Bullet counters

[CrazyDuck]

It appears that the technology was around already in first world war. And yet, in WW2 with incomparably more advanced aircraft we still have to guesstimate the remaining ammo in majority of AC. Why is this so? Am I wrong in thinking that remaining ammocount is a crucial information for the pilot (especially fighter, night figters, CAS,...), even if it is only estimated with something as simple as a stopwatch which runs whenever the gun is firing (which surely doesn't require a rocket science to build)? So why did so few (allied at least) fighters feature ammo counters?

[Sublime]

I think it was just different lines of theory and thought prewar. Like how the US made lots of heavy planes anf strategic planes.  The Soviets made more tactical/operational planes. The Luftwaffe was an operational force.  So different ideas were pursued in different places.

After the war with Germany's defeat you see the Allies adopt many German inventions or ideas.

Thats the only thing I can think of.  Like mentioned in other threads the problem was realized at the time - pilots had the last 50 rounds or so all tracers so itd shoot a stream of them to let you know you were almost out of ammo.

I was impressed to note that the FWs gun pods in the wing have numeric counters - probably they were invented a few years later after the "bar" counters we see in 109s and 190s on the top.

But yes theyre very useful for sure.

Id add pilots trained and trained and trained usually and knew exactly how many seconds of fire they had.  They generally tried to keep track. Naturally this wasnt a science..

[-SF-Disarray]

The tracer thing was one way they tracked ammo, I know guys that still use the same basic method in modern combat; even for 30 round box mag fed rifles. One thing that can be done on fighters that have no counters is figure out how much time on trigger you have and try to keep track. It is a simple calculation and all the info is available in game, mag size vs. rounds per minute. It isn't an exact count but it will give you a general feel for when it is getting close to time to go home. On some planes, like the Yak 7 or P40, one or more guns will run out of ammo before the others. In the Yak 7 I think it is the right hand MG and the MGs on the P40 will run dry from the outside in.

 

I don't know that the bar counters on the German fighters are older than the numeric counters. It is probably a space or ease of use issue. Mechanically the bar and the number are basically the same. I would think the bar is the better option in a combat setting though. The exact number of rounds isn't really all that important when it comes to MG's and a bar is much easier to asses than a number.

[Asgar]

9 hours ago, Sublime said:

I think it was just different lines of theory and thought prewar. Like how the US made lots of heavy planes anf strategic planes.  The Soviets made more tactical/operational planes. The Luftwaffe was an operational force.  So different ideas were pursued in different places.

After the war with Germany's defeat you see the Allies adopt many German inventions or ideas.

Thats the only thing I can think of.  Like mentioned in other threads the problem was realized at the time - pilots had the last 50 rounds or so all tracers so itd shoot a stream of them to let you know you were almost out of ammo.

I was impressed to note that the FWs gun pods in the wing have numeric counters - probably they were invented a few years later after the "bar" counters we see in 109s and 190s on the top.

But yes theyre very useful for sure.

Id add pilots trained and trained and trained usually and knew exactly how many seconds of fire they had.  They generally tried to keep track. Naturally this wasnt a science..

Nah, they’re actually older. The MG FF and FF/M in earlier planes use the numeric counters. The 109 E-7 for example uses it. Probably cause they’re limited to a single  drum mag of 60 rounds not like the later MG 151/15 and 20 that had 200 rnd. belts

Edited April 10, 2019 by Asgar

[Sublime]

Hmm very interesting thank you.

It seemed that much more accurate which is why I assumed - always a fatal risk in history

[Soilworker]

Also the RoF crowd will inform you that they had numerical counters in WWI. ?

[bzc3lk]

15 minutes ago, Soilworker said:

Also the RoF crowd will inform you that they had numerical counters in WWI. ?

 

 

[JtD]

Ammo counters weren't considered crucial by most combat aviation folks back then. There's a lot of information that's more important to the pilot and needs to be displayed in the tiny cockpit, all things related to controlling and navigating you aircraft, managing the engine and safely taking off and landing. As long as fuel gauge or landing gear indicators, or in extreme cases engine information cannot be displayed inside the cockpit in a decent spot, ammo counters have no right to be here.

 

While in game I appreciate the fancy German ammo counter, in real life I'd rather have more important flying instruments in these prime spots in the cockpit. It's not that the remaining amount of ammo would frequently have an impact on my decisions during flight. You don't usually get the endless dogfighting you see from servers, with a dozen kills a flight until you run out of ammo. Typically you'd have a fight, with a couple of firing opportunities and go home (or not).

 

Also, as has been mentioned, there are several other ways to indicate shortage of ammo - like different use of tracers depending on the number of rounds left or a different number of shots for different guns so that they run out one after the other. Ammo counters also increase weight and complexity of the aircraft, and it remains open if they are cost effective in the end.

 

One Allied pilot, might have been Eric Brown, commented on the German ammo counters something along the lines "clearly, there must have been an very influential ordnance officer within the German ministry to force ammo counters into cockpit spots that should have been reserved for important flight instruments". When I read that like 20 years ago, I didn't agree. Having gathered a lot more experience since then, I now do.

[Panzerlang]

1 hour ago, JtD said:

One Allied pilot, might have been Eric Brown, commented on the German ammo counters something along the lines "clearly, there must have been an very influential ordnance officer within the German ministry to force ammo counters into cockpit spots that should have been reserved for important flight instruments". When I read that like 20 years ago, I didn't agree. Having gathered a lot more experience since then, I now do.

Which important instruments? I haven't felt any lack of instrumentation and have always welcomed the ammo counters (very useful to me).

[Diggun]

2 minutes ago, Uffz-Prien said:

I haven't felt any lack of instrumentation

But our needs / wants cannot reflect reality. This chap makes some interesting points (not all of which I agree with) in his 19 / spitfire cockpit reviews, weirdly one of the things that impresses him most about the 109 is the ability to easily and quickly cage your artificial horizon. Not something which the average sim pilot would care about or thing important....

 

 

 

 

[JtD]

2 hours ago, Uffz-Prien said:

Which important instruments? I haven't felt any lack of instrumentation and have always welcomed the ammo counters (very useful to me).

 

I agree as far as the game is concerned, but in real life I'd consider even something like an oxygen level or carbon monoxide indicator more useful than an ammo counter in that spot. Never needed it sitting at my desk, though. :)

[Sublime]

Interesting.. Why was caging the A. Horizon important?

[Diggun]

8 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Why was caging the A. Horizon important?

If you didn't cage it & pulled violent manoeuvres, it was likely to tumble or lock up. Not good if you're not flying in perfect VFR conditions. 

 

Same reason why the Spit (in game) cages the compass. Though RAF compasses were such a running joke I wonder why they bother...

[Sublime]

The magnetic compass? I noticed that!! Thats whats going on?

Also interesting how the horizon seems.to "fall" into place slowly in the P40 as you start it up.

[-SF-Disarray]

It has to do with the gyros they used back then. They were somewhat more fragile than the modern types so maneuvering with an uncaged would throw it all out of whack and could cause it to stop working altogether. I'm not sure why the compass should foul, unless it was just poorly seated on it's spindle.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

People need to make sure they are correctly talking about the magnetic compass or the heading indicator.

 

The heading indicator is controlled by a gyro that is aligned with the magnetic compass by the pilot.  The heading indicator will drift.

[Sublime]

Ok so using the P40 the magnetic compass is the top left, lines with balls on the top and the numbers. Seems better for navigation doesnt update quickly or well for dogfights.

And the heading indicator Im assuming is the classic looking compass in the center lower that spins and gives you.. Your compass heading?

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, Sublime said:

Ok so using the P40 the magnetic compass is the top left, lines with balls on the top and the numbers. Seems better for navigation doesnt update quickly or well for dogfights.

And the heading indicator Im assuming is the classic looking compass in the center lower that spins and gives you.. Your compass heading?

 

Heading indicator is upper-left, magnetic compass in the center. 

 

Heading indicators are desirable to have in a plane, because they are more stable than a magnetic compass. However, they have to be periodically adjusted due to errors that gradually accumulate inside the device (the Wikipedia article explains it pretty well).

[Sublime]

16 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Heading indicator is upper-left, magnetic compass in the center. 

 

Heading indicators are desirable to have in a plane, because they are more stable than a magnetic compass. However, they have to be periodically adjusted due to errors that gradually accumulate inside the device (the Wikipedia article explains it pretty well).

Ty

[CrazyDuck]

On 4/10/2019 at 3:04 PM, JtD said:

 

I agree as far as the game is concerned, but in real life I'd consider even something like an oxygen level or carbon monoxide indicator more useful than an ammo counter in that spot. Never needed it sitting at my desk, though.

 

Well, I tend to agree, but not all of cockpit surface is covered in dials. Put it where the P-51 fuel gauge sits if you will, I don't care if it doesn't occupy a premium spot in my cockpit. You can even put it out on a wing, like Yak fuel gauges.  

 

Point being - While German aircraft designers actually did consider ammocount significant enough to "sacrifice" one of the hot spots in the cockpit, Allied air forces didn't consider ammo counters useful, and I really wonder why not. Heck even Mc.202 has quite fancy digital counters, even for the light MGs in the wings!

Edited April 12, 2019 by CrazyDuck

[Finkeren]

Honestly I think, that the prevalence of ammo counters says a lot about the pilosophy of warfare in general. 

 

Since the times of Prussia's rise to great power status, the founding principle of German military doctrine had been to seek out the enemy forces and destroy them on the battlefield.

 

Prussian/German military was acostumed to fighting numerically superior enemies in wars that were "Kurtz und Vives" (Short and Lively). Seeking the quick destruction of enemy forces above all else to avoid attritional warfare, which they wouldn't have a chance to win. (Hence why the German high command sucked so bad on the strategic level in both World Wars) 

 

This doctrine highly influenced the Luftwaffe in WW2 as well. The LW was by and large a tactical air force focused on the destruction of enemy strong points and an unusually strong focus on production and development of fighter aircraft. The LW fighter doctrine was unique in emphasizing the destruction of enemy aircraft as its primary focus. German fighter pilots were taught to be aggressive, seek out the enemy and destroy him. That combined with a target-rich environment is part of the reason why German aces reached such high scores - and also part of the reason why the Luftwaffe failed so spectacularly on the operational and strategic level. 

 

Anyway: If you as a fighter pilot are trained to be aggressive, to pursue the destruction of enemy aircraft at all costs and usually fight outnumbered in a target-rich environment, then ammo counters suddenly become much more important to you. 

Edited April 13, 2019 by Finkeren