So what do we know about the Battle of Kuban?

[Chief_Mouser]

We can use this thread for sharing historical information about the upcoming BoK.

 

THE PLANE SET.

 

The aircraft announced for BoK point at the 1943 battles, specifically but not exclusively those in April and May of 1943.

So, what aircraft can we use?

 

Yogy’s Plane Distribution table http://www.yogysoft.de/DL/pdt.xls is a big help here, and I reckon that including BoS and BoM aircraft we have a pretty good plane set:

 

VVS

 

I-16 type 24

MiG-3

LaGG-3 s.29

La-5 s.8

Yak-1 s.69

Yak-1b

Yak-7b

Spitfire Vb

P-39 L-1

P-40 E-1

 

Il-2 AM38 (model 1942)

Il-2 mod. 1943 UBT

 

A-20B

Pe-2 s.87

 

Luftwaffe

 

Bf109G-2

Bf109G-4

Fw190A-3

 

Fw190A-5

Bf110G-2

Ju87D-3

 

He111H-6

He111H-16

Ju88A-4

 

Ju52/3m

 

 

There’s not really a lot missing if we can ignore the odd version difference, but other aircraft that would fit the scenario are:

 

VVS:

 

Po-2/U-2: The ubiquitous recce/light bomber biplane

Li-2: The Russian built version of the DC-3, a counterpart to the Ju52

PBN-1 Nomad and MBR-2: flying boats! Useful testers for the future Pacific scenarios? Especially the Nomad.

 

Luftwaffe:

 

Bf109G-6: although only arrived towards the latter part of the year I too think that it makes more sense to include this rather than the G-4

Fi 156: recce aircraft that goes well with the Po-2

Fw189: another recce aircraft and (very) light bomber.

Ar196: floatplane. See comments regarding flying boats.

 

If Kuban is a success then the addition of the Li-2, MBR-2 and Ar196 at some stage would fill out the plane set nicely as there doesn’t seem to be any built-in use for the reconnaissance aircraft at the moment, or in the future plans.

So all in all, a pretty complete plane set that should please most folks.

Edited September 9, 2016 by 216th_Cat

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Also, Yak-9 pls. 

Also hoping for later Maps where we can use Unrestricted 109Gs with full 1.42ata. I'm really hoping for Autumn 1943 as for the Planeset. 

 

The G-4 would also most likely have the late type Landing Gear, so it would perform slightly worse. 

 

I think the Ju-88 should also get more Defensive Armament Options, like MG131s.

 

The He-111s should have the Second Bomb Bay Freed up for more internal ordonance. 

 

Ju-87D-3 should be available as D-5 as well (20mm MG151/20s  in the wings of the MG17s) which would give it far better firepower. 

 

(LaGG-3 upgrade to seria 42-65: More Speed, lighter, Slats for better manouverability, different Windshield) 

 

P-40E should have War Emergency Ratings available (56" at 3000=1500hp)

 

Maybe Upgrade of I-16 to type 29 Model, with more armor, as Ground Attack Version. 

Edited September 9, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Chief_Mouser]

Spitfires over the Kuban

 

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/spit/

 

Good article about the Spitfires of the 216th SAD in Kuban.

Incidentally, the 216th are going to have the full plane set in Kuban :

 

 

 

By April 1943, the 216th SAD comprised five regiments: 16th Guards IAP, 45th IAP, 42nd IAP, 57th Guards IAP, and 765th Ground-Attack Aviation Regiment (shturmovoy aviatsionnyy polk – ShAP). The division had been executing combat missions while based on Popovicheskaya airfield, not far from Krasnodar, since early April. Altogether the division had 114 aircraft, by type: 14 Yak-1, 48 P-39 Airacobra, 8 P-40 Kittyhawk, and 29 Spitfire. The division complement also included a ground-attack regiment, which had on hand 15 Il-2 Shturmoviks.

[wtornado]

Oh ya.

 

 

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

I hope the Ju-52 will get floats along with Kuban. Could be the test plane for floats

Edited September 9, 2016 by 6./ZG26_McKvack

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Good thread, Cat

 

I'll post whatever I can find here.

 

 

 

Also, Yak-9 pls.

 

No Yak-9s over Kuban for the most of it, except the odd unit arriving later, closer to Autumn. That being said, it has not been specified which Yak-7B model we are getting. The later versions, possibly the ones we will be handed, were factually early Yak-9s, with bubble cockpits and most of the goodies associated with the latter. On the flipside, if we get the last Yak-7B, we give up an UBS (not that 12.7mm + 20mm isn't enough).

For a very decent first-hand account of Kuban, read this chapter of Pokryshkin's book (in Spanish): http://www.rkka.es/Otros_articulos/16_Pokryshkin/011.htm

 

Here is an automatically translated version, which still gives you a good idea of what went on: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rkka.es%2FOtros_articulos%2F16_Pokryshkin%2F011.htm&edit-text=

[Danziger]

Ahh decisions. A bubble canopy or an extra UBS... I'm sure we will get the ugly version with extra gun. That is the most iconic Yak-7B.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Probably, Borys. We have the Yak-1 and the P-39 for sleek-looking bubbly action anyway, and the latter packs a 37mm brick-shooter in the nose.

 

To find the home of the 216th Fighter Aviation Division in 1943, look for the rough coordinates of Popovicheskaya Airfield are 45º28'56" N, 38º39'46" E. I had more exact ones but I can't seem to find the airfield on Google Maps any more, help is appreciated. During most of the engagements, the German opposition usually took off from around Anapa. The distances were ridiculously short between the airbases, which makes it all the more interesting. Kuban was a bloody high-tech pistols-at-dawn duel between elite pilots on both sides.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Scratch that. Enter Калининская on Google Maps, then look slightly to the South West, across the Ponura river. You can see a very, very tiny and unimpressive dirt airfield with a three aprons and not much else. To think the spearhead of the Soviet aerial offensive might relied on that dirty strip, and that some of its finest commanders galvanised their skills and reputation there

[Chief_Mouser]

Blimey. That is a poky little field. The runway's just 400m - postwar I assume? There is another airfield, almost identical, to the north of Kalininskaya. Just as unimpressive.

Cheers.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Well spotted, Cat

 

Hard to say which one was actual Popovicheskaya. Kalininskaya was known as Popovicheskaya until 1927, but all records point that one of those airstrips bore the name during the war. My guess is the Southern one though, mainly because you had around 100 aircraft to park, repair and disperse, I can hardly see them fit all that into the northern airfield.

 

Curiously, despite having most fighter forces concentrated at Anapa and Popovicheskaya, there were fairly little airfield attacks on either side. I can't argue with the logic though, trying to catch either 216 SAD or JG 52 on the ground where both are running at full capacity and arguably at their all-time prime sounds like suicide.

[Chief_Mouser]

Been looking at http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/index.html and found a few interesting pics. Nothing of Kalininskaya though.

 

Here we are:

 

Anapa. Airfield is where Ziel 1693 is written.

 

 

Anapa airfield. A close-up view.

 

 

Krasnodar I

 

 

Krasnodar II (further to the East)

 

 

Novorossiysk - part of the airfield at the top. This was the big concrete job on the old Il-2.

 

 

Cheers.

Edited September 11, 2016 by 216th_Cat

[HR_Tofolo]

And please don't forget the La-5F

[Chief_Mouser]

And please don't forget the La-5F

I think we can forget it. Jason has made no mention of the La-5F. Early La-5 is as good as you're going to get for the moment.

Cheers.

[Asgar]

actually he said that G-6 and La-5F would make a great set of collector planes

[HR_Tofolo]

I'm aware of that but since this looks like a complete list I thought the La-5F should be in since it took part in Kuban.

[seafireliv]

I don`t care any more- just gimme that SPITFIRE!

[Chief_Mouser]

actually he said that G-6 and La-5F would make a great set of collector planes

Did he? Missed that bit. Would make sense but if that's the case then what he said on the Russian Q&A wouldn't leave much room for the MBR-2 etc. Plus, the VVS seem fated never to see the DB3-F/Il-4 and the Luftwaffe won't get the Ju87B . Both sorely needed.

Cheers.

Edited September 11, 2016 by 216th_Cat

[seafireliv]

Spitfires over the Kuban

 

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/spit/

 

Good article about the Spitfires of the 216th SAD in Kuban.

Incidentally, the 216th are going to have the full plane set in Kuban :

 

 

 

 

Amazing. Seems like the Germans were flying captured yaks! And ONE He111 actually flying by itself??? Were they insane. And one cocky FW190 attacking lone? I didn`t think any German pilot would`ve risked that in reality- looks like the sim isn`t so inaccurate after all.

 

Fascinating.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I think we can forget it. Jason has made no mention of the La-5F. Early La-5 is as good as you're going to get for the moment.

Cheers.

 

actually he said that G-6 and La-5F would make a great set of collector planes

 

Did he? Missed that bit. Would make sense but if that's the case then what he said on the Russian Q&A wouldn't leave much room for the MBR-2 etc. Plus, the VVS seem fated never to see the DB3-F/Il-4 and the Luftwaffe won't get the Ju87B . Both sorely needed.

Cheers.

 

On the Q&A Jason talked about the Bf109G-6 and the La-5F. Neither were part of the original plan and he had two other aircraft picked out as possible Collector Planes to be put together and offered sometime after the release of BoK.  The G-6 comes in at the end of the battle and the 5F somewhere in the middle and I don't think either played a huge role. That said... Jason's listening. He certainly knew that some folks were looking for those two types so there is always the possibility.

 

He neglected to mention what the other two might be. In the Russian Q&A he mentioned the MBR-2? Interesting to be sure.

Edited September 11, 2016 by ShamrockOneFive

[Asgar]

if the MBR-2 is one of the other two i could imagine something like the Do-24 being the second one. Which i would also like very much

Edited September 11, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[Danziger]

The great thing about Collector Planes is that they can make as many as they want whenever they have the time. They aren't limited to two planes per Battle of Wherever like the Premium was. They can release a pair here and there when they can. What would be cool is if modders could use the existing planes to modify into the similar variants to submit for official approval and integration. This way the developers could focus on making more different types everyone wants. We just need to draw all those great modders from old games to here.

[Asgar]

but as Jason mentioned, he's not even sure they'll have time for any collectors planes after BoK before they have to start work on Pacific. Therefore if BoK is the end of eastern front for the foreseeable future it should really enrich the plane set. it does on the VVS with land lease and new designs like the Yak-7, Luftwaffe on the other hand is another 111, another 110 and another G-2...eh sorry a G-4

[Danziger]

This is where good modders could do variations of existing planes like LaGG-3 earlier and later series. MiG-3 earlier series. Pe-2 into Pe-3s. Different 109 and 190 types. Other Il-2 and Ju-87 variants. Ju-52 and Ju-88 variants. So the plane set can expand into Il-2 1946 proportions.

[Asgar]

he also said there wont be any modded planes. all the FM things are basically hard-coded and they're not willing to give people the necessary level of access to the engine (which is understandable)

[Chief_Mouser]

Presumably this is the Il-2 coming with BoK?

 

Il-2 Straight-Winged Two-Seater Early (Type 1943 Early)

 

Il-2s with the rear gunner’s position and the UBT 50-calibre machine gun entered production at the end of 1942 and are referred to as ‘Il-2M’ in post-war literature; here as elsewhere in this book they are referred to as the straight-winged two-seater. The rear part of the canopy was replaced with a longer one covering the gunner’s position, with the gunner’s part hinged on the right side; this part was often removed in the field to give more visibility and field of fire to the gunner. The tail wheel was enlarged and strengthened. The indentation above the tail wheel on the underside of the fuselage was also enlarged. Straight-winged two-seaters were always equipped with a dust filter on the wing root; during the winter of 1942/ 43, the AM-38 engine was replaced with the more powerful AM-38F, but this isn’t distinguishable by the external appearance of the aeroplane, except for a slightly larger propeller. All straight-winged two-seaters had only two rocket rails for each wing (instead of four) to save weight. The straight-winged two-seaters of the first half of 1943 had: a long tunnel-like rear canopy for the gunner (which was sometimes removed); a short antenna mast; early type rocket rails (as on single-seaters); a pitot tube closer to the guns than to the wingtips (as on single-seaters); black/ green camouflage (as on single-seaters). A variant of the gunner’s canopy, shortened and with lateral cuts, has been seen on only a couple of photographs; it’s unclear if it was modified in the field or factory produced, although it was probably a field modification…

From Il-2 Shturmovik: Red Avenger by Jason Nicholas Moore.

Edited September 11, 2016 by 216th_Cat

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Surely that one, Cat. Straight-winged heavy-laden bastard but just as good at blowing stuff up.

 

The conundrum is the same old one: get the gunner and you get protection, but miss out on agility. Lt. Yegorova (writer of 'Over Fields of Fire', also known as 'Red Sky, Black Death') fought over Kuban and was faced with that choice. Early in 1943, her regiment was receiving new Il-2s with a rear gunner. While most pilots customarily stood in line to get new aircraft, Yegorova figured the agility was enough to fend off against enemy fighters and would be more useful against them than a rear-gunner. Fast-forward a few weeks, Yegorova was the last pilot flying single-seaters when her squadron went out on a mission. Lo' and behold, the Bf-109s show up hungry and as fate had it Yegorova was without a rear gunner, flying tail-end Charlie in a diamond formation. A stroke of luck and bravery from Yegorova and her wingmen brought the flight back in one piece, but both Yegorova and her squadron leader were fuming and exchanged some heated words after the flight. After that close encounter with death (one of many in the daily life of an Il-2 pilot) Yegorova decided to give in and started flying the new aircraft with the gunner.

[Fern]

Been looking at http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/index.html and found a few interesting pics. Nothing of Kalininskaya though.

 

Cheers.

 

Those are awesome. Ive been trying to find airfields also on Google Earth. I went back to Stuka Pilot Book and he talks about airfields at Kerch and Kerch Baherove for Luftwaffe. Sounds like they took off from Kerch to patrol the Novorossiysk Landings.

 

Source: http://www.academia.edu/11902948/The_Defence_and_Evacuation_of_the_Kuban_Bridgehead_January_-_October_1943

 

Rudel even talks about small boats in the marshes along the Temryuk Bay with the lakes all the way up to Yeysk. 

Here are the front lines:

 

Would Novorossiysk airfield be present if the Novorossiysk Landing Operations going on? Then later stages in conflict fallback to Evacuation of the Bridgehead. Novorossiysk, Krymsk, and Moldavanskoye sound like hot spots.

[ShamrockOneFive]

but as Jason mentioned, he's not even sure they'll have time for any collectors planes after BoK before they have to start work on Pacific. Therefore if BoK is the end of eastern front for the foreseeable future it should really enrich the plane set. it does on the VVS with land lease and new designs like the Yak-7, Luftwaffe on the other hand is another 111, another 110 and another G-2...eh sorry a G-4

 

The biggest "problem" with Kuban or even Kursk is that the aircraft don't change too much for the Luftwaffe side. Technically the Yak-7 is very similar to the other two Yak's we have/will have and the IL-2 is similarly updated as the Bf110 is.

 

I'm ok with incremental changes so long as they are faithfully updated for the sub model. I have little fear that they will do that.

[II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33]

he also said there wont be any modded planes. all the FM things are basically hard-coded and they're not willing to give people the necessary level of access to the engine (which is understandable)

It's kinda short sighted at the same time,it's because of mods that Il2 1946 and Cliffs of Dover are still played to this day

[Cybermat47]

actually he said that G-6 and La-5F would make a great set of collector planes

I think it's better to have the G-4 in BoK, as from the sounds of it it was there from beginning to end, but I'd buy a G-6 in a heartbeat!

Edited September 12, 2016 by Cybermat47

[ShamrockOneFive]

It's kinda short sighted at the same time,it's because of mods that Il2 1946 and Cliffs of Dover are still played to this day

 

It sounds like the primary reason that they aren't doing it is technological. The game engine wasn't written (this goes back years) for modular access to just be able to throw new aircraft in. To add the feature, Jason tells us, would take some very complicated reworking of the plumbing.

[Feathered_IV]

Superb photos Cat.  Really nice.

[BlackSix]

Guys, if you can and want to help us, please, publish any information, descriptions and photos of Soviet and German airfields in this thread

Airfields at Kuban and Kerch Peninsula

[Trooper117]

Great air recce photos... thanks