Forum rule no. 7 vs a particular Yak-1b skin

[Mmaruda]

Can someone explain to me please how is something like the Yak1b_skin_03.jpg in the new announcement OK? You expect players from Poland to be all happy about it? This is after all a historical game and some topics in history are controversial and as far as I understand that is what the forum rule 7 is for. To avoid political discussion and some topics that might be offensive to some people. This skin is basically the exact opposite of avoiding such topics. To put it mildly...

[A_radek]

Please explain to those of us (me) that don't get it?

[150GCT_Veltro]

Польша = Poland

 

The skin shows a sort of wellcome to the Russian army on the Poland's border, from a Polish woman.

Edited November 4, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[unreasonable]

I think it is the picture of the Soviet soldier "liberating" Poland, when in fact they had invaded in cahoots with their Nazi allies in 1939, and then left the Polish resistance to be massacred by the SS when they halted outside Warsaw in 1944.

 

This is the trouble with political censorship in history - once you start, where do you draw the line?

[A_radek]

Thanks Veltro. I'm originally Polish but not even slightly insulted by this. From what I've understood Russians were quite hated in Poland during this time and long after. That "welcome" was most likely wishful thinking by some artistic pilot/groundcrew. 

[Bullets]

[Cybermat47]

Oh damn... much like the "For Stalin!" and "For the Bolshevik Party!" skins, I think I'll find an alternative to this one!

[[DBS]El_Marta]

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

 

 

Yak1b_skin_03.jpg shows a plane with a skin which shows the allegory of Polonia welcoming a russian soldier with a sword with flowers. The contemporary propagandistic message of this scene is to depict the poles as being gratefully and willingly accepting the russian invasion as liberation. I guess this is a late war skin of 1944 when the russians where coming back (after they already had invaded in 1939 together with germany) to kick out the germans and make Poland a soviet satellite.

 

This skin certainly is based on a historic skin and is just a depiction of a historic fact. It is no forum post. If you feel like you need a PC Safe Space here, you better stay away from combat flight sims based on WWII settings. Because this war was all about breaking forum rule no. 7..

Edited November 4, 2016 by [DBS]El_Marta

[Finkeren]

Let's be real: The only reason we don't have swastikas on the axis' planes is to avoid conflict with certain countries' laws against displaying nazi symbols.

 

Historical skins are precluded from any PC consideration IMHO.

[Cybermat47]

Let's be real: The only reason we don't have swastikas on the axis' planes is to avoid conflict with certain countries' laws against displaying nazi symbols.

Historical skins are precluded from any PC consideration IMHO.

I feel the same way. While, as I said above, there are some skins I won't use due to my personal feelings and beliefs, I don't mind having them in the game. After all, they existed in real life, and this game is trying to be realistic.

 

@Mmaruda, forum rule 7 seems to apply to the forum rather than the game. Look at it this way - you get to shoot down the plane

[150GCT_Veltro]

Commonsense for a business company USA-RUSSIA like this one, would suggest to remove this skin from the Yak-1b official release, and not for historicall reason. It's a nice skin, is an historicall one but is not a good "Marketing"  idea today.......offensive or not for some customers.

[[DBS]El_Marta]

Some countries lock people up for telling facts, others for telling lies. C'est la vie , c'est la guerre .

Edited November 4, 2016 by [DBS]El_Marta

[Mmaruda]

Let's be real: The only reason we don't have swastikas on the axis' planes is to avoid conflict with certain countries' laws against displaying nazi symbols.

 

Historical skins are precluded from any PC consideration IMHO.

 

It's the same with propagating communism in some countries (like Poland).

 

Lol, how could anyone get triggered by that particular skin. Or a swastika. That reminds me of an incident that happened in Germany. An 80 something year old grandma publicly denied that holocaust never happened. And she got locked up for that lol. Way to go Germany, you somehow managed to become worse than an actual holocaust denier. Their goverment doesnt seem to realize that by having these ridiculous authoritarian laws in place trying to protect people from getting triggered, they are actually more in line with Nazi Germany.

 

Exactly, it becomes a slippery slope. 

 

You are wrong on so many levels here. Frankly speaking it boggles the mind that someone would not understand why such laws are in place (and not only in Germany) and why they are enforced. However, if you feel like arguing further, feel free to contact the German government and let them know how bad they are.

 

People become triggered by various things. WWII is a delicate and complicated topic. This is not a question of being politically correct, but rather keeping you business as much outside of certain political issues as possible. You know, like in order to make money.

[Finkeren]

Commonsense for a business company USA-RUSSIA like this one, would suggest to remove this skin from the Yak-1b official release, and not for historicall reason. It's a nice skin, is an historicall one but is not a good "Marketing" idea today.......offensive or not for some customers.

I might agree, if we were talking about a plane adorned with a giant portrait of Stalin or something. But honestly, how many ppl outside Poland is even going to notice?

[150GCT_Veltro]

Stalin would not be a problem at all. I'm not talking about offense or other historical memory like the svastika.

 

I'm talking about contemporary politics.

 

If i would Jason, i would ask to remove this skin today.

Edited November 4, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[unreasonable]

Look at it this way - you get to shoot down the plane

 

An excellent way to look at it.

 

 

 

People become triggered by various things. WWII is a delicate and complicated topic. This is not a question of being politically correct, but rather keeping you business as much outside of certain political issues as possible. You know, like in order to make money.

 

If the developers are simply trying to stay within the law in certain jurisdictions, this is understandable. But going beyond this because WWII is "delicate" would be absurd.

 

As for being "triggered" - why should I give a hoot about someone being "triggered"? If you do not like it, either do not play the game, do not use the skin, or as Cybermat puts it, go out of your way to kill anyone using it.

But please do not tell the rest of us what we should or should not be able to use: that really is the definition of political correctness.

Edited November 4, 2016 by unreasonable

[Sunde]

Come on! The war is over, accept these skins as what they are, paintjobs on planes in a computergame. If this is enough to get you fired up you seriously should think about getting a new hobby.    

[[DBS]El_Marta]

I am strongly pro for including such skins. It shows how propaganda was used and we might learn something about today's use of it.

 

As soon as we get into contact with other people we are doing "politics", it is about how we do it and sometimes we have to agree to disagree, but we should always stay respectful and if posssible friendly,

Edited November 4, 2016 by [DBS]El_Marta

[Finkeren]

Stalin would not be a problem at all. I'm not talking about offense or other historical memory like the svastika.

 

I'm talking about contemporary politics.

 

If i would Jason, i would ask to remove this skin today.

I don't see how this has anything to do with contemporary politics.

 

It's not like it says "Vote Trump" or anything.

 

So there's still some bad blood between Poland and Russia? So what? This is a cute little piece of propaganda from a state that doesn't even exist anymore. It has no bearing on conflicts that occur now, unless you're deliberately trying to get offended.

 

(By "you" I don't mean you personally but ppl in general)

[216th_Jordan]

and then left the Polish resistance to be massacred by the SS when they halted outside Warsaw in 1944.

 

 

That however is one of the most repeated false statements regarding WWII. The soviet offensive stopped because it was exhausted and tank advance groups needed to be regrouped and stocked up after severe losses.

 

But I see that you just took this as an example, so no need to discuss about that here, just wanted to point it out.

Edited November 4, 2016 by 216th_Jordan

[150GCT_Veltro]

Come on! The war is over, accept these skins as what they are, paintjobs on planes in a computergame. If this is enough to get you fired up you seriously should think about getting a new hobby.    

 

O.T.:

In Italy somebody has proposed a Law to considere as Fascist Propaganda, everithing that shows images of Mussolini or of the simbology related to that ideology, and they are absolutely serious. We are waiting to see if it will be accepted or not from the Parliament. In this case, all the our forums with Fascist historicall pics about ANR Macchi 205 for ex., could be considered as Fascist Propaganda.

So, this problem does exist..... This just to answer, giving you a concrete example.

http://www.camera.it/_dati/leg17/lavori/stampati/pdf/17PDL0034860.pdf

Edited November 4, 2016 by 150GCT_Veltro

[Zygiert]

I'm from Poland. And yes it feels offensive... but who cares? I don't give a f*** about your feelings, and you shouldn't give about mine. I'm against political correctness in every way. Same with political censorship (swastikas, hammer & sickle). So as long as it is a historical paintjob, I'm fine with it.

 

What is more, any person familiar with history will also know that it's just propaganda, and if the skins would depic the reality it should be more like: girl lying on the floor with clothes torn off, soviet soldat pants halfway down, gun in one hand still smoking after putting a bullet to back of the head of polish civil dude lying next to the girl. War is hell.

 

So I don't think we should get triggered by it.

[Mmaruda]

I'm from Poland. And yes it feels offensive... but who cares? I don't give a f*** about your feelings, and you shouldn't give about mine. I'm against political correctness in every way. Same with political censorship (swastikas, hammer & sickle). So as long as it is a historical paintjob, I'm fine with it.

 

What is more, any person familiar with history will also know that it's just propaganda, and if the skins would depic the reality it should be more like: girl lying on the floor with clothes torn off, soviet soldat pants halfway down, gun in one hand still smoking after putting a bullet to back of the head of polish civil dude lying next to the girl. War is hell.

 

So I don't think we should get triggered by it.

 

 

I so much regret starting this topic right now.

[Jade_Monkey]

It all depends on whats the devs goal. Is it to be as PC as possible? Is it to be historically accurate?

 

Im assuming this was a real WWII paintjob. I dont necessarily sympathise with the message but i do appreciate a skin that has more than a red star and green background. VVS skins tend to be more vanilla than LW, so this is a welcome change for me.

[150GCT_Veltro]

I don't see how this has anything to do with contemporary politics.

 

It's not like it says "Vote Trump" or anything.

 

So there's still some bad blood between Poland and Russia? So what? This is a cute little piece of propaganda from a state that doesn't even exist anymore. It has no bearing on conflicts that occur now, unless you're deliberately trying to get offended.

 

(By "you" I don't mean you personally but ppl in general)

 

Remove "still" and you'll get the point.

 

If a member of this forum has noted the skin as offensive........this does suggest you to be more prudent.

 

I know what i'm talking about, but this is not the place (is the last one) to talk about these geopolitcal and geostrategical problems.

[[DBS]El_Marta]

Actually it is considered to be slander and libel in regards to the victims.

 

This elder lady did this repeatedly and and was part of a right wing group. German law here just reflects the need to shut some mad folks up early before you end up with a pile of dead and ruins.

 

Freedom of speech != freedon from thought.

[Zygiert]

 

 

I so much regret starting this topic right now.

 

Don't mind me saying that. I also realise that most victims of stalinism were... Russians.

Like I said, war is hell. It' just a skin. Let's move on.

 

edit: I also don't feel like there is still a bad blood between us and Russians from my POV.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Cethanu

[Neil]

Can someone explain to me please how is something like the combat German planes in this game OK? You expect players from invaded countries to be all happy about it?

Can someone explain to me please how is something like the combat Russian planes in this game OK? You expect players from Germany to be all happy about it?

Can someone explain to me please how is something like the future combat Japanese planes in this game OK? You expect players from Pearl Harbor and China to be all happy about it?

Can someone explain to me please how is something like the future combat US planes  this game OK? You expect players from Japan to be all happy about it?

Can someone explain to me please how is something like war in this game OK? You expect victims of war to be all happy about it?

Edited November 4, 2016 by Nil

[[DBS]El_Marta]

 

girl lying on the floor with clothes torn off, soviet soldat pants halfway down, gun in one hand still smoking after putting a bullet to back of the head of polish civil dude lying next to the girl.

 

Well, sadly that is just what hordes of young men are often inclined to do in times of loose morals and existential threats like war.

[Mmaruda]

Don't mind me saying that. I also realise that most victims of stalinism were... Russians.

Like I said, war is hell. It' just a skin. Let's move on.

 

edit: I also don't feel like there is still a bad blood between us and Russians from my POV.

 

I feel like it's the exact opposite.

[Finkeren]

Remove "still" and you'll get the point.

 

If a member of this forum has noted the skin as offensive........this does suggest you to be more prudent.

 

I know what i'm talking about, but this is not the place (is the last one) to talk about these geopolitcal and geostrategical problems.

I'm not saying we can't have a talk about possibly offensive skins, though personally I'll always be on the side of not censoring history, except where directly forced to by law.

 

What I fail to understand is how anyone can see this as relevant to contemporary politics. Russia is not about to invade Poland (no, it really, really isn't) and the borders of Poland have been fairly well established for the last 70 years.

 

Sure this propaganda less-than-half-truth might be offensive to some, and with good reason, but it's about history.

 

If they made a skin with a text saying "Long live the Ukranian SSR - Forever part of the Socialist Union", yeah I see how that might be relevant to modern geopolitics.

[Mmaruda]

I'm not saying we can't have a talk about possibly offensive skins, though personally I'll always be on the side of not censoring history, except where directly forced to by law.

 

What I fail to understand is how anyone can see this as relevant to contemporary politics. Russia is not about to invade Poland (no, it really, really isn't) and the borders of Poland have been fairly well established for the last 70 years.

 

Sure this propaganda less-than-half-truth might be offensive to some, and with good reason, but it's about history.

 

If they made a skin with a text saying "Long live the Ukranian SSR - Forever part of the Socialist Union", yeah I see how that might be relevant to modern geopolitics.

 

Considering what has been going on in Polish politics, trust me, there are people that will consider this skin very relevant to modern geopolitics. Also, there is another skin in the announcement with a sign saying "Libarated Donbass". It's not really about depicting historical skins, but rather about the choice of those.

[Zygiert]

I feel like it's the exact opposite.

Well, then you're wrong. I may be against an ideology/system but never against a nation by itself, especially if it was also a victim of said ideology.

Nowadays you would actually consider me a pro-russian (within our own country) & very doubtful about our actual allies. But let's just not go into this kind of discussion

[Mmaruda]

Well, then you're wrong. I may be against an ideology/system but never against a nation by itself, especially if it was also a victim of said ideology.

Nowadays you would actually consider me a pro-russian (within our own country) & very doubtful about our actual allies. But let's just not go into this kind of discussion

 

I did not mean you or me, just what some people say and that I hear on a more regular basis. I have a friend who is Russian and another one who is Ukrainian - there is no conflict here, but there is a lot of people who have never even seen a Russian in their entire life, but apparently have some sort of problem there and they seem to be more and more vocal.

[TWC_Ace]

Ironically, my family (grandfathers) suffered heavily from both regimes, communists and nazis. The swastika isnt there because of the law in some of the countries. The red star is there...and this "polish issue" sign. However, both stars and that sign could be offensive for some as so many ppl were brutalled to death under red star and some other "allowables"...russians first. So What devs did. They didnt include swastika becasue of the laws in some of the countries. They would (I hope) do the same for red star if that is the case. But it isnt. Its as it is. A history buff in me would like to see all signs there (even tohugh my familly suffered alot) since Im able to distinct an historical sim from politics etc....But not all are ready for that...

The bottom line, I would remove skins in question (official) completely if that is what upsets my sim friends. That is my personal opinion.

Edited November 4, 2016 by blackram

[Danziger]

Hmm, really, and no assistance could be made? If the Poles could fight with scraped together weapons and supplies I would have thought any assistance no matter how small would have been beneficial. The uprising is next on my reading list so I wonder if I will have a better understanding after.

 

Apologies if this is against forum rules in discussing but I currently disagree that there were entirely reasonable reasons for the lack of assistance at Warsaw and until I read evidence I can't accept a forum post as a reason to simply think different.

 

On the OP, yes it is distasteful to me, but so much of the war was. It is naive to believe that an Allied nation is all 'pure and goodness ' against the evil Axis forces, and the propoganda from any side is legitimate when displayed for historical accuracy in my opinion. In fact it should be there as a reminder. However the issue here is that if you're not aware of the detail of Poland/USSR relations and conflict, the skin could be taken as the original propaganda was intended to be.

 

My solution (edit: to that aspect),... read as much history for yourself and then form your own understanding and opinions.

Poland was invaded by the Soviet Union in 1920 in an attempt to make Poland a communist satellite. They were stopped and turned back at the Battle of Warsaw (there is actually a recent movie about it Bitwa Warszawska 1920). It's not surprising they didn't care to help. They also took a few thousand Polish army officers prisoner in 1939 and executed them all in 1940. They didn't want anyone who could undermine the eventual takeover by the Soviets. 

 

My wife is Polish from Gdansk/Danzig where the war officially started September 1, 1939. Her grandfather was in the Polish army during WW2 and her parents lived most of their lives under communism. Her father was working in the shipyards during the Solidarity movement and Czarny Cwartek or "Black Thursday" when the protesters were shot down not by the Soviets but their own Polish militia. 

 

I fly this sim among others and make historical skins with slogans like "For Stalin" and "For the Bolshevik Party" and they honestly don't care. It is a computer game not real life. Get over yourselves. My wife deals with much more offensive things from people and media here in America than she ever has in Europe.

 

Edit: Also, regarding my Polish family and their views. They have been in wars for centuries caught between east and west. There were times when Poland as a nation didn't exist at all. They occupy a middle ground between people who liked to fight a lot so most of the time the fighting took place there. They have been carved up and divided between other nations. They have been betrayed by allies (read up on the Poles fighting with the Allies from Britain and how after the war they were sent back to Poland to be murdered by new Soviet regime). For years they have been promised that Poles will no longer need to get a visa to visit America in exchange for them sending soldiers to help out in the recent war in the Middle East. Needless to say, it has yet to happen. My family still have to get visa to come here. 

 

I also learned that Americans know nothing of communism apart from western propaganda of the Cold War era. From what my in-laws say, they didn't mind living in communism they just did not want to be ruled by Russians. The Germans they hated but the Russians they feared. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by BorysVorobyov

[Zygiert]

I did not mean you or me, just what some people say and that I hear on a more regular basis. I have a friend who is Russian and another one who is Ukrainian - there is no conflict here, but there is a lot of people who have never even seen a Russian in their entire life, but apparently have some sort of problem there and they seem to be more and more vocal.

 

Ooooh, now I know what you mean. You're talking about our newly elected stupid government, which is even worse than previous one.

Oh yes, in that case: Devs, just be warned - with this much of stupidity within our government, it could be considered a threat. Hell, I would imagine that it could even be in daily news on national TV to back up some anti-russian propaganda.

[Aap]

 

 

That however is one of the most repeated false statements regarding WWII. The soviet offensive stopped because it was exhausted and tank advance groups needed to be regrouped and stocked up after severe losses.

 

 

C'mon, seriously? They became so exhausted 25 km from Warsaw that they did not even attempt anything to help the rebels, did not even provide artillery support and officially declined US request to airdrop arms to Polish rebels? 

[Mmaruda]

Ooooh, now I know what you mean. You're talking about our newly elected stupid government, which is even worse than previous one.

Oh yes, in that case: Devs, just be warned - with this much of stupidity within our government, it could be considered a threat. Hell, I would imagine that it could even be in daily news on national TV to back up some anti-russian propaganda.

 

 

The kind of mess it would start if it hit the Polish media... I cannot even imagine. The journalist will grab on to anything. Codename Panzers was nearly banned for the first mission, then was the Death to Spies thing where they concluded that you play as agent of the KNVD. I just hope this does not get out there.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I dont exactly know what is the point of this anymore ? History ? Pride ? Now I see discussions whether Soviets stopped intentionally or were exhausted. What's the point of all this ?