Bf 109 inverted spin

[AndyJWest]

Trying to flick roll at high altitude, I found myself upside down, spinning, and running out of ideas...   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG6Yt8yfq8s&feature=youtu.be
 
I'm not sure the inverted spin is authentic - I suspect not, though it seemed believable enough. The rudder seemed to have no effect, and neither did the elevator. Eventually I tried aileron as well - not sure which way, but it worked.
 
The landing approach wasn't exactly elegant. I let it get too low and too slow, and lost the runway under the nose - definitely not the way to do it, though the actual landing wasn't too bad.

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

I also got in an inverted spin - right slip in a landing configuration.  Left slip, no big deal.  Right slip -- that's a problem.

 

The first time I was on final and the spin didn't really develop because the ground got in the way.  The second time I tried it at altitude to see if it was me or if the airplane needs a placard.

 

The next few times I tried it, I did it with varying flap settings, and different gear positions.  The gear seems to be the key.  It is easy to get in a bind with the gear extended and a right slip.

[=69.GIAP=MALYSH]

I have no idea how realistic an inverted spin is in relation to the 109, but it's very much a danger in reality (although hard to get into) and it's very exciting to hear that a sim has implemented it! In reality any plane can enter a variety of spins. Can the 109 enter a normal spin? How about a flat spin, anyone tried to enter one of those?

 

When my instructor described the inverted spin, he told me to reverse the controls. I don't remember if that meant rudder into the spin or opposite rudder than usual for a clockwise spin, still against the spin. And stick back.

 

Have any of our licensed members ever actually gotten into an inverted spin?

[303_Kwiatek]

I have no idea how realistic an inverted spin is in relation to the 109, but it's very much a danger in reality (although hard to get into) and it's very exciting to hear that a sim has implemented it! In reality any plane can enter a variety of spins. Can the 109 enter a normal spin? How about a flat spin, anyone tried to enter one of those?

 

When my instructor described the inverted spin, he told me to reverse the controls. I don't remember if that meant rudder into the spin or opposite rudder than usual for a clockwise spin, still against the spin. And stick back.

 

Have any of our licensed members ever actually gotten into an inverted spin?

 

Inverted spin is not so dangerous like many thinks. Inverted spin should be more easy to recovery then normal spin -  it should be enough to full stick back and opposite rudder to direction of rotation -  recovery should be very quickly - more quickly then in normal spin. I got few inverted spins IRL and never had problem with it.  109 had very good spin characteristic and was known as very easy plane to recovery.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Kwiatek

[eklund]

Trying to flick roll at high altitude, I found myself upside down, spinning, and running out of ideas...   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG6Yt8yfq8s&feature=youtu.be

 

I'm not sure the inverted spin is authentic - I suspect not, though it seemed believable enough. The rudder seemed to have no effect, and neither did the elevator. Eventually I tried aileron as well - not sure which way, but it worked.

 

The landing approach wasn't exactly elegant. I let it get too low and too slow, and lost the runway under the nose - definitely not the way to do it, though the actual landing wasn't too bad.

 

Did you manage to solve the brake problem with inverted axis or do you use buttons because you seem to use differential braking in the video during landing.

[AndyJWest]

Did you manage to solve the brake problem with inverted axis or do you use buttons because you seem to use differential braking in the video during landing.

 

My Saitek pedals worked from the start.

[nevervne]

Inverted spins aren't difficult to get out of, it just takes a long time.

 

You noted that many of the controls seemed ineffective, but if you hold your spin correction long enough, you will exit it.  I know a 109 isn't an Extra 300, but try opposite rudder first, and stick forward. Also, take that throttle back to idle. You're just aggravating the spin leaving it full forward! 

Edited November 26, 2013 by nevervne

[AndyJWest]

Neverne, I had the throttle right back most of the time. 

 

And don't you need to pull the stick back to exit from an inverted spin?

[DD_bongodriver]

Neverne, I had the throttle right back most of the time. 

 

And don't you need to pull the stick back to exit from an inverted spin?

 

Yes, yes you most certainly do.

[Dakpilot]

Or use the Beggs/Mueller emergency spin recovery procedure wonder if that works in BOS?

 

Will have to try 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[DD_bongodriver]

The hands off recovery works on most aircraft in an upright spin, I was told by a friend (ex red arrow and EELightning pilot) that the only aircraft that wouldn't recover hands off was the EE Lightning, don't forget that the hands off recovery does not mean let go of all controls (some people really do think this), full opposite rudder must still be applied.

[=69.GIAP=MALYSH]

cool beans!

Kwiatek, what do you fly that you've been in several inverted spins? That's quite impressive.

[303_Kwiatek]

cool beans!

Kwiatek, what do you fly that you've been in several inverted spins? That's quite impressive.

MDM-1 Fox aerobatic glider and 526 F Zlin aerobatic plane.

[nevervne]

Neverne, I had the throttle right back most of the time. 

 

And don't you need to pull the stick back to exit from an inverted spin?

 

 

Yes, yes you most certainly do.

 

 

Believe it or not in real life the stick goes a little forward to exit an inverted spin. If you pull the stick back you will get an, aggravated, inverted accelerated spin.

Edited November 26, 2013 by nevervne

[DD_bongodriver]

Believe it or not in real life the stick goes a little forward to exit an inverted spin. If you pull the stick back you will get an, aggravated, inverted accelerated spin.

 

Well that certainly goes against every inverted spin recovery technique I have read/heard/learned so I would be fascinated to learn more and do you have a source or link where I can find more info?

[nevervne]

Well that certainly goes against every inverted spin recovery technique I have read/heard/learned so I would be fascinated to learn more and do you have a source or link where I can find more info?

 

I fly the Extra 300 and Pitts Special. Both need the same control inputs to exit the inverted spin. Pulling the stick back is a HUGE no no in both airplanes.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN5gJgsGDks

[Kurfurst]

In Clod I had a lot of problems with entering into a spin, but eventually I found out that that my old Saitek Cyborg had large input spikes - setting a big enough "neutral" filter zone in the center solved it. Apparantly very violent and randomly occuring rudder inputs has caused the problem.

 

In any case, flat spins in a 109 sounds strange. Some really crazy stunts had to be pulled in that plane to make it enter into a flat spin according to Beauvois, one  of the lead test pilots and engineers at Messerschmitt...

[AndyJWest]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFz2_jflTrw

 

"...the exact same recovery except the stick comes aft..."

[DD_bongodriver]

I fly the Extra 300 and Pitts Special. Both need the same control inputs to exit the inverted spin. Pulling the stick back is a HUGE no no in both airplanes.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN5gJgsGDks

 

OK the video explains stick to neutral which I can understand, but it doesn't explain the no no part of stick aft recovery, is this a peculiarity of the types you mention? certainly no mention of stick slightly forward.

[nevervne]

OK the video explains stick to neutral which I can understand, but it doesn't explain the no no part of stick aft recovery, is this a peculiarity of the types you mention? certainly no mention of stick slightly forward.

 

It causes an accelerated spin pulling the stack full aft.

[AndyJWest]

It causes an accelerated spin pulling the stack full aft.

 

I can see that if you pull to hard you could go from an inverted spin to an upright spin. Otherwise I can't see how pulling (i.e. making the aircraft nose drop) is going to increase the spin rate.

Edited November 26, 2013 by AndyJWest

[DD_bongodriver]

It causes an accelerated spin pulling the stack full aft.

 

Ah OK, full aft stick when you already have full rudder I can see being a problem as it is pro-spin input, I would never advocate full pro spin input for any situation but a slight stick forward input for inverted spin recovery sounds very counter intuitive.

In Clod I had a lot of problems with entering into a spin, but eventually I found out that that my old Saitek Cyborg had large input spikes - setting a big enough "neutral" filter zone in the center solved it. Apparantly very violent and randomly occuring rudder inputs has caused the problem.

 

In any case, flat spins in a 109 sounds strange. Some really crazy stunts had to be pulled in that plane to make it enter into a flat spin according to Beauvois, one  of the lead test pilots and engineers at Messerschmitt...

 

Bad handling of any aircraft can cause serious problems, even your beloved 109 with it's magic slats, if a pilot chose to he could also easily deliberately enter these manoeuvres.

Edited November 26, 2013 by DD_bongodriver

[RAY-EU]

And The MIX the inclination of the hélix like in the lagg-3 I see is automatic but the Indicator is always at 6 o´clock and don´t move? may be is a part of the answer or another topic  ¡ ?

 

I am Happy for the good job of this great sim but whe have to compare with il2 Cliffs of Dover and I think il2 Battle of Stalingrad will be in the way to be better and probably The best SIM.

[TX-EcoDragon]

It's all a matter of timing. A good basic technique to remember for active spin recovery techniques in *most* airplanes is the PARE technique (aka: NASA standard method)

 

The following must be done in order, most critical is that the elevator input comes last, after the yaw rate has started to decay.

 

P-Power Idle

A-Ailerons neutral

R-Rudder Opposite the direction of rotation (which you determine by looking directly over the nose, and through the prop disk (resist the urge to look towards the ground when inverted, you can look across the axis of rotation and detect the direction of yaw as being opposite of what it actually is)

E-Elevator through neutral. 

 

While you will be able to use forward stick to recover from upright spins and back stick to recover from inverted spins, you can also use these same inputs to accelerate the spins...and not only will you accelerate the spin, but you'll also shield the rudder and decrease its authority, potentially enough to prevent spin recovery. Why can you get it away with the forward/back stick sometimes but not others? Order of operations. 

 

For example, here's how I fly an airshow style inverted flat spin: 

 

Enter a conventional inverted spin by stalling the airplane with a negative angle of attack by pushing the stick forward, and at the same time (or slightly before) start applying right rudder (in aircraft with a CW prop rotation). The spin will commence, and it will take a few turns to stabilize, after a turn or two (you're still holding full forward stick and full right rudder), you will then want to simultaneously increase throttle and add right aileron to flatten the spin (think about gyro action of the prop driving the nose up, and adverse yaw caused by ailerons increasing the yaw rate) and the last step to drive the yaw rate even higher is to bring the stick back. At this point you are in an inverted flat spin that is very flat, with very little roll component and a lot of yaw component. Throttle full, the stick in the bottom right corner, and your right foot holding all the rudder she's got. 

 

This is something we use to demonstrate how critical order of operations is to spin recovery, because at this point in the spin, you can actually apply opposite rudder, or move the ailerons around, or (to a lesser extent) move the elevator around and see less change in spin character than you might expect. It's possible to panic and start second guessing what you need to do to recover because you won't see the behaviors you expect if you're not aware of the proper way to leave the aggravated spin mode you've found yourself in. You can sit there pulling the stick back all day long in an inverted spin, and never see the angle of attack come down....first you have to reduce the yaw rate. 

 

To recover: 

 

Power Idle

Stick Neutral

Rudder opposite

Elevator through neutral (ie slightly back once rotation rate has started to decrease, and the spin has begun to develop more roll character, and less yaw character). 

 

Oh and I've done a couple spin sessions in BoS thus far, but really want to check it out again! Thanks for posting that video!

Edited March 5, 2014 by TX-EcoDragon

[Warpig]

This video should help you guys.