Paratroopers

[InProgress]

When i saw Ju 52/Зm i got idea that would be so awesome if singleplayer missions/campaign had some transport mission where you fly somewhere to drop Paratroopers. Maybe even bigger invasions

 

After pacific dlc, some normandy?

Edited September 15, 2016 by -FAF-InProgress

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

They said they want to add paratroopers so we might get it along with Kuban. The problem is that we dont have any infantry on the ground atm so as soon we land the paratroopers what will they do? Basically they need to add some sort of infantry usage on the ground or it could be some basic like drop some paratroopers close to a bridge and that bridge will get static MG, AA and light AT units close to the bridgeheads. This way you get control over the bridge from some enemy units. Maybe even be able to take control over towns and airfields using the same thing as above.

To capture an airfield the ground attackers need to clear it from tanks, AA(vital to even get Ju-52s close to the airfield), AT units etc... Then drop paratroopers with 4-6 Ju-52s and the airfield is captured and can be used by the friendly team.

 

It would be nice to be able to get use of an airfield somewhere on the map that is not active in the beginning. Fly and land 10(?) Ju-52s and that airfield will be usable and have a limited amount of planes and then the enemy team needs to destroy the newly "created" airfield.

[Sokol1]

In Warbirds Online Ju-52 paratroopers goes "Lemmings" style for control tower and blow then (and themselves) for field capture. 

 

So defenders need strafe then (without collide with Mother Earth). Very fun.

 

But, hey. The "Chivalry League" (no parachute kill, no Ju-52 Red Cross shoot...)   will approve this? 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Sokol1

[InProgress]

@UP

I think your link is broken.

I would not shoot ju52 red corss because i only fly germans But even if i don't think it would be easy see that it's actually red corss. Maybe if it would not have any gunners then it would be easier to see it's just unarmed med plane. And shooting parachute is actually legal, if it those are soldiers like in market garden.

 

I think i saw video where some russian guy was running after bomb destroyed some cars, kind of infantry thing but that idea with capturing things with paratroopers and building defences is really nice, i hope we will see that in game.

[Feathered_IV]

So... you fly somewhere and push the 'drop paratroopers' button.  Then a message maybe appears saying, 'paratroopers dropped'.  And then you fly home?

I don't think pooping troops would be anywhere near as thrilling as you think it would be.

[LLv34_Untamo]

S!

 

It would be great for our server("VirtualPilots - Moscow Warbirds") though. Currently we capture airfields by landing(and finishin flight) with He-111, which is not nice :-/ ... Great anticipation for the Ju-52, and paratroopers. Hope it will come with russian skin also! ... That or surprise with flyable Li-2

[InProgress]

Who said nobody would shoot at you while flying? There is gunner so you could also shoot something, you could also fly as escort and just watching dozens or more patartoopers in sky would be good enough. Also tank gameplay is not thrilling either (most of the time you just drive forward) but some people (me) like it.

 

Yeaa.. i dont like this land to capture thing, it's nice to use tanks to capture things and paratroopers would be even better.

 

Don't tell me you would not want to see this

Edited September 16, 2016 by InProgress

[Enfield]

So... you fly somewhere and push the 'drop paratroopers' button.  Then a message maybe appears saying, 'paratroopers dropped'.  And then you fly home?

I don't think pooping troops would be anywhere near as thrilling as you think it would be.

 

There are quite a few people who enjoy logistical roles such as this, for some just flying is fun enough (See: the popularity of commercial sims)

It's not my cup of tea but why not enable people to have their niche fun?

[SharpeXB]

As far as I know, paratroopers were not used in any of the battles featured in IL-2. Current or upcoming. They would be a cool fantasy battle feature but since infantry isn't really modeled or has much of a role in the game, not sure what the purpose in dropping them would be.

Maybe with DX11 there can be infantry. Who knows?

Edited September 17, 2016 by SharpeXB

[InProgress]

Well, there are men models, pilots, soldiers. For example AA guns crew etc. So I guess something is already made.

 

Point? Like someone said, capture airfields, towns or bridges. For example in multiplayer if enemy destroy some units in town you could drop paratroopers and reinforce them.

[Lusekofte]

Well Crete come to mind, but then we must rewind time and use mainly Luftwaffe planes 

[7.GShAP/Silas]

There are quite a few people who enjoy logistical roles such as this, for some just flying is fun enough (See: the popularity of commercial sims)

It's not my cup of tea but why not enable people to have their niche fun?

 

 

That's not the point. The point is that the gameplay built around the role should be high-quality and engaging.

[Bearfoot]

So... you fly somewhere and push the 'drop paratroopers' button.  Then a message maybe appears saying, 'paratroopers dropped'.  And then you fly home?

I don't think pooping troops would be anywhere near as thrilling as you think it would be.

 

And I don't think that what you think is correct.

 

From experiences.

 

My "other" primary sim is DCS Huey.

 

Sure it has a gunship configuration. But I hardly touch that.

 

Troop transport, air assault, medivacs, equipment transport. I am not exaggerating: it's more fun, immersive, and, yes, thrilling than any other flying I've done.

 

Oh, I know you will be skeptical.

 

I was.

 

When I got the module I thought that once I've learned to fly it all I'm going to do is gunship stuff. I mean, otherwise I'm just going from point A to B and back. And without even decent troop animation, all I get is a text message saying "## troops loaded. ## troops unloaded etc.".

 

But after that first mission, delivering troops under fire, then going back for reinforcements, then tasked with casevac. 

 

Wow. Wow. Wow. I was totally hooked. Cannot even remember what I initially mapped to my master arm, gun/rocket selectors on my HOTAS. Been so long. Don't know and don't care. Slicks all the way, man. 

So, yes: I don't just think troop transport will be thrilling. I know. And I know I am not alone: plenty of people have gone through the same "what, medivac? meh ..." to "Dustoff 72 ready for rock n' roll!" transition as me. 

[TheElf]

The other issue is that any implementation of Paratroopers would require AI scripts.  AI has historically been a bottle-neck in performance for this title, so unless they do something to reduce the load of AI paratroopers will remain problematic.  Personally, after an abortive attempt to build a realistic ground order of battle around Stalingrad last year, and giving up when the performance hits made it impossible, I would hope for something that allows for more ground unit AI and activity before paratroopers.

[Strombrand]

...as a retired war-planned I just want to interject one little fact that the players and developers need to consider. I know that the situation might alter the flight plan, but paratroopers in WW2 were dropped from 160 meters (500 feet) at an airspeed of NGT 175 KPH (110 MPH)(slower than most A/Cs stall speed). That's why air supremacy has to be achieved prior to the drop - the other alternative being a night drop. The limiting factor is the human being, suddenly being hit with a nearly 200 KPH gust (which, on the ground would be sufficient strong enough to blow down most trees).

 

Food for thought.

[InProgress]

I./JG1_Baron, on 25 Aug 2016 - 23:02, said:

I have a few questions for JU-52: 

 

1. it will be in this plane lower gunner turret too? 

2. it will be possible to land troops at the airport - meant graphically depicted the procession of soldiers

3. it will be possible use this plane as a bomber?

4. it will be possible attack ships with torpedo launched from Ju-52?

 

Thanks for your reply.

1 - our Ju52 have only top gun

2 - paratroppers are supposed to be

3 - our modification is not carrying bombs

4 - same here.

 

Missions for Ju52 are supposed to be:

- Cargo delivery on airfield

- Cargo drop with parachute containers

- Paratroopers drop

 

Dev's answer

[Gambit21]

As far as I know, paratroopers were not used in any of the battles featured in IL-2. Current or upcoming. They would be a cool fantasy battle feature but since infantry isn't really modeled or has much of a role in the game, not sure what the purpose in dropping them would be.

Maybe with DX11 there can be infantry. Who knows?

 

Well...I'm planning a Ju52 mission where a few operators are dropped behind enemy lines at night to sabotage a bridge or something of the sort.

(then a hairy extraction later)

So we can be a bit creative and not be limited by what we know for sure. This kind of thing might very well have happened and we didn't hear about it, or

it didn't and who cares. The point is, there's room to be creative.

So it would be nice to actually drop them.

 

As it stands, I'll likely have to employ a check zone and subtitle indicated "Commandos Away!" or similar so that the player knows they've completed that objective.

[SharpeXB]

Oh sure. Paratroopers are a completely awesome feature in even just used in fantasy scenarios.

 

What would be great to see is if they're doing paratroopers, to do them right.

 

- You as the pilot should be able to signal to the troops to get ready and hook up. With all the corresponding commands heard in German

"Stehen an der Tür!"

 

- As the pilot when you look back you can see them all as animated crew and watch them stand hook up and jump.

 

- The Fallschirmjäger had this particular door exit leaping head first, not like troops do today.

 

- A correct parachute landing fall and roll on the ground.

 

- They jumped without weapons and had them in separate containers (not reallly a great idea)

[Finkeren]

In Warbirds Online Ju-52 paratroopers goes "Lemmings" style for control tower and blow then (and themselves) for field capture. 

 

So defenders need strafe then (without collide with Mother Earth). Very fun.

 

But, hey. The "Chivalry League" (no parachute kill, no Ju-52 Red Cross shoot...)   will approve this? 

 

Actually going by the Geneva Convention, paratroopers are considered active combatants and are completely fair game to gun down, while hanging from the chutes. Aircraft crew who have bailed out on the other hand are considered to have "surrendered" and may not be harmed, even if they are going to land on their own territory.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Finkeren

[Gunsmith86]

- They jumped without weapons and had them in separate containers (not reallly a great idea)

 

 

At the beginning of the war they jumped with pistol and grenades all other weapons were in separate containers.

After Crete they all jumped with MP 40, pistole and grenades they also got a large number of special weapons for more fierpower.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SharpeXB]

US pilots (according to a German account) had orders to kill any German pilot no matter how. In the air in a chute on the ground. Otherwise they would be back in the air the same day.

In reality the US wanted it's pilots to be able to bail out over Germany so how much this edict was followed who knows. Such conduct falls under the universal law of Quid pro quo

Basically "do unto other as you'd have them do to you"

[Gambit21]

For U.S. it depended on the pilot - each made his own decision. Downing chutes was more common in the Pacific.

[SharpeXB]

Paratroopers figure large in the mystique of WWII. Of course because they're badass and all that. Truth be told they probably weren't that effective and the resources that it took to utilize them could have been better spent. The Allies were able to employ them en masse only because they had the means to field so many transport aircraft and even then they fell short and had to use gliders for a good number of troops.

Market Garden as the premier example of a plan conceived around using a large airborne force revealed the folly in the concept. Dropping your own troops to be intentionally surrounded and then being forced to rescue them. It's intentionally creating a Stalingrad or Bastogne pocket scenario with your own battle plan, something all armies should avoid.

Either the ground forces won't advance fast enough and the airborne component gets annihilated or the ground forces advance so quickly that the objective is overrun before the complex air drop could be planned. D-Day and Eben-Emael stand out as perhaps the only real successes.

[Finkeren]

True. Massed use of airborne troops had a few notable successes during WW2, but overall it's just a failed concept.

 

The Red Army's only large scale use of paratroopers during the Lower Dniepr offensive in 1943 was such a spectacular failure, that they never attempted something like it again.

[Gunsmith86]

Paratroopers figure large in the mystique of WWII. Of course because they're badass and all that. Truth be told they probably weren't that effective and the resources that it took to utilize them could have been better spent. The Allies were able to employ them en masse only because they had the means to field so many transport aircraft and even then they fell short and had to use gliders for a good number of troops.

Market Garden as the premier example of a plan conceived around using a large airborne force revealed the folly in the concept. Dropping your own troops to be intentionally surrounded and then being forced to rescue them. It's intentionally creating a Stalingrad or Bastogne pocket scenario with your own battle plan, something all armies should avoid.

Either the ground forces won't advance fast enough and the airborne component gets annihilated or the ground forces advance so quickly that the objective is overrun before the complex air drop could be planned. D-Day and Eben-Emael stand out as perhaps the only real successes.

 

Don´t think so.

The ability of air assault to enter the battlefield from any location allows paratroopers to evade emplaced fortifications that exist to prevent an attack from a specific direction, and the possible use of paratroopers, forces an army to spread their defenses to protect other areas which would otherwise be safe by geographical virtue. Very small forces often captured bridges, fortifications and airfields which made there use for the enamy impossible and force him to send a much larger force to recapture these places. They enamy gets often confused because of a high number of reported attacks from many diretions which makes it hard to guess from where the real attack will come. Many small operations often prevented that the enamy could redeploy or mass his forces quickly to avoid enamy breakthroughs. Even on failed mission they often bound far greater forces which not seldom lead to victory for other forces near by. The use of gliders was very important and offers many possiblitys. They can be realeased far from the target and glide in whitout any noise, they are cheap to build, they can bring heavy equipment, they dont need a airfiled to land, they can be towed by bombers and whit that quickly extend your transport capability.

 

Airborne operations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_forces#German_operations

Edited October 2, 2016 by Gunsmith86

[InProgress]

True. Massed use of airborne troops had a few notable successes during WW2, but overall it's just a failed concept.

 

The Red Army's only large scale use of paratroopers during the Lower Dniepr offensive in 1943 was such a spectacular failure, that they never attempted something like it again.

They are used to this day, paratroopers is not bad idea if used right, they can do stuff behind enemy lines as small commando unit. Diversion is also nice job for them or coordinated attack like on d-day (but better )

[Finkeren]

They are used to this day, paratroopers is not bad idea if used right, they can do stuff behind enemy lines as small commando unit. Diversion is also nice job for them or coordinated attack like on d-day (but better )

You misread me. I said that massed use of paratroopers to occupy and hold ground was a failed idea.

 

Paratroopers used in limited numbers in conjunction with regular offensive operations can be quite effective.

[SharpeXB]

They are used to this day, paratroopers is not bad idea if used right, they can do stuff behind enemy lines as small commando unit. Diversion is also nice job for them or coordinated attack like on d-day (but better )

Paratroopers could not be employed today in the way they were in WWII. Today they aren't envisioned to be used tactically, vertically flanking the enemy. Large low flying transport aircraft would be obliterated by modern air defenses. Going behind enemy lines today where infantry are equipped with shoulder fired AA missiles and into the teeth of enemy SAM systems wouldn't be feasible.

Today airborne forces are used to get troops quickly to any area of the world where there isn't an airstrip. But they couldn't be used in contested airspace like in WWII.

Edited October 2, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Gunsmith86]

There you are wrong they can very well be employed today as they did in WWII. Today they are not even envisioned to be used tactically no they go so far as to make large scale ground operation unsassary by exterminate targets and disapear with helicopter before the enamy is able to redeploy forces to attack them. As to large low flying transports well they couln´t do that in world war 2 nor can they do this today without support from other units so nothing changed here.

 

 

 

But they couldn't be used in contested airspace like in WWII.

 

Well they never opperated in contested airspace in WWII. The attacking force allways had air superiority, only oposition was flak which was avoided when ever possible or suppressed by bombers and groundattack aircraft just like they do today. Ground based air defences got much better today but so did counter-measures.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Gunsmith86

[SharpeXB]

 Well they never opperated in contested airspace in WWII. The attacking force allways had air superiority, only oposition was flak which was avoided when ever possible or suppressed by bombers and groundattack aircraft just like they do today. Ground based air defences got much better today but so did counter-measures.

Right, by "contested" I mean against an enemy which has air defense systems. In WWII the enemy had air defenses but they weren't as effective as SAMs or MANPADs would be today. In order to conduct a drop behind enemy lines today the DZ and the air corridor there and back would have to be sanitized to the extent that nobody would be left alive for 50 miles surrounding it.

In the Gulf War the 82nd Airborne rode trucks into battle.

My brother is in the Airborne so most of this flak I give him just out of jealousy. ;-)

[hames123]

You misread me. I said that massed use of paratroopers to occupy and hold ground was a failed idea.

 

 

Paratroopers used in limited numbers in conjunction with regular offensive operations can be quite effective.

Well, a certain German commander wanted to drop all his paratroops on English ports during the Dunkirk evacuation. It would have been a disaster for the Germans if he got his way.