Turrets stations are too complicated and slow to handle during combat. Please fix it!

[Neil]

I mean, "please improve it!" (Sorry I can not edit the title)

I am really enjoying this sim and I think more and more that this is the true successor to the successful original IL2! The dev team is simply doing an outstanding job!

However, The first time I played this sim, and I jumped to turrets, 

I must admit I was very sad to see that it is much more complicated and hard to handle than the original IL2

To sum up:

 

By the time you know that a fighter is on your tail, the time it takes to

1- press on "switch to the next free plane combat post" key several times (depending on which bomber you fly... and do not press it the wrong number of time, otherwise you will end up with the wrong turret!)

3- press on "turret: take/leave control" key

4-Press on "turret: nestle to the gunsight" key

5-Aiming down the fighter because the AI gunner left him in the wrong position, OR worse , he left the magazine (He111) empty

Boom it is too late, the fighter is already gone and you took damage. Is this funny??? you hadn't have a chance to defend yourself!

 

 

Ok , I thought I was not enough fast, so I took time to train myself.

But still with hours of playing, I am not always able to fix that problem, and it contributes to make very painful to fly bombers

 

 

 

 

List of possible improvements

 

1-Make handling turret by directly pressing "turret: nestle to the gunsight" key

2-Remove the latency when we are using the trackir with with mode (yes the head is moving too slowly! hard to look on fighter which are fast!)

3-Assign one key for each station. Ok, Will be done for Battle of Kuban!

4-Make sure that the AI gunner do not leave empty magazines on stations.

5-Most important : Remove speed limitation rotation on turrets, because we can not aim properly in the current state. with this speed limitation, we can not know where the turret sight will stop when we are moving it. Will it stop on the desired angle? we never know, and it is very very difficult to aim a fighter sometimes, especially with He111 dorsal turret and Ju87 turret

6-Make the gunner turrets to reload automatically

7-Fix the bug on the he111 top turret : On the gusight mode, when I move the turret full left, the view is panning on inside the turret radio stuff (when we move left from rear position) which does not help to watch the figther , the horizon thus controlling the airplane.

8- Enable trackir view on the Ju87 turret (gunsight mode)

9- Ability to switch gunner station for human player on MP

10- He111/bf110c : be able to reload magazine even if it is not empty.

 

As you can see this list reflect more the Original IL2 spirit turret handling, which was perfect in my opinion, people got used to it during more than 10 years.

 

If change are made, It will  encourage more people into bombing and it will be much more fun to operate bombers... like the original IL2 which made its proofs. Moreover, the the dev team made a wonderful job with the bombsight : simple, easy to handle, very enjoyable to operate, so why things are very complicated and not fun at all for gunner stations?

Edited October 31, 2016 by Nil

[Sokol1]

A shortcut for each station (pilot/rear gun, belly gun...) is needed - sequential control is very awkward (Who don't remember the dammed IL:46, RRRRRR... ops one R more...). 

 

But IL-2:46 are too "gamey" (IMO) in certain things, please no just "cut & past".

[Neil]

There is nothing wrong with have a "gamey" turret handling.. It is much better than having a complicated system that leave you no chance to even pull the trigger when you have to. In my opinion, the "gamey" system, as you call it, was fine and realistic enough. By the way I do not mind to have to reload on the he111 as it was like that in the reality.

 

I am just a simmer who think that the handling is too complicated and clunky and I am sure I am not the only one...I am looking for solutions! 

Edited September 7, 2016 by Nil

[Asgar]

i have no problem with the gunners. maybe you shouldn't zoom in all the way. the panning speed scales with zoom level, the higher your zoom, the slower your traverse and the other way around.

[Neil]

Thank you with your reply, even if my zoom level is low, the turret takes time to move and has a latency, I am talking about the dorsal gunner in the he111. By the way, do you use the gunsight or the yellow circle to shoot? 

For me, the yellow circle is not playable because sometimes it is behind the gun itself. so I have to use the gunsight, thus I have to press several buttons each time I want to just pull a trigger...

[Neil]

Thank you Chief for your reply!

Yes, automatically be in control and on iron sight by default would simplify things and even help newbies as well to handle turret.

 

The point 5 is rather useful on the dorsal gunner of the PE2 (blister turret) and the He111.

The logic would say that it is normal to limit the rotation speed, but I see that it simply makes us more difficult to handle the gun, simply. This would be relevant on ball turrets (b17, b24...)

the handling  is more like a tank cannon  than a machine gun  like the mg15 (those on the he111)... you see what I mean?

Edited September 7, 2016 by Nil

[SAG]

i 10000% percent agree that turrets are amazingly clunky to handle, it should just be a button for each turret and that your always nestled to gunsight.

 

on top of that, please have the game lock your cursor to one screen! (so you dont accidentaly tab out) every game can do this, why cant Il2?

[Neil]

Thanks to your reply SAG  ! I am glad that I am not the only one to think that...

I really love this sim, and for me, this is the biggest concern as I fly only bombers.

 

"Amazingly clunky to handle" you said, that is exactly what I feel. 

it should just be a button for each turret and that your always nestled to gunsight.

Yes, by default it should be always nestled to gunsight . It is simple as that.

We leave it nestled -> it stays nestled as we change view and we go back

We leave it not nestled -> it stays like that.

Simple like that. 

 

For the cursor lock, I guess you are using multiple screen, sure, the cursor has to be locked.

 

[Sokol1]

 

  3- press on "turret: take/leave control" key

4-Press on "turret: nestle to the gunsight" key

 

I think this is in this way - as in CloD, don't know how is in RoF but suspect that is the same - due the 6DOF in turrets cockpit, old IL-2 don't have 6DOF.

 

But I solve this easily, just assign the same key press for both functions.

[Sokol1]

- Crew Position Hotkeys   

[Monostripezebra]

I think the turrets are workable and you can defend yourself.. but a little ergonomic polishing wouldn´t be bad.

 

direct switching to, instead of cycling through would be a good idea. Goes as well for the substations of a crewstation like the 3 positions for the Pe bellygunner.. The ai often switches to one of the rather useless sideguns and it can be a bit of a drag to cycle to the position you want, just because of the crazy mood of the ai gunner.. or all this gun/hatch opening closeing everytime you cycle/switch.

[Neil]

Thank you very much for your feedback guys! it helps me a lot 

One of my all-time favourite games was the original B17. There certainly isn't the ease of controlling gun positions in Il2 AAA there was in that, but that is perhaps because they were too user friendly.

However, I feel the bombers in game are beautifully made but lack a couple of things that would enable them to really shine. Mainly the ease of switching turrets as mentioned but also the visibility of ground targets from attitude and ideally, dedicated bomber campaigns in single player.

PS. Just for the record with regards to the thread title, I don't think it is a case of 'fix', more just ' improve'

Oh and the difficulty of trying to level bomb at high pilot level!

 

In my opinion, we need user friendly stuff, like the dev team has done with the bombsight (outstanding job! much better than the original il2!)

When the gunner guy in real life was under attack, he did not had to think about what key he has to press...

 

No: just aim and shoot. He had to act fast

 

Guess what, same thing in our sim: we have to act fast.

That is why we need a more user friendly system.

 

I agree with with you ChiefWH, the bombers are very very beautifully made, but as you meant it, we can not use them at their full potential. because of:

1- the slow and complicated turret system,

2- and the visibility of ground target. 

 

You convinced me for the title of my title, I wish I can  replace "fix it" by "improve it" , but I can not edit the title of my post, sadly, but I added that in the beginning of my post. 

 

 

I think this is in this way - as in CloD, don't know how is in RoF but suspect that is the same - due the 6DOF in turrets cockpit, old IL-2 don't have 6DOF.

 

But I solve this easily, just assign the same key press for both functions.

 

We just need to press the button "turret: nestle to the gunsight" to be directly behind the gunsight from the "idle" position of the turret (closed turret canopy in the dorsal he111 gunner) it is like a shortcut (the original IL2 works like that)

In this mode (gunsight) we still have to have the 2DOF trackir and be able to look around without latency (which we have right now)

On a funny note, on this mode, we not even turn the head in the ju87...is it a bug?

 

 

 

But when you return to a position doesn't it currently remember one but not the other, then they would be out of sync?

I could swear if I return to a position it forgets the iron sight position?

 

Yes you are right. I tried what Sokol kindly suggested and yes it works!

But you have to switch back to idle position BEFORE leaving the turret, because as you said it ChiefWH, when we return to position , it forgets the iron sight position: 

It is on the "control" position (floating yellow reticle), but you have to press "nestle to the gunsight" key. 

So the designated key for both fonction (take control and nestle to the gunsight) does not work here.

 

 

- Crew Position Hotkeys   

 

Outstanding! so it is planned to do it!

 

I think the turrets are workable and you can defend yourself.. but a little ergonomic polishing wouldn´t be bad.

 

direct switching to, instead of cycling through would be a good idea. Goes as well for the substations of a crewstation like the 3 positions for the Pe bellygunner.. The ai often switches to one of the rather useless sideguns and it can be a bit of a drag to cycle to the position you want, just because of the crazy mood of the ai gunner.. or all this gun/hatch opening closeing everytime you cycle/switch.

Thanks Monostripezebra for your opinion.

Of course they are workable, and I can defend myself, but not every time for me, and we need to have to chance de pull the trigger every time, because it is very frustrating to not defend ourselves when we have everything in place for that!

 

YES! direct switching even for the single crewstation  with 3 position (pe2) and 2 positions (he111)

So it makes a total of 

7 positions for the he111 (pilot included so we can directly see where we are going when we feel that our trajectory goes into the ground!)

5 positions for the pe2

 

As you said, we will not be dependent of what the AI gunner does!

Right now the waist gunners are not very playable because of what you said... it is a shame when you see how much love dev team put into their modelisation!

 

Thank you guys again for your constructive feedback!    

Edited September 8, 2016 by Nil

[Neil]

After hours of playing as a gunner, 

I found a new idea to improve it:

 

Make the gunner turrets to reload automatically (He111 and bf110)

That way it avoid us to press a button then wasting time in such hasty moments and simplify things.

Maybe it will also make the AI gunner to not leave empty magazine which is very dangerous!

 

There is a bug in the He111 top turret:

On the gusight mode, when I move the turret full left, the view is panning on inside the turret (radio stuff when we move left from rear position) which does not help to watch the figther , the horizon thus controlling the airplane.

 

The Ju87 gunner on gunsight mode lacks trackir support.

 

I have updated my post.

 

What do you guys bomber pilot think about those news ideas?

Edited September 11, 2016 by Nil

[Sokol1]

Yes you are right. I tried what Sokol kindly suggested and yes it works!

But you have to switch back to idle position BEFORE leaving the turret, because as you said it ChiefWH, when we return to position , it forgets the iron sight position: 

It is on the "control" position (floating yellow reticle), but you have to press "nestle to the gunsight" key. 

So the designated key for both fonction (take control and nestle to the gunsight) does not work here.

 

 

Here for fast access to gunners I set in this way:

 

R - Switch to a next free plane combat post (change crew station)

T - Turret: take/leave control (Alt+T too for the case want individual control over this due the next assignment in T)

T - Turret: nestle to the gunsight (Aim)

U - Switch to a next firing point in the current turret (example, change between right/left gunner position in Pe-2).

 

This allow fast access to rear gunner, specially in IL-2, Ju-87 or in tanks. Just type R,T.

As you notice, for leave the station is need do the inverse, type T,R or broken the control synchronism and in the next time you end without control over turret. 

Simple to get used.

 

What really complicate things - but was announced to be changed - is the sequential command in same key for access different crews station, in a hurry you end in the wrong place.   

Edited September 11, 2016 by Sokol1

[Neil]

Thank you very much Sokol 1!

That is a good way to be faster!

 

I use the logitech mmo to not have to use keyboard, it helps a lot.

Thanks to your tip, I use now the same key for take control and nestle, so it is easier!

I wish the dev team make them much simpler and fast to operate turrets... 

 

Gosh, those bombers are so well done, you can see and feel that the dev team made them with a lot of love and passion. I wish more people would enjoy them!

[SpaydCBR]

I enjoy them! I need more practice though  . What server do you play on and at what time? Maybe I'll join you some day 

[Enfield]

A big boon for multiplayer would be the ability for the gunner to be able to switch stations. At the moment once you hop into say the nose gun of your friends 111, you are stuck there. This means that to effectively man the entire compliment you need 4 people. Not to mention if the enemy flies out of your arc and into that of the AI gunner the results can be..frustrating. 

 

Just a thought.

[Neil]

Hi Enfield!

Thank you for your feedback, I am so honered you write your first post on this topic, so welcome in the forum!

 

Yes, a good feature would be for a human gunner to be able to switch station.

 

An another ida: the pilot should lock or inlock individual gunner station.

[SpaydCBR]

Yes, a good feature would be for a human gunner to be able to switch station.

This just NEEDS to be done! That fact that it's not is just a shame.

[Neil]

Yes! List of improvements updated!

[Neil]

So after "playing" with all turrets of bomber,

I discovered that the problem lies mostly with the dorsal he111 turret

 

Issues:

Too slow to move compared to other turrets,

View going inside aircraft when moving it left/right which prevent to see outside. (see pictures)

Manuel reloading which has to be automatic to simplify things and prevent IA to leave empty magazines.

 

 

[LukeFF]

 

 

Manuel reloading which has to be automatic to simplify things and prevent IA to leave empty magazines.

 

The AI reloads its magazines. 

[Neil]

Normally yes, but sometimes, when you jump into a turret, we find empty magazines, sadly. 

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25632-ju-88-vs-he-111-ai-gunners/?do=findComment&comment=397515

 

And yes, I also experienced the He111 gunner leaving empty magazines for you.

 

Edited October 31, 2016 by Nil

[Yogiflight]

Yes, I can confirm this, it happens quite often, to be honest. Can it be, that AI only reloads, when he wants to shoot and notices, that the magazine is empty. This would explain, why he stops shooting without reloading. BTW, it should be possible to reload magazines before they are empty, as it is in shooter games.

[Neil]

Thanks Yogiflight for sharing your experience  . I thought the same actually. 

The AI does not reload if he does need to shoot. thus wasting precious second when he needs to shoot. 

 

Reload magazine before they are empty is a good idea as well, it avoids to waste time them to finish them. I add that in the wishlist.

[Yogiflight]

The only german, that have to be reloaded are all positions in the He111 and the Bf110. But this can not be the reason of the feeling, that own gunners are useless, because this is also the case in the Ju87 and 88, which are equipped with MG81s with very high firing rate and 750 or 1000 rounds belts. If you take those positions your own, you can be quite successfull, as those are beasty weapons, but AI gunners just shoot holes in the air.

[Yogiflight]

BTW, I didn't want to say, this is a german-aircraft-only problem. It is just, I don't have the experience with the russian aircrafts.