'd be happy to ignore the whole "you need to animate every button operation", just give me legs, arms on stick and throttle and a torso. Fade out the torso if your camera gets close to seeing a headless body to simulate the pilot moving around to get a better view. Or fix the camera on a virtual neck, restricting your head movements so that wont't happen. Or do some shader tricks and blur out the lower part of your screen if you get dangerously close to seeing just your empty neck. I dunno, there are options out there.

 

If it ever were to happen, it really has to be an optional thing though, considering the polarised opinions here

[Finkeren]

This is one of those issues, where there really isn't gonna be a truly satisfying solution until we have true VR controlled by a force feedback motion capture suit, and by the time that becomes available, we'll all be busy playing pornographic games.

[ST_ami7b5]

^^ LOL!

[malcheus]

The arms would block the view on some panels, right? Fos those of us without trackIR it's quite a hassle to move around the hear to look around the arms.

Also, I want a little dude in a wingsuit flying around the plane when using external views. 

[AceRevo]

I dont really see why we shouldnt be able to have it with the option to set it to ON or OFF. Personally, I would set it to OFF becouse legs and arms would be in the way for such as instruments etc. 

Since we dont have any kind of a pilot in the seat visually, it makes me wonder if we even have some kind of a pilot ''dm model'', is it possible to kill a plane by killing the pilot? Im sure a few 20mm's to its head would bring most planes down.. 

[Talisman]

Please, no pilot. Never want to see pilot in my plane. Never, never, never, lol. No pilot in my plane. Big thank you. I am the pilot, not a cartoon.

[migmadmarine]

I noticed again today that our own pilots don't cast shadows. All the rest do, but not the player's pilot, which is a bit weird when one can see their canopy's shadow on the wing, but not their own head... 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I noticed again today that our own pilots don't cast shadows. All the rest do, but not the player's pilot, which is a bit weird when one can see their canopy's shadow on the wing, but not their own head

Hasn't bothered me in the least. This argument is really pointless. The Dev's have stated directly it will not be implemented. You can argue the merits or counter but in the end it is going to have no effect on the game whatsoever.

[migmadmarine]

I'm not arguing that this has to be fixed, all I mean is it would be nice if the opportunity should arise, it would be a nice touch, but not critical. 

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Id rather have drivable tanks. (OH NO I DI ENT!)

[StG2_zulu354]

Qhen I had a look on Warthunder weeks ago, I recognized that it simulates a pilots body. But I didn't missed it, neighter in original IL-2 nor in CloD nor I miss it yet. When I fly I concentrate on my instruments and the sky. I would go that far to say: An IL-2 game with a pilots body is no IL l-2 game.

 

What I'd prefere is, that the pilots head from my wingman qould look in the direction he looks. Would be cool photo stuff. :D but it's a subordinate feature.

[SharpeXB]

This is why there shouldn't be a pilot body in flight sims

 

[BlackDevil]

I dont really see why we shouldnt be able to have it with the option to set it to ON or OFF. Personally, I would set it to OFF becouse legs and arms would be in the way for such as instruments etc. 

Since we dont have any kind of a pilot in the seat visually, it makes me wonder if we even have some kind of a pilot ''dm model'', is it possible to kill a plane by killing the pilot? Im sure a few 20mm's to its head would bring most planes down.. 

 

You don´t fly RoF, the other 777 sim ?

[AceRevo]

You don´t fly RoF, the other 777 sim ?

I dont really fly BoS neither becouse im still waiting for my JS to arrive which should take about two weeks now! I got RoF downloaded, same with DCS. Flying Simulator Battles with mouse/keyboard in WarThunder you cannot see my pilot as I've ''turned it off''. 

[VoodooShark]

from what i've heard it wold be good for rift users to have the option. not seeing a body when looking down might feel a bit weird

[SharpeXB]

The problem in flight sims, as illustrated by the headless screenshot above is your FOV isn't exactly from your virtual head. It's offset back so you can see your own cockpit. So when you look at 6:00 you'd be seeing yourself. Plus there's the problem of the pilot body blocking your view of the instruments. Pilot bodies are therefore probably found more in flying "games" where the player doesn't care about the above limitations. DCS above has a "game" mode where the pilot body might be more popular. I would have to imagine any "sim" mode players have it switched off.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

from what i've heard it wold be good for rift users to have the option. not seeing a body when looking down might feel a bit weird

Why would it be weird? When I look down with my TrakIR I look at my gauges and switches on screen. I never look at my real hands/HOTAS. Not really different.

[SharpeXB]

Can we pick the uniform we are wearing too? I want to look down and see a Knight Cross.

[Finkeren]

I'm waiting for the first "nude patch"....