Project X-55 GERMANY-MOD

[A_S]

ORIGINAL

 

 

 

 

GERMANY-MOD

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

to be continued ...

Edited March 25, 2014 by A-S

[A_S]

.... next is new centering ..

 

 

[A_S]

Once finished:

- conventional or original spring and cone soluton will be replaces with 4-spring solution
- 0 (zero) center-play . meaning zero ! play at all - anywhere
- own recentering, but NO middle-center "hick" point (one can not "feel" the center - smooth movement-transition through the center)
- push and pull will required slightly bit more force than rolling right and left
- joystick centerpoint can be manually adjusted for calibration
- different control forces (springs) can be attached if desired

[GiConti]

Very nice.

Looks like a RC heli swashplate. haha

Can't wait to see the 4- spring solution and no middle-center hick point.

[A_S]

Because it IS

[JG27_Chivas]

I would definitely be interested in buying that mod.

[A_S]

I would have to pre-buy all components, prepare them and include an instruction how to replace the stock (+ concrete glue, washers, custrom spacer blocks and other materials required  etc. etc.) and then evaluate the whole mod (plus labor) ... and make a reasonable pricing for it (considering shipping aswell).

 

Keep in mind, that all parts (including gimbals) are custom made or modified in order to make everything match so nicely without ruining anything on the stick itself (the plastic-cast).

 

I could do that, but no promises made at this point as i have to calculate if that is even worth it for you not for me, because i already spent 200 eur just on the modifications and all the parts required. I didn´t think, that it will be that much, but little things summed up.

 

If i decide to do so, i will definitly be a helping hand in the construction (guidance).

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Maybe make a page with data for those interested making this modification? Of course with their own risk of porking the joystick, but nevertheless. Great looking mod!

[A_S]

Old software (7_0_31_78 ) did not have CALIBRATION




New software (7_0_32_81) has CALIBRATION (its about time they thought about that) .. finally something SMART
Note: new driver is available on saitek page but not madcatz yet.

[Pudfark]

Great find on the new software...many thanks for your contribution here. 

[A_S]

First  precission-test with new mod: (used software = Foxy´s Analyzer)

[A_S]

Edited March 31, 2014 by A-S

[A_S]

Pre alpha test model (fly-able).
A more sophisticated spring-center-system will follow:

Edited April 1, 2014 by A-S

[A_S]

Show me a 400eur stick worth it ... i will agree (warthog and x65F "sucks" sorry.. already tested).

Besides..it was not my PLAN to mod the x55..i hoped it was good enough.

[Sokol1]

 

spend another €200 modifying it,

 

Put on other way, what COTS 400$ stick come with aluminum ball bearing gimbals? 

 

- Minus VKB Mamba - not properly available at "west of Crimea".

 

At time, Cougar after market modifications cost this or more.

 

This RC swashplate reminder me this:

 

CNC aluminum ball bearing, with HALL sensor Jeti replacement gimbal for high end R/C transmitter.

 

The advantage is come with spring system - probable not sufficient for the weigh of stick grip...

 

Sokol1

[A_S]

Those RC controllers have better quality than the stock x-55 ! seriously. Btw.. Ball bearings are steel.

 

VKB is available in europe, so is their kit .. one just need "connections"

 

PS: What other stick can write your name in the precission tester I only know one and thats the Roman Baur Mod for Cobra 5 or x52(pro). I wanted to buy his mod, but he is working on a new project atm.

[VO101_MMaister]

If you don` t  mount a new gimbal, but simply remove the original spring/washers setup and replace it with your spring solution, then you get pretty much the same result, minus the costs and the fuss with the aluminium gimbal.
 

Edited April 3, 2014 by VO101_MMaister

[A_S]

Negative. I would not make such a bold statement from a outsider observing standpoint MMaister if i were you, but i see where you are coming  from.

Your signature gives a hint, why you "down talk" other ideas and solutions without even knowing

 

The reason for inaccuracy in the stock built is the fact that the "hat" which carries the magnet (see first pic) is just "pushed" over the shaft leading to the grip, which in return

shows play and a "shaking". In addition with that very precise sensor used one can notice off-center phenomenons in the precission. I noticed this very early, thus my drive to investigate further.

There was no way in the world i could have achieved same precission (see precission test picture above) with the stock built.

 

To make matters worse, one part of the mechanical axis is attached to the "magnet hat", so the idea of fixating the "hat" with glue results in gimbal limitations (gimbal jams). I tried that too.

Their engineering plans reveal themself clearly with the priority in production cost rather than quality and durability. Engineering (and production costs) are no foreign words to me as i have had my personal expirience in that field. This is a money-making TOY at best, but not a sim-prodcut with "soul" and "heart".

 

To be honest with you, a x52pro is way superior to a x-55 stock from many usabiltiy angles.

 

The truth is... after having had the x65F, the Warthog, the Cougar and others tested.. i am truly sick and tired of over-priced "shitty" mainstream joysticks shoved down our throats with good advertisements so we swollow it better. Thanks god not everyone buys "hollywood".

The russian "market" instead shows more dedication into detail and quality (VKB, Roman Buar mods etc), but thats another story. Till today (10 years now in simming) i still have to see ONE good stick

out there trully thoughtfull constructed. There ARE some, but those are custom models without that distribution power of the big brands.

 

Look at MFG Crosswind pedals.. THATS is what i would call smart and GOOD design. (here are some other examples: http://falcon-online.org/forum/index.php?board=55.0 of what some have done in their despair - includig free advertisement (under "custom made sets") on our page for YOUR concept - you are welcome).

 

It sometimes drives me so far, that i think about inventing a totally new joystick concept - FOR REASONABLE PRICE - and yet made with durable materials and purpose-satisfying quality and to put that on kickstarter to get it going. Enough low quality, high price mainstream hollywood fools junk.

Sure, this would be a hobby or passion driven idea only as i do make my income otherwise and im happy with what i do, but maybe it would be worth it.

 

PS: my personal favorite concept is this here (credit Roman Baur)

 

Edited April 3, 2014 by A-S

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 That Roman Baur's modification looks solid. I agree that there has not been any really good joysticks "out of the box" yet. I spent some hefty amount of moolah to upgrade my Cougar. After that it was a good one. Now I have the Warthog and already wish I could modify it a bit. Not only the gimbals, but the buttons and switches too. VKB looks Ok but I dislike the idea of having all those things attached to the base of the stick. I prefer separate throttle and pedals. Those Crosswind pedals are on my list of next to buy CH ProPedals still work, but they are from 1997 and using gameport :D

[VO101_MMaister]

A-S,

 

you are right, I stated something without knowing the full picture, but this issue with the sensor was not posted by you before, so I could not be aware of that.

I quite agree with your opinion about stock, mass produced hardware. They are literally all junk. In the last 16 years I have been tired of them as well. The last commercial stick I bought was the TM cougar. Shiny on the outside, and crappy inside.  It took serious modding to make it usable.
VKB did a great work to move toward quality engineering and materials over bs marketing. I know well Baur`s work as well, and I really admire his innovative skills.

 

There is only one issue with all these fine hardware above (and including mine)

It doesn`t matter how good and precise stick you build, without FFB the experience will never come close to the reality. The sims now came to a level of realism where it would be very important to have some relation between the FM and the center position and load of the controls.  My dream is a full scale, ffb control stick. Hopefully I will have some free time to construct one.

 

S!
MM

Edited April 3, 2014 by VO101_MMaister

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Yeah, that is how I run it Extreme One. Not the best solution at all, but have to live with it until I get new pedals.

[A_S]

@ MMaister.

 

I was never fan of forcefeedback sticks. All they did was vibrating and shaking around delivering a fake immersion of what, "something?", but never came with increasing or decreasing forces related to the current flight- and control regimes, which would give you actually the real feel. Fruthermore, to accomplish that, the sim(s) itself would require a sophisticated FFB interface.

 

Another thing is unversial use. Most simmers (myself inc..) do not limit their flight expirience to ww2 planes only (in this case it was IL-2 for long) but also to jet-sims.

Here it gets tricky as the task is to come up with an universial solution (at best as HOTAS system) satisfying broader needs.

We all can go "nerdy" or totally "geeky" on a very specific built if we like, but there are practical (and maybe economic) compromises to be made at one point.

I have seen your built, its impressive actually. Smart concept. Wonder how that turned out for you. Maybe you can make a video of it?

 

What i define good stick:

 

- no sensors with wear (like contact-resistors)

- true linear precission in sensoric aswell as great resolution and intervall or sampling rate

- NO mechancal "play" or "loss" in accuracy anywhere in the transition from the hand to the sensor

- consistent and reasonable smooth tension or force in the feel (pounds)

- no noticeable or feel-able mechanical center-point ("hickup" through the center) and yet the ability to self-center if hands off

- solid and durabel materials used (including the electronic parts)

- last but not least a good unversial layout concept (ergonimics) of how much and where the hat-sitches, buttons and rotaries are

 

PS: i have to admit though, that the x-55 thruttle is a dream-come-true in its concept. Double thrust (prop-pitch and thruttle), good precise rotaries for trimming or analog flaps.. additional 2 rotaries for other usage.. excellent for ww2 and flying the F-16 in Falcon BMS i.e. But then again.. how they solved the adjustable friction (with GLUE !!) is a joke. I changed that too.

Talking of which..for those who are interested how a F-16 HOTAS layout looks like on the x-55: http://www.pictureshoster.com/files/tdx1rq0hblrgt7ja1nwj.jpg

Edited April 3, 2014 by A-S

[A_S]

Oh btw...

 

We all have seen conventional potis used, micro resistors, magnet sensors.. hall effect sensors.. even a infrared solution in the MS FFB 2, but what about using

really good high dpi optical lasers from a mouse for movement detection in example ?

[Sokol1]

 

 VKB looks Ok but I dislike the idea of having all those things attached to the base of the stick. I prefer separate throttle and pedals.

 

They have version without "things" on base - this is demand from their local market (they demand include "twist rudder"). Is the Mamba Light. The VKB advertisement in his western reseller is poorly done...

 

Sokol1

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Thanks for the info Sokol1 I bet there would be sales for a higher end version without too many switches and twist rudder as well. A solid stick with a durable and smooth gimbal system The switches on the base is not a bad idea at all, but more natural for me to use pedals and throttle. Maybe they should hire you Sokol1 to make the marketing to west better, lot of potential customers

[VO101_MMaister]

@A-S

 

FFB for jet simulators is not good for sure. Jets are usually controlled by Fly by wire, w/o direct load feedback. The sw takes care of you when you are flying on the limits.
I have to admit I am not interessed in these sims. For prop sims with the current and future FMs it is absolutely great to have though. Flying for example DCS P51 without it is really challenging. Even with full length stick it is hard to feel the limits, when you can get feedback only from visuals and sounds. The sim has to have a good FFB interface of course.

I am pretty happy with the controls I built.

They are extremely smooth and accurate, they definitely bring all the requirements you listed. (magRez with 4096 points close to full linear sensoring, no center detent, adjustable linear load, bearing hinged pivots without any play)  Plus, they have hydraulic damping on all axis, which is a must i think. Without damping, every spring only loaded and bearing hinged controls are easy to overcontrol, and they give highly unrealistic sensation. In a real aircraft the controls have a certain mechanical friction in the system, what helps a lot to have controlled stick movements especially at delicate, precise manouvers. This can be simulated by dampers. Plus they eliminate the springy bouncing of the controls what you would never meet in a real aircraft.

Since it is basically a prototype, there is a lot of space for improvements of course.

I would like to add hydraulics to the pedal toe brakes with pressure sensoring.

I would like to build some console for the throttle to replace the carton box:)

The electronics should be tidied up.

Some minor design issues are also existing on both the pedals and the stick. They don`t really influence the usability, so I will address them later, or I will go directly for a new FFB gimbal system:) It is all matter of time. I have a 3 months old kid and way too many hobbies to deal with. So time is a big issue:)

I will try to make some videos, but I am not sure how much one could see on those, controls need to be felt instead of watched to give an impression.
 

S!
MM

Edited April 4, 2014 by VO101_MMaister

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Sziastok MMaister Nice looking pedals

[VO101_MMaister]

S!

 

 Sziastok MMaister Nice looking pedals

 

 

Terve Flanker!    Thank you!

 

and, Hakkaa Päälle!!! of course!:

[A_S]

 

 

Response accuracy test:

 

 

 

X-55: eta 220 eur

MOD: eta 200 eur

[B12]

Brilliant

[HR_GYBARYAN]

that you've added 4 springs more?

[DLCSentinel82]

.... next is new centering ..

 

 

Hello, ive been reading your post about this mod.. and i could really use your help with the centering your using because your mod is the solution to the backlash iam experienceing. did you make the spring attachment to the base your self? Or did you order it somewhere or could you supply me with the necesary stuff?

[361fundahl]

Wow you are very dedicated and awesome! If I was looking for a force feedback flight setup, what would you recommend?

 

Currently flying with a Force-3d from Logitech.... Only joystick around to get me going

[Nirgam]

Hello, ive been reading your post about this mod.. and i could really use your help with the centering your using because your mod is the solution to the backlash iam experienceing. did you make the spring attachment to the base your self? Or did you order it somewhere or could you supply me with the necesary stuff?

I was also interested in this attachment.

[p1ckles]

Sorry to revive such an old thread but I'm looking for mods to improve my Logitech X56 ... are these images available anywhere?

 

 

[Sokol1]

On 3/24/2014 at 11:37 PM, A_S said:

- conventional or original spring and cone soluton will be replaces with 4-spring solution

 

It's probable a mod like these: 

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2993877

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4217593

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Sokol1