"no cockpit" view previewed in new game or not ?

[hkle]

Hi folks

 

It may sound silly to you professionals, but I always enjoyed IL2 (and CLOD) without cockpit (as one of the standard options for those games).

 

I know, that ROF never adopted this possibility - although I own the ROF game since longtime, I never really came to play it because I do not like cockpit view.

 

So - my question - as ROF team has now taken over the IL2 series - will there be an option to play without cockpit like in the old IL2 and CLOD times ? For me, not including

this option would be a deal breaker, as I am an occasional player only.

 

thanx for answering

 

 

HKLE

[Rama]

Seems to me the dev allready answered there would be no WWV.

[Bearcat]

Really? I did not know that. I thought they werr still working that out. That would be a mistake IMO.

[Ala13_Kike]

And what about the people that have one "cockpit home made"? Not my case, but I think that the people that have one cockpit in her home will apreciate this possibility

[FlatSpinMan]

I thought I'd heard there would be no "no cockpit" view, too.

[JG4_Sputnik]

I thought I'd heard there would be no "no cockpit" view, too.

same here

[hkle]

well - no money from my side ..  

[Mysticpuma]

It would be a shame not to have a WWV, for no other reason than when playing back the footage, it makes it easy to create Guncamera footage and flyby views. If the WWV is unavailable only when being played, then maybe I can see the reason, although limiting access to rookie players maybe detrimental to a wide base of purchasers, I'm sure we all have had a play with the cockpit off? I think if the WWV is allowed in replays, that would be a fair compromise?

 

Cheers, MP 

[CUJO_1970]

No WWV = big mistake.

 

Don't limit the genre - let people decide for themselves. No-pit servers were abundant in Hyperlobby during IL/2's heyday - in fact some of the biggest rooms were pit-off and they were full of noobs trying to learn the game. These were new customers to the genre: New *paying*customers. 

 

Why in the world would you limit that?

[RickNZRickRuski]

I have already suggested a no cp view for B.o.S. but haven't seen any reply from an official source.

 

I have also sent a personal message to Jason at the R.o.F. forum requesting a no cp view for that also but haven't even had a reply, very disappionting. I would have thought that at the very least I could have expected a reply even if the answer was no.

[elf2010]

No WWV = i don't buy it !!!

[TJT]

I have a recollection of Jason answering no to the no cockpit view too, that they'd keep things inline with RoF. 

[RickNZRickRuski]

The last thing I remember coming from the development team was that the new B.o.S. would follow the original Il2 method, now that and all expansion of that series had a "no cockpit" view. Have they changed their mind on this?. If there is going to be full cockpit only then that will put a lot of purchasers off the new series. It certainly has stopped me from buying more aircraft in R.o.F. (virtually don't even bother with it now even though I think that the graphics are very good). Bad eyesight and older years contribute to my decision with what I purchase in flight sims.

Edited March 16, 2013 by RickRuski

[hiro]

I'm w/ mystic on this, wwv gives the soaring bird camera angle. Amazing machinimas have used external and wwv views. Another point is Il 2 had it, and a true sucessor does everything good abOut the original and exceeds it.

 

Also option to have it is better than not having it, in principle. I know the "pros" or hist guys say real pilots didn't have it but this is a game.

 

I could understand the devs saying no if time was a factor, but put on the sequel list.

 

Also did the devs post no externals in the Russian forums ? Quotes or links would help to verify given bearcats response.

 

Also I agree with wwv opening the game up to as many as possible. I remember ppl posting in 1946 forum polls they started as wwv means but went full pit later.

 

[Rjel]

My first thought too was a no cockpit view makes for a better guncam effect. Maybe something else is in the work with regards to that.

[6BLbrando]

Wonder Woman view may be good for the 1% (or less) who like to dabble in movie-making, but in an arena it is nothing better than a lazy man's cheat. Don't want to roll your aircraft? Never mind - look through the floor, the wing, the engine, out through your ass, anywhere, it doesn't matter.

Though we mostly loved IL-2 during its long career doesn't mean there were things wrong with it.

 

B

[Bearcat]

There is nothing wrong with open pits as long as the feature is setable serverside. I fail to grasp why so many think it is a cheat or should not be an option because they do not like it. The views in BoS should have at least the same options as in IL2 with maybe a few additiinal ones.

[Mysticpuma]

Wonder Woman view may be good for the 1% (or less) who like to dabble in movie-making, but in an arena it is nothing better than a lazy man's cheat. Don't want to roll your aircraft? Never mind - look through the floor, the wing, the engine, out through your ass, anywhere, it doesn't matter.

Though we mostly loved IL-2 during its long career doesn't mean there were things wrong with it.

 

B

 

Fortunately most good software developers actually let the Server choose the options, so having WWV  in the game has no benefit if the Server sets cockpits to locked? I'm sure that 1C/777 are aware of this, so I think have WWV is not really a problem?

[Furio]

There is nothing wrong with open pits as long as the feature is setable serverside. I fail to grasp why so many think it is a cheat or should not be an option because they do not like it. The views in BoS should have at least the same options as in IL2 with maybe a few additiinal ones.

Agreed. "Option" is the magic word!

[gavagai]

War Thunder has wonder woman view.

[startrekmike]

As a ROF player, I think that a large part of the difference between the aircraft is the visibility that they each offer, this can change your tactics and your approach for each plane and is part of the very core of what ROF represents, the fact that the Spad has pretty poor visibility is one of the reasons people fly it the way they do, landing a DR-1 would not nearly be as authentic without having the "window blind" effect of the wings blocking your view.

 

  So, here is where I ask the tough question, is it really good for new players to start with such a handicap as not having a cockpit? is this something that we can expect a new player to use until some magic point where they say "I guess I don't need this anymore" and move on to using the cockpit proper?

 

  This kind of thing splits a community in a way that makes no real sense, ROF does not have a no-cockpit view and it does not suffer from it at all, in fact, I would say (as I said before) that it is a ESSENTIAL part of the experience and what makes one aircraft different from another in a concrete way.

 

  So, yeah, I don't really get how WWV is good for new players, I mean, it is better to learn with a cockpit because you won't have to deal with it later and it will open you up to more server options (mostly realism servers) in the long run, you won't need to try to find servers that are WWV friendly.

 

  .

[smink1701]

I think offering "no cockpit" as an option would be the best way to go.  Since ROF does not offer this I'm thinking it will be the same in BOS.  If this is the case I think everyone will adapt and get used to it.  I think it would be neat if during a recored mission playback you could select "Gun Camera View" and replicate the look of WW2 footage. 

[startrekmike]

I think offering "no cockpit" as an option would be the best way to go.  Since ROF does not offer this I'm thinking it will be the same in BOS.  If this is the case I think everyone will adapt and get used to it.  I think it would be neat if during a recored mission playback you could select "Gun Camera View" and replicate the look of WW2 footage. 

 

 

  I love the idea of a "gun camera view" during playback of saved mission recordings, that would essentially solve the major issue with not having a wonder woman view.

 

  This is the kind of thing I can get behind.

[hkle]

As a ROF player, I think that a large part of the difference between the aircraft is the visibility that they each offer, this can change your tactics and your approach for each plane and is part of the very core of what ROF represents, the fact that the Spad has pretty poor visibility is one of the reasons people fly it the way they do, landing a DR-1 would not nearly be as authentic without having the "window blind" effect of the wings blocking your view.

 

  So, here is where I ask the tough question, is it really good for new players to start with such a handicap as not having a cockpit? is this something that we can expect a new player to use until some magic point where they say "I guess I don't need this anymore" and move on to using the cockpit proper?

 

  This kind of thing splits a community in a way that makes no real sense, ROF does not have a no-cockpit view and it does not suffer from it at all, in fact, I would say (as I said before) that it is a ESSENTIAL part of the experience and what makes one aircraft different from another in a concrete way.

 

  So, yeah, I don't really get how WWV is good for new players, I mean, it is better to learn with a cockpit because you won't have to deal with it later and it will open you up to more server options (mostly realism servers) in the long run, you won't need to try to find servers that are WWV friendly.

 

  .

 

Well. I agree with the players, who ARE playing.

 

I originally bought ROF not knowing, that there is no such option as "no cockpit" - I never really played it afterwards, as I do not like it in this way. So - I never bought all the extras and goodies afterwards because I do not like it. I am an occasional gamer, not a pilot. As nice as ROF seems to be, for me, the limitations of an "always on" cockpit ruins my personal game experience - and I always play offline.

 

IL2 and COD used to be different ...

[startrekmike]

Well. I agree with the players, who ARE playing.

 

I originally bought ROF not knowing, that there is no such option as "no cockpit" - I never really played it afterwards, as I do not like it in this way. So - I never bought all the extras and goodies afterwards because I do not like it. I am an occasional gamer, not a pilot. As nice as ROF seems to be, for me, the limitations of an "always on" cockpit ruins my personal game experience - and I always play offline.

 

IL2 and COD used to be different ...

 

 

   I fully understand what you are saying but I think the onus is on you to do the research and ask on the forums before you purchase a product, it is part of the core ROF experience to have that cockpit, this is not about personal preference, this is a core mechanic that makes ROF play like it does.

 

   The cockpits in Rise of flight are important, they are not just some thing for the rivet counting sim veterans, they are part of the overall experience and not only increase immersion but also provide you will all the information you need, this in conjunction with the visibility limitations makes each plane a different tactical experience.

 

  if you remove the cockpit than you remove a very important gameplay variable, this might not be a big deal in games like War thunder of even IL-2 1946 (it is older after all) but now it is just a crutch, a handicap that does more to hurt a new players skill than help them.

 

  I think part of the simulation experience is being willing to learn how to do things, this is why many players flock to things like DCS A-10C, it does not hold your hand, it does not cater to your every want and desire, same with ROF, you can't just hop in a plane and go, you need to learn how the planes actually work and use them the best you can, it won't hold your hand, it expects more out of you as a player, dealing with cockpit visibility is part of what simulations are nowadays so perhaps now is the best time to learn and adapt, you may not want to now but I think you will find that it is not as hard or undesirable as you are making it for yourself.

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

I personally always flew IL2 with the cockpit on, mainly because I got disoriented with it off. Coming to think of it, I even preferred X-wing with cockpit on...

 

But; I very much appreciate the option to turn it off for the few cases when I want to do recordings. I cannot believe it is technically difficult to turn off the cockpit in game. As long as it is an option, and as long as the server side has an option to force cockpit on, I see no real reason why such a solution should not be implemented.

[FlatSpinMan]

Remember, tons of players just aren't that into the sim thing, they just want to jump in a plane and shoot stuff down. It's a game so they're entitled to, and No Cockpit View might

really appeal.
There's no need for everyone to play the way you happen to like doing it.

[Bearcat]

As a ROF player, I think that a large part of the difference between the aircraft is the visibility that they each offer, this can change your tactics and your approach for each plane and is part of the very core of what ROF represents, the fact that the Spad has pretty poor visibility is one of the reasons people fly it the way they do, landing a DR-1 would not nearly be as authentic without having the "window blind" effect of the wings blocking your view.

 

  So, here is where I ask the tough question, is it really good for new players to start with such a handicap as not having a cockpit? is this something that we can expect a new player to use until some magic point where they say "I guess I don't need this anymore" and move on to using the cockpit proper?

 

  This kind of thing splits a community in a way that makes no real sense, ROF does not have a no-cockpit view and it does not suffer from it at all, in fact, I would say (as I said before) that it is a ESSENTIAL part of the experience and what makes one aircraft different from another in a concrete way.

 

  So, yeah, I don't really get how WWV is good for new players, I mean, it is better to learn with a cockpit because you won't have to deal with it later and it will open you up to more server options (mostly realism servers) in the long run, you won't need to try to find servers that are WWV friendly.

 

  .

 

That is not a tough question at all.. The answer is not tough either it is quite simple.. The short answer is Yes. That is exactly what happens in most cases. A crutch is only a crutch to a person who does not need it.. before that point it is a necessary tool to assist one in getting around in a situation where they would not be able to effectively otherwise.

 

The more elaborate answer is.. You let a new player start where he is most comfortable.. and as long as the option is settable on the server side I do not understand what the problem is. I cannot speak for RoF but I do not anyone who has been flying in any other sim with open pit view as an option who has been flying it for more than a year or so and still uses open pit view online.. Even if they close the pit with map icons.. which I think is particularly "gamey" but having the option is a good thing as well... but eventually most folks do gravitate toward the locked pit on their own. I am of the opinion that scalability is a necessity for any sim to be successful long enough to  become a great product.. IL2 is still around today because it appealed to a very broad spectrum of potential simmers.. You can go from flying on rails in an open pit with arrows and radar and bouncing on the ground .. to white knuckle, pulse pounding, head on a swivel, better check that temp gauge and that ball action with a few button clicks and/or config edits.  That is the way that BoS should be. At least IMO.. Not built as some elitist tool that only the few.. the proud.. the chosen.. can fly. That will mean that once it gets to us.. the die hards who have been doing this for a while that will be it.. The guys who want a different experience will gravitate to whatever the more arcadey sim is out there .. and BoS needs to be able to go from arcade to hard core and most points in between.

 

The thing that some forget it ... everyone may not want the simulation experience .. particularly the WWII sim experience ... at least not right off the bat.. like FSM said.. some people just want to hop in a plane and fly around.. and shoot stuff.. but if the product is built in such a way as to appeal to that guy .. and the hard core simmer he has the potential to become then that product will be more of a success than one that does not do those things.

 

I keep harping on this... but IL2 needs to be the benchmark in just about every category that makes a great flight sim.. start from there and go up.. and it is almost a guaranteed success..  You don't even have to go up extremely high.. just higher than IL2. I cannot prove this but I am pretty certain that if CoD had been released as IL2 with better graphics, some more features that we now have in modded 4.11.1, and an improved FM/DM we would not be here now discussing BoS we would probably be waiting with baited breath for the 3rd or 4th installment in the SoW series.

[dburne]

 

 

The thing that some forget it ... everyone may not want the simulation experience .. particularly the WWII sim experience ... at least not right off the bat.. like FSM said.. some people just want to hop in a plane and fly around.. and shoot stuff.. but if the product is built in such a way as to appeal to that guy .. and the hard core simmer he has the potential to become then that product will be more of a success than one that does not do those things.

 

 

 

Agreed!

The more folks the sim can bring into this hobby, the better all the way around!

[startrekmike]

That is not a tough question at all.. The answer is not tough either it is quite simple.. The short answer is Yes. That is exactly what happens in most cases. A crutch is only a crutch to a person who does not need it.. before that point it is a necessary tool to assist one in getting around in a situation where they would not be able to effectively otherwise.

 

The more elaborate answer is.. You let a new player start where he is most comfortable.. and as long as the option is settable on the server side I do not understand what the problem is. I cannot speak for RoF but I do not anyone who has been flying in any other sim with open pit view as an option who has been flying it for more than a year or so and still uses open pit view online.. Even if they close the pit with map icons.. which I think is particularly "gamey" but having the option is a good thing as well... but eventually most folks do gravitate toward the locked pit on their own. I am of the opinion that scalability is a necessity for any sim to be successful long enough to  become a great product.. IL2 is still around today because it appealed to a very broad spectrum of potential simmers.. You can go from flying on rails in an open pit with arrows and radar and bouncing on the ground .. to white knuckle, pulse pounding, head on a swivel, better check that temp gauge and that ball action with a few button clicks and/or config edits.  That is the way that BoS should be. At least IMO.. Not built as some elitist tool that only the few.. the proud.. the chosen.. can fly. That will mean that once it gets to us.. the die hards who have been doing this for a while that will be it.. The guys who want a different experience will gravitate to whatever the more arcadey sim is out there .. and BoS needs to be able to go from arcade to hard core and most points in between.

 

The thing that some forget it ... everyone may not want the simulation experience .. particularly the WWII sim experience ... at least not right off the bat.. like FSM said.. some people just want to hop in a plane and fly around.. and shoot stuff.. but if the product is built in such a way as to appeal to that guy .. and the hard core simmer he has the potential to become then that product will be more of a success than one that does not do those things.

 

I keep harping on this... but IL2 needs to be the benchmark in just about every category that makes a great flight sim.. start from there and go up.. and it is almost a guaranteed success..  You don't even have to go up extremely high.. just higher than IL2. I cannot prove this but I am pretty certain that if CoD had been released as IL2 with better graphics, some more features that we now have in modded 4.11.1, and an improved FM/DM we would not be here now discussing BoS we would probably be waiting with baited breath for the 3rd or 4th installment in the SoW series.

 

 

  I appreciate the time you put into this answer and I largely agree with you, I just don't really see how not having a cockpit is a real help, I mean, what kind of advantage is it actually giving a new player?

 

  Also, I don't really think cockpits are part of a more hardcore sim experience, perhaps they make things a little more difficult but not in the same way as full engine management or realistic flight models, I mean, it is simply getting used to a specific view of the gameplay and that is something that many gamers are more than capable of doing.

 

  It is not a big deal if it is a option but I do think you are running the risk of splitting a fanbase between those who just don't like having the "limitation" of a cockpit view and those who don't, you won't really have a middle ground and for what? I mean, I still am not terribly convinced that a new player actually needs a no-cockpit view as a learning tool, I still don't know what it actually gets them other than disorienting lack of a reference point.

 

  Anyway, a option is fine but there are drawbacks to it.

[I/JG27_Rollo]

  I appreciate the time you put into this answer and I largely agree with you, I just don't really see how not having a cockpit is a real help, I mean, what kind of advantage is it actually giving a new player?

 

  [...]

Simple: learning where to shoot.

 

I learned shooting in IL-2 back in 2002 to a great degree with the cockpit off. When an enemy disappears under your nose with cockpit on then it's not a problem for an experienced player.

A new player however has no idea how far he actually has to lead the target in order for his bullets to hit.

With cockpit off you can see where your tracers are going and adjust your shooting so later, when you fly with cockpit on you will know what to do.

 

IMO a no-cockpit option is an invaluable help to new players in learning how to aim properly.

Edited March 20, 2013 by I/JG27_Rollo

[DD_fruitbat]

No cockpit = better/easier SA, one (big) thing less for new players to worry about.

 

I started playing il2 cockpit off, because i wasn't into flight sims before, and treated it as an arcade game to start with, and then over time got more into it, and for many years now only play cockpit on.

 

Quite possibly I might never have got hooked if it wasn't for the ability to play the game at different levels, and at the start cockpit off.

 

Anyway, Devs have said no, and i doubt very much they will change there mind, which is a shame.

Edited March 20, 2013 by fruitbat

[Sokol1]

My first thought too was a no cockpit view makes for a better guncam effect. Maybe something else is in the work with regards to that.

 

If they include the hability  to record action with "guncan" point of view, no "WW" need...

 

Sokol1

[Freycinet]

One thing to consider is that if they didn't plan to implement Wonder-woman view then it will take quite some coding to have it. Just think of all the virtual, "floating" instruments they'd need to create. It isn't just a question of removing something quite easily. "Feature creep" comes to mind and that is definitely something to be avoided with a development schedule as aggressive as the one the team has told us about.

 

If they don't envision WWV I think they should just leave it to other games and instead focus on the more hard-core simming aspects. It is not as if they have endless time and resources.  

[Bearcat]

Simple: learning where to shoot.

 

I learned shooting in IL-2 back in 2002 to a great degree with the cockpit off. When an enemy disappears under your nose with cockpit on then it's not a problem for an experienced player.

A new player however has no idea how far he actually has to lead the target in order for his bullets to hit.

With cockpit off you can see where your tracers are going and adjust your shooting so later, when you fly with cockpit on you will know what to do.

 

IMO a no-cockpit option is an invaluable help to new players in learning how to aim properly.

 

+1

 

No cockpit = better/easier SA, one (big) thing less for new players to worry about.

 

I started playing il2 cockpit off, because i wasn't into flight sims before, and treated it as an arcade game to start with, and then over time got more into it, and for many years now only play cockpit on.

 

Quite possibly I might never have got hooked if it wasn't for the ability to play the game at different levels, and at the start cockpit off.

 

Anyway, Devs have said no, and i doubt very much they will change there mind, which is a shame.

 

+1

 

I did not start flying in the pit till after I started to get on servers on HL that had locked pits. Off line and prior to that I flew with an open pit. In CFS where I flew for a year before I got into IL2 I flew open pit but in CFS the setting was not server side .. it was client side .. so it never even occurred to me to put the pit on .. others were flying with the pit on all the while. This is why I say that it should be settable server side.. This way people can fly how they want where they want.. For this sim to be successful it cannot just depend on the guys who have been doing it for the past decade and have no problems flying in a server with no visual aids what soever..For BoS to be successful I say again .. it needs to appeal to as broad a base as possible and be scalable to as wide range of tastes as possible.. From my experience most arcade flyers don't stay that way.. They may never go full switch.. but they all progress as thier skills progress and they need more of a challenge.. This sim needs to take that into consideration.

[Streiff]

So, they start of by excluding the most basic thing in a successful flight sim. Dont really know how to react to such a decision.

 

Makes me very hesitant to the rest of the development when a dev team, right of the bat, fails miserably in understanding basic things when it comes to what simmers want and don't want. Whats next, the ability to land is deemed unnecessary?

[Sim]

So where exactly the devs said no to "no cockpit" view? It's not in developer diaries. Was it on the russian forum?

[Mysticpuma]

One more point to add, I presume that popularity means extra sales, means revenue, means more additions and the crew can keep working? I used to be a regular at Warclouds (locked cockpits) and there was a really healthy crowd there. However every time I loaded Hyperlobby and browsed to WC, I would often see 60/70/80+ players on various servers, all with external views and cockpits on or off (player choice). UK Dedicated was a very popular server for the WWV crowd.

 

The thing many posters here are missing, is that as much as this is a Simulation, some players really just want to have a game of "airquake" occasionally. Imagine it as R & R from Simulation. The reaosn the WWV servers were so full was because 'lots' of players just enjoyed having fun letting there hair down and playing Arcade mode.

 

It's nothing to do with historical accuracy, it's about having some software, making it available to multiple abilities of player type, and letting them do what THEY want to do with the game, not having poe faced historical buffs saying "sorry, it's my way or no way!"

 

I prefer closed cockpit, but I had a heck of a lot of fun at "airquake" before I decided to get serious.

 

This software should cater for all players, all abilities and all attitudes, not just one elite group?

 

Cheers, MP

[Heywooood]

I suppose if I had a homebuilt 'pit I might be upset about the lack of WWV

 

but for those who say they need to see where their bullets are going?  practice in the 'pit - its non fatal when you get shot down so practice costs nothing

 

I also suppose that if I had a homebuilt 'pit I would be single and lonely....lol - for you married fellers that have both please know that I hate you bitterly

[I/JG27_Rollo]

but for those who say they need to see where their bullets are going?  practice in the 'pit - its non fatal when you get shot down so practice costs nothing

Having a no-pit option still is more beneficial.

Yes you can train in the pit but it's still a guessing game. If you have hit your opponent then you still don't know on what angle that happend. Seeing where the bullets are actually going can help develop a better feeling of where the crosshair has to be...