Soviet trials of Bf 109G-2, G-4

[bivalov]

i think, it's news for english speakers here - in unofficial stream by =FB=Weeper, in end of stream, VikS said about "3 minutes of 1.42 ata for DB 601 E, like and for fw 190 and bf 109 g-2"...

 

well, looks like for E it's correctly at end'42 - beginning'43... but, i seen many opinions, mentions, documents etc about starting of using of 1.42 ata for gustav, in second half'43 plus this page, of course... about fw 190, i can remember only manuals'43 with 3 mins, and i seen information about 1 min and even aircraft with hmm... "автомат форсажа", like for some early DB 601s, if i not mistaken...

[Kurfurst]

As far as I can ascertain, 1,42ata was ultimately cleared in about October 1943.

 

But hmm... given that we have a Staligrad scenario here, it might be interesting that it appears that the DB 605A manual was revised in November 1942, clearing the 1,42ata rating (which was still blocked in the October 1942 manual!). I am pretty sure it was banned again sometime in the spring of 1943 again, but if we speak of just the period of November 1942 - Feburary 1943, 1.42ata might be entirely right for the G-2, too.

 

And an 1,42ata early 109G, a G-2 was a mighty impressive plane, with a SL speed of about 550 kph and ca 685 kph top speed at ~ 7000 m. Its pretty much a pseudo "K-4 early", in fact...  

Edited February 11, 2014 by VO101Kurfurst

[Narushima]

As far as I can ascertain, 1,42ata was ultimately cleared in about October 1943.

 

But hmm... given that we have a Staligrad scenario here, it might be interesting that it appears that the DB 605A manual was revised in November 1942, clearing the 1,42ata rating (which was still blocked in the October 1942 manual!). I am pretty sure it was banned again sometime in the spring of 1943 again, but if we speak of just the period of November 1942 - Feburary 1943, 1.42ata might be entirely right for the G-2, too.

 

And an 1,42ata early 109G, a G-2 was a mighty impressive plane, with a SL speed of about 550 kph and ca 685 kph top speed at ~ 7000 m. Its pretty much a pseudo "K-4 early", in fact...  

 

Hey Kurfurst, could you upload the November manual to your site? I'd love to see it

[bivalov]

As far as I can ascertain, 1,42ata was ultimately cleared in about October 1943.

 

...it might be interesting that it appears that the DB 605A manual was revised in November 1942, clearing the 1,42ata rating (which was still blocked in the October 1942 manual!).

again, thx for your explanation and opinion... i carefully checked ww2performance and your site, i cant see why it should be not so, at least, 1.42 ata will be great addition as "what if" or "short reality"...

 

And an 1,42ata early 109G, a G-2 was a mighty impressive plane, with a SL speed of about 550 kph

absolutely agree, although it's only 1(3?) minute, for 42-43 it's amazing performance... but why only 550?

 

g-2 early with old tail wheel and wings (sorry for this simplication) it's 535-537 kph, which calculated and confirmed later, plus early chart on site of M.Raush with f-4 1.42, fw 190 and g-2 shows around 570 kph... well, even it's calculation... so, personally i expect at least around 565 kph at sl, moreover, with -15 under stalingrad it's will be around 600! damn... or here some mistake with speeds?

 

anyway, lets wait... and i still think what "panzer galland" will be as modification...

[Kurfurst]

Hi,

 

On the subject of the November 1942 clearance of 1,42ata, 2800 U/min Start- und Notleistung rating of 1475/1550/1355 PS (SL/peak/FTH) for DB 605A-1:

[NZTyphoon]

As far as I can ascertain, 1,42ata was ultimately cleared in about October 1943.

 

But hmm... given that we have a Staligrad scenario here, it might be interesting that it appears that the DB 605A manual was revised in November 1942, clearing the 1,42ata rating (which was still blocked in the October 1942 manual!). I am pretty sure it was banned again sometime in the spring of 1943 again, but if we speak of just the period of November 1942 - Feburary 1943, 1.42ata might be entirely right for the G-2, too.

 

And an 1,42ata early 109G, a G-2 was a mighty impressive plane, with a SL speed of about 550 kph and ca 685 kph top speed at ~ 7000 m. Its pretty much a pseudo "K-4 early", in fact...  

On the other hand it could simply mean that the 1.42 ata rating was cleared prematurely by Daimler-Benz, only to discover that the ban had to be reimposed in December. As for speculation that 1.42 ata could be used up to the spring of 1943 - that's all it is, speculation without evidence. As it is a G-6 test dated 8 April 1943 still had the ban on using 1.42 ata http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/Me109_G6_WkNr_16647_Messbrief_p5.jpg

[NZTyphoon]

If you wish to know exactly what was approved for operational use within a specific time period.....then check the operating instructions!  There is no need to speculate, it is spelled out for the pilots and operators who operated the aircraft.

Good, lets see the October 1942 DB 605 manual, which apparently shows that the 1.42 ata rating was still banned, and lets see a manual for the Bf 109G-2 from - saaay - November 1942, showing that the ban was lifted; otherwise we have a January 1943 meeting with General Milch which discussed the DB 605's continued problems, stating categorically that the ban on higher boost pressures was still in place:

 

 

and no evidence in June that anything had improved:

 

 

[Kurfurst]

On the other hand it could simply mean that the 1.42 ata rating was cleared prematurely by Daimler-Benz, only to discover that the ban had to be reimposed in December. As for speculation that 1.42 ata could be used up to the spring of 1943 - that's all it is, speculation without evidence. As it is a G-6 test dated 8 April 1943 still had the ban on using 1.42 ata http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/Me109_G6_WkNr_16647_Messbrief_p5.jpg

 

What we know is that DB's manual in October 1942 still listed the banning on the 1.42ata, but a month later they revised the same manual and the notice of banning the Notleistung was no longer present. There is no doubt in anyone's mind the 605 was not yet ready for full release at that time, but the historical fact is that the full rating was cleared from November 1942 till sometime in early 1943 - the ban starts to re-appear in revised manuals from around March-April 1943. Granted this was only a period couple of months before the lubrication and other issues has been fully solved in September 1943, but this early un-banned period happens to coincide with the Battle of Stalingrad in which period 109Gs were allowed to use the full Notleistung, but perhaps only the full rpm range from late January 1943. The full rating was definitely banned by the spring of 1943, the manuals reflect it clearly.

 

What happened between that time is anyone's guess given the currently available documentation. The late January GL talks might be a clue, I am aware of them of course, but given its a transcript, its difficult to ascertain whether they summarize past events about the banning between June 1942 - November 1942, or refer to a recent decision, probably in January 1943, to limit manifold pressure. The choice of word about limiting manifold pressure, and not the rating itself is no accident, as although you seem to be rather selective in quoting the Mankau book, as the other GL meetings of the time also talk of an intent to reduce manifold pressure, but still allow for higher RPMs (2800), ie. a partial-ban of the Notleistung.

 

What can be said with certainty though is that the mystical "December recall", without any supporting manuals or papers remains entirely your speculation.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Rama

[NZTyphoon]

What we know is that DB's manual in October 1942 still listed the banning on the 1.42ata, but a month later they revised the same manual and the notice of banning the Notleistung was no longer present. There is no doubt in anyone's mind the 605 was not yet ready for full release at that time, but the historical fact is that the full rating was cleared from November 1942 till sometime in early 1943 - the ban starts to re-appear in revised manuals from around March-April 1943. Granted this was only a period couple of months before the lubrication and other issues has been fully solved in September 1943, but this early un-banned period happens to coincide with the Battle of Stalingrad in which period 109Gs were allowed to use the full Notleistung, but perhaps only the full rpm range from late January 1943. The full rating was definitely banned by the spring of 1943, the manuals reflect it clearly.

 

What happened between that time is anyone's guess given the currently available documentation. The late January GL talks might be a clue, I am aware of them of course, but given its a transcript, its difficult to ascertain whether they summarize past events about the banning between June 1942 - November 1942, or refer to a recent decision, probably in January 1943, to limit manifold pressure. The choice of word about limiting manifold pressure, and not the rating itself is no accident, as although you seem to be rather selective in quoting the Mankau book, as the other GL meetings of the time also talk of an intent to reduce manifold pressure, but still allow for higher RPMs (2800), ie. a partial-ban of the Notleistung.

 

What can be said with certainty though is that the mystical "December recall", without any supporting manuals or papers remains entirely your speculation.

 

Then no doubt Kurfurst can show us the relevant information from the October 1942 DB 605 manual, proving that the ban was still listed? Apart from that, the claim that the full rating was cleared from November 1942 to early 1943 is pure, unsupported speculation. Where are the documents showing (for example) Bf 109s being tested with full boost between November '42 and early '43? Where is the directive stipulating that 1.42 ata had been approved from November 1942.  Apart from a single document, which Kurfurst claims proves his "case"  there is nothing else to show that 1.42 ata was in use between November 1942 and early 1943.

[Kurfurst]

The evidence has been laid before the eyes of all, and now it is up to you, not me, to provide meaningful substance behind your unusual thesis other than these big words you wield so clumsily. I find little interest to dwell into that nonsense or waste any more time on disproving it further.

[MiloMorai]

So the engine should have random failures in game.

[Kurfurst]

Of 

Of further interest - http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/109G2_britg2trop/MET-109Gtrop_WdimPerf.html

 

 

ENGINE:

 

        Engine: DB 605, A or B series. Inverted 12-cylinder 

liquid-cooled "V", with a volumentric compression ratio of

7.3 to 7.5. The reduction gear ratios are as follows:

 

Series A         1 to 1.685

Series B         1 to 1.875

 

        The maximum permissible engine speed in level flight is

2,800 r.p.m and 3,000 r.p.m. in a dive. The German octane 

rating of the fuel used is 87.

 

        The engine ratings as given in one of the German

documents are shown in Table 1:

 

TABLE 1 (*OMMITTED*)

 

 

It is known, however, that the ratings 1 and 4 were

temporarily cancelled, and the engine was not supposed to

operate in excess of the "climb and combat" ratings 2 and 5.

 

        It is to be expected that this restriction will eventually

be removed, as engine cards were found on crashed aircraft

where the full ratings, i.e. 1 and 4 were given without any

restrictions.

 

        The take-off power (rating 1) is 1,455 b.h.p. at 1.42 ata

and 2,800 r.p.m. At the same boost and engine speed, but at a

height of 18,70 ft., the power given is 1,355 b.h.p.  No

reliable estimate of the maximum output can be given until such

time as a DB 605 engine has been examined and tested in this

country, but it is likely that the actual maximum power is

about 1,500 b.h.p. at a lower height then that given in Table 1,

i.e. say 15,000 ft. instead of 18,700 ft. (rating 4.).

 

        The oil consumption is given as .009 to .016 lb./hp/hr.

 

The weight of the engine, dry, is 1,540 lb. +3%.

[Rama]

Informations brought are interesting.

Please, could you continue this conversation without dispute and personal bashing?

 

Many thanks in advance.

[NZTyphoon]

The evidence has been laid before the eyes of all, and now it is up to you, not me, to provide meaningful substance behind your unusual thesis other than these big words you wield so clumsily. I find little interest to dwell into that nonsense or waste any more time on disproving it further.

What "evidence"? We have a claim by Kurfurst that the October 1942 DB 605 manual shows that 1.42 ata was banned: the evidence for this has not been produced.

 

Next he shows pages, allegedly from a November 1942 DB 605 manual, showing 1.42 ata: no evidence has been given that these pages do come from the November 1942 edition.

 

From this one document Kurfurst came to the conclusion that the ban was temporarily lifted from November 1942 to early 1943: there is no evidence for any of this.

Edited February 25, 2014 by NZTyphoon

[Kurfurst]

again, thx for your explanation and opinion... i carefully checked ww2performance and your site, i cant see why it should be not so, at least, 1.42 ata will be great addition as "what if" or "short reality"...

 

 

absolutely agree, although it's only 1(3?) minute, for 42-43 it's amazing performance... but why only 550?

 

g-2 early with old tail wheel and wings (sorry for this simplication) it's 535-537 kph, which calculated and confirmed later, plus early chart on site of M.Raush with f-4 1.42, fw 190 and g-2 shows around 570 kph... well, even it's calculation... so, personally i expect at least around 565 kph at sl, moreover, with -15 under stalingrad it's will be around 600! damn... or here some mistake with speeds?

 

anyway, lets wait... and i still think what "panzer galland" will be as modification...

 

Hi Bivalov,

 

Your numbers make sense and I get similiar numbers based on power increase. Its always a question though which "base" data you apply, as there are figures for the G-2 at 1,30 ata anywhere between ca 500 and 537 kph at SL... 

 

Also, I know of the calculated performance for the early 109G at 1,42ata from Herr Rausch, some mid-1942, ie. well before the clearance of the full rating in November 1942. They are mighty impressive at 570 kph @ SL and 700 @ 7000 m - just a hair bit short of the 109K, and that in 1942 where the top fighters struggled to reach even 600 km/h..! These results were calculated from test flown data of F-4 at 1,42ata, and they just might, however, reflect figures for the type with the proposed wheel well covers of 109G (but in the end, it not serialized, it had to wait for that until the 109K, though a reminder for that purpose was seen in the squarish wheel wells of the Gustav). I have some other calculation for 109G from mid-1942, with other improvements calculated in - the top speed was calculated at 737 km/h with the 1,42ata rating.

 

Again, mighty impressive, and I always feel that the 109G was a bigged missed opportunity in 1942, due to deratings of the engine and missed improvements, but even handicapped like this, it was probably the highest performance fighter at the time. Its my personal favourite, right behind the 109K of course.

 

Back on subject, I also have document for the 109G showing 1,42ata performance, these are somewhat lower than the ones calculated from the F-4 trials at Rechlin, but still very impressive and very much believable, if a bit on the conservative side, at 550 km/h at SL, 685 km/h at 7,4 km.

 

On the subject of Galland Panzer, I never though it was standard in 1942/early 1943 (yet), merely wished to point out that with the RoF engine custumization of planes, it would be a fun premium upgrade, like the rarer F-4/R1s or the G-2 itself.

Edited February 25, 2014 by VO101Kurfurst

[Crump]

engine cards were found on crashed aircraft

where the full ratings, i.e. 1 and 4 were given without any

restrictions.

That is about as definitive as it gets for evidence of operational use. The question becomes what did they change techically to allow the full rating and under what maintenance schedule did it occur?

 

Any ideas Kurfurst? Does the RLM list of technical changes include engine modifications? Perhaps the answer lies there?

 

That is a great find, btw. It was the KTB war diary that solved the mystery of how 1.78ata/1.82ata was achieved and cleared in the BMW801 series.

[303_Kwiatek]

109 G-6 standart fighter was faster no more then 20 km/h at all altitude range between 1.3 Ata 2600 RPMs and 1.42 Ata 2800 RPMs.

 

----------------1.3 Ata 2600------1.42 Ata 2800 RPMs

sea level ------  510 km/h-------------530 km/h

 

6.6 km----------630 km/h---------------640 km/h

 

Average results for 109 G-1/G-2 at. 1.3 Ata  was sea level -525 km/h and 650-660 km/h at 7.0 km. So i see no more then 550 km/h at sea level and 670-680 km/h at  ab.7 km with 1.42 Ata.

 

Often FTH maximum speed results in German documents which seemed "too high" are just without compressibilty correction - thats why are too high about 20-30 km/h depend of alt.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Kwiatek

[NZTyphoon]

Hi Bivalov,

 

Your numbers make sense and I get similiar numbers based on power increase. Its always a question though which "base" data you apply, as there are figures for the G-2 at 1,30 ata anywhere between ca 500 and 537 kph at SL... 

 

Also, I know of the calculated performance for the early 109G at 1,42ata from Herr Rausch, some mid-1942, ie. well before the clearance of the full rating in November 1942.

 

 

So how about showing us good, solid evidence that 1.42 ata was cleared in November 1942?

 

Apart from some pages from an undated  (supposedly November 1942) DB 605 manual - surely Kurfurst can produce the pages that show that the manual was from November 1942 - there nothing to prove that 1.42 ata was cleared for use until late 1943, except for Kurfurst's speculation based on one tiny shred of "evidence".

Edited February 25, 2014 by NZTyphoon

[Kurfurst]

So how about showing us good, solid evidence that 1.42 ata was cleared in November 1942?

 

Apart from some pages from an undated  (supposedly November 1942) DB 605 manual - surely Kurfurst can produce the pages that show that the manual was from November 1942 - there nothing to prove that 1.42 ata was cleared for use until late 1943, except for Kurfurst's speculation based on one tiny shred of "evidence".

 

Dear Jeff,

 

I see you have run into some difficulties interpreting the date of the DB 605A-B, Baureihe 0 u. A-1, Motoren-Handbuch posted in #45.

 

I am also interested in your interpretation of the following text on the cover page of the Motoren-Handbuch:

 

Stand November 1942

Ausgabe November 1942

 

Please let me know if you require my assistance in this - sometimes it may prove difficult for a person without any knowledge of the German language to correctly understand foreign language terms in these historic German papers. I often run into the same problem myself with historic Soviet-Russian documents. You may also try raise this question on my site's discussion board, it is a very friendly and helpful community, with many knowledgeable people interested in the Bf 109.

[Kurfurst]

That is about as definitive as it gets for evidence of operational use. The question becomes what did they change techically to allow the full rating and under what maintenance schedule did it occur?

 

Any ideas Kurfurst? Does the RLM list of technical changes include engine modifications? Perhaps the answer lies there?

 

That is a great find, btw. It was the KTB war diary that solved the mystery of how 1.78ata/1.82ata was achieved and cleared in the BMW801 series.

 

I would have to check, I also have a special DB 605 book detailed (and I really mean detailing) how to run in 605s, From a glance, it also gives instructions on how to run in for 1,42 ata, but given that the thing is 300+ pages and deeply technical, I had not yet the time go into all of its details.

[wastel]

Hey guys..just as hint. The 605 had no built in timer to blow up after 5min of 1.42ata use!

There was for sure an motor specification test sheet, like for everything we have here in germany.

There, durability and live time test cycles are described. i'm sure this is existent for the Db605 too

 

The enginge runs for several hours on an test rig accouring to the specification.

So if the specification says , 10h under full power must be achieved and the engine had problems after 5 or 6h, the test is n.o.k.

result:-> no clearance for 1.42ata

Thsi is engineering..it was this kind in the past and its the same during our times.

 

Do your really think an pre Nov.42 DB605a blows up after 5min usage of 1.42ata?  never! ..only if a bullet strikes it...

 

Do you really think your winter time car tieres with 210km/h speed limit will blow up if you are driving 212km/h????..for 5minutes :-)

[NZTyphoon]

Dear Jeff,

 

I see you have run into some difficulties interpreting the date of the DB 605A-B, Baureihe 0 u. A-1, Motoren-Handbuch posted in #45.

 

I am also interested in your interpretation of the following text on the cover page of the Motoren-Handbuch:

 

Stand November 1942

Ausgabe November 1942

 

Please let me know if you require my assistance in this - sometimes it may prove difficult for a person without any knowledge of the German language to correctly understand foreign language terms in these historic German papers. I often run into the same problem myself with historic Soviet-Russian documents. You may also try raise this question on my site's discussion board, it is a very friendly and helpful community, with many knowledgeable people interested in the Bf 109.

 

Dear Adam,

 

You have yet to produce the DB 605A-B, Baureihe 0 u. A-1, Motoren-Handbuch Stand October 1942 which you claim shows that the ban on 1.42 ata was still in place.

 

You have yet to show any other evidence that the ban was lifted, coinciding with the Battle of Stalingrad, nor have you shown any evidence that 109Gs were free to operate using 1.42 ata during this period.

 

You are the one making the assertion that the 109s operated with 1.42 ata from November 1942 to sometime in early 1943, yet you have failed to produce any evidence in support of this claim. When do you intend presenting some real evidence that Bf 109Gs were able to use 1.42 ata during the battle of Stalingrad?

Edited February 26, 2014 by NZTyphoon

[Kurfurst]

Dear Adam,

 

You have yet to produce the DB 605A-B, Baureihe 0 u. A-1, Motoren-Handbuch Stand October 1942 which you claim shows that the ban on 1.42 ata was still in place.

 

 

Hi Jeff,

 

Anything else?

[Crump]

 

I would have to check, I also have a special DB 605 book detailed (and I really mean detailing) how to run in 605s, From a glance, it also gives instructions on how to run in for 1,42 ata, but given that the thing is 300+ pages and deeply technical, I had not yet the time go into all of its details.

 

Look forward to hearing the details when you figure it out.  Good research and finds, btw.

[NZTyphoon]

Hi Jeff,

 

Anything else?

Thanks for that.

 

Now, please explain how you have come to the conclusion that the ban on using 1.42 ata was lifted from November 1942 until early 1943, based on the one November 1942 DB 605 manual, and please show what other evidence you have to back this claim.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Rama

[wastel]

@NZTyphoon,

 

check post No.45

 

Motor Manual from November 42. -> 1.42 ata is cleared. There is no deration mentioned like in the September version.

 

The time it was officially derated to 1.3ata again, Kurfurst has to check. I don't know the next dated motor manual with 1.42ata ban.  

 

Hard fact: Manual says Nov'42: 1.42 can be used.

 

Wastel

Edited February 27, 2014 by Rama

[NZTyphoon]

@NZTyphoon,

 

check post No.45

 

Motor Manual from November 42. -> 1.42 ata is cleared. There is no deration mentioned like in the September version.

 

The time it was officially derated to 1.3ata again, Kurfurst has to check. I don't know the next dated motor manual with 1.42ata ban.  

 

Hard fact: Manual says Nov'42: 1.42 can be used.

 

it isn't so hard, or?

Wastel

 

Again I ask how did Kurfurst make the giant leap of assuming that because 1.42 ata was cleared in a single November 1942 DB 605 manual it meant that it must have been cleared for operational use in 109G-2s through to early 1943? 

Edited February 27, 2014 by Rama

[Kurfurst]

Dear Jeff,

 

Apart from the complex cognitive process wastel described in detail on logic behind the lift of ban between the September and November state of the DB 605 manual (manuals weren't updated just for fun), I took another giant leap of faith and assumed that since the Bf 109G-2 had the Daimler Benz DB 605A, Baureihe 1 engine, and the Daimler Benz DB 605A, Baureihe 1 Motoren-Handbuch, Stand November 1942 indeed allows for the use of the Start- und Notleistung, it would follow that the Bf 109G-2 would be able to use of the Start- und Notleistung since November, too.

 

Furthermore, the British captured a number of DB manuals and an intact Bf 109G-2/trop, and have came to the same conclusion - see post no. 54.

 

The next known manuals that lists the ban again in place come from around March 1943.

 

Do you wish me to post a page from the Bf 109G manual as proof the plane had the Daimler Benz DB 605A, Baureihe 1 engine, just to make sure the chain of logic is complete and unbroken...?

 

Cheers,

 

KF

[MiloMorai]

Manuals are prepared months in advance of the date of issue. At the time of preparation data is included that is thought will be current at the time of issue.

 

Just because an engine manual says something can be used it is not necessarily true. DB cleared 1.98ata for use but the RLM did not. The RLM has the final word.

[wastel]

Just had a look to my 109 handbooks with following results:

 

G1/G3/G5, Handbook revision April 43, 1.42ata blocked

G1, Handbook revision June 43, 1.42ata aviable

G2/G3 Handbook revision August 43, 1.42ata aviable

 

I have no version between November 42 when 1.42ata was officially aviable and April 43, when it was officially blocked.

 

Without an Revision of Dezember, January, February or March we simply do NOT know when it was officially blocked again

 

so we have:

 

oktober 42, blocked, november 42 cleared------gap----April 43 blocked, June 43 cleared.

 

Too bad we are about to discuss the "gap" part

Edited February 27, 2014 by wastel

[JtD]

There are also Bf 110 handbooks, for instance for March, July and September 1943 (issued in June, July, August and October) and it is blocked in all of them. Which is kind of odd because at the same time Bf 109 manuals do not restrict the take off boost. Both refer to the same engine document, the DB 605 A/B manual. Which never makes a distinction between A and B when it comes to boost limits.

 

FWIW, the Motorenkarte of October 1942 was replaced with an updated version in July 1944, which has the limit removed. Since it is a disposable card, practice would not have it get corrections, rather a completely new card. Which means documents containing the limit would be around until mid 1944, which raises the questions what first the Luftwaffe mechanics and then the pilots went by.

 

It's also interesting that in December the first amendment to the engine part of the Bf 109 G-2 manual dated November 1942 was issued, which instructs about some shim installations, but makes no mention of the lift of the restriction which is still in that manual.

 

As always, I'm fascinated by the energy some put into these debates which clearly have no point. In cases like this, boost cleared or not in whichever document, we won't know for certain which unit or let alone aircraft actually had the restriction installed at what time unless we look into unit or even individual aircraft records.

[Crump]

There are also Bf 110 handbooks, for instance for March, July and September 1943 (issued in June, July, August and October) and it is blocked in all of them. Which is kind of odd because at the same time Bf 109 manuals do not restrict the take off boost. Both refer to the same engine document, the DB 605 A/B manual. Which never makes a distinction between A and B when it comes to boost limits.

 

 

 

 

Different installations require different instructions by convention.  This convention came about due to experience shows not all installations are equal.  Therefore all engine manufacturers print airframe specific operating limitations.  Example is the Lycoming O-360 found in the Mooney M-20 series has an rpm band restriction the most Lycoming O-360 installations do not require.

 

 

 

RPM/MP Restriction

Eliminated

 

 

 

http://gnaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Mooney-STC-2013.pdf

If Betreibsdatentafel reference cards were found in the cockpit of crashed Bf-109G2's authorizing 1.42ata, then 1.42ata was authorized for that aircraft.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Rama
removed personal stuff

[Crump]

I would look at the information in this manual closely:

 

 

Daimler Benz DB 605 A-B, Instandsetzungs-Vorschriften

Inhalt: Einleitung; Arbeitsumfang; Instandsetzungsvorschriften von Kolben, Zylinder, Schwinghebel, Nockenwelle, Einspritzpumpe, Lader usw. mit detaillierten technischen Beschreibungen von Prüfungen, Maßen, Verschleißangaben und Nachbearbeitungsvorschriften. April 1943, 260 S. mit 84 Abb.

 

[NZTyphoon]

Just had a look to my 109 handbooks with following results:

 

G1/G3/G5, Handbook revision April 43, 1.42ata blocked

G1, Handbook revision June 43, 1.42ata aviable

G2/G3 Handbook revision August 43, 1.42ata aviable

 

I have no version between November 42 when 1.42ata was officially aviable and April 43, when it was officially blocked.

 

Without an Revision of Dezember, January, February or March we simply do NOT know when it was officially blocked again

 

so we have:

 

oktober 42, blocked, november 42 cleared------gap----April 43 blocked, June 43 cleared.

 

Too bad we are about to discuss the "gap" part

 

Well the good news is that I have located a DB 605 Manual effective January 1943, issued  April 1943, so that will help fill in the gap; it'll take about another week to arrive.

 

As an interesting aside a 109G practice manual from December 1942 stipulates a maximum rating of 1.25 ata for "circuits and bumps';

 

[Kurfurst]

Please take the New Guniea or whatever discussion elsewhere.

 

This should be interesting.

[Rama]

I moved all off-topic stuff in a new thread, there

 

Just to keep this one on topic.

[Kurfurst]

Thx Rama.

[303_Kwiatek]

So the engine should have random failures in game.

 

All these disscusion and documents show to us  that 605A had several problems with runing at 1.42 Ata even if it was allowed for some time. It was often banned from used full power.

 

So i think  777 should make both version 1.3 Ata and 1.42 Ata and version with full rating 1.42 Ata should have freqently random failures when used full rating or if decide to make only 1.42 Ata version they should  account random engine failures in game.

[Crump]

 

So i think  777 should make both version 1.3 Ata and 1.42 Ata and version with full rating 1.42 Ata should have freqently random failures when used full rating or if decide to make only 1.42 Ata version they should  account random engine failures in game.

 

 

I agree.  Random and frequent failures is something they should do for every over boosted condition on every engine. 

[NZTyphoon]

This should be interesting.

 

That is an interesting document showing that the RAF were interested in gaining accurate performance figures and power curves from captured Luftwaffe aircraft; so refreshing to see that fact being acknowledged.