use of flaps in the 109

[Sternjaeger]

the thing came out whilst talking of something else, and then I thought about it and realised we haven't seen yet a realistic flap behaviour for the 109. Let me explain...

 

As you know, the deployment/retraction of flaps is done by means of a wheel on the port side of the cockpit, as seen in the video below

 

 

it takes some time (circa 25 half turns/30 secs) for a full deployment on the ground (it might take slightly more in the air), and whilst doing that you can't manage your throttle, so I thought could we implement this? As in, when the flaps are being deployed, the throttle input doesn't work until the deployment is complete?

Edited November 24, 2013 by Sternjaeger

[=LD=Hethwill]

+1

 

This is indeed how the plane worked, so it must be in game.

[6S.Manu]

 it takes some time (circa 25 half turns/30 secs) for a full deployment on the ground (it might take slightly more in the air), and whilst doing that you can't manage your throttle, so I thought could we implement this? As in, when the flaps are being deployed, the throttle input doesn't work until the deployment is complete?

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/1120-anthropomorphic-controls-bos/

 

Edited November 24, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[Sternjaeger]

or perhaps having to hold the button down to see the flap deploying? 

 

It's surprising to see how people don't prefer the anthropomorphic option on that poll. 

[DD_bongodriver]

People only like realism when it's convenient I guess, yet we hear debates about pilot fatigue limits which are just too random and variable to estimate but the 109 flaps which are a completely know quantity are considered inconvenient to model.

[FlatSpinMan]

Won't it be kind of factored into deployment time at least? It should be.

I never played CoD's anthropomorphic controls which I believe attempted to simulate this, but I hear they were unpopular.

Fwiw, I'm against in-built fatigue limits etc. Too many variables to make it feasible, unless you make the whole thing far more of a roleplaying game. Even then, who would pick the stealthy, level 4 demon-mage pilot with no g-tolerance and a stiff neck?

[Sokol1]

In Cl+D™ Bf109 flaps take about the same time to drop/raise as linked video.

Is not axis controlled, is need press and hold a button until flaps drop or raise.

 

The only feedback about how amount of flaps are deployed is looking in marks on flaps - difficult

without "head tracker"...

 

But people can "cheater" the game creating a macro with joystick software that press the

button for certain amount of time, creating the gamey il-2 "Combat/Take off/Landing" flaps...

 

BTW - In the mentioned game I never have problem using the "anthropomorphic" thing...

 

Sokol1

Edited November 24, 2013 by Sokol1

[6S.Manu]

Won't it be kind of factored into deployment time at least? It should be.

I never played CoD's anthropomorphic controls which I believe attempted to simulate this, but I hear they were unpopular.

Fwiw, I'm against in-built fatigue limits etc. Too many variables to make it feasible, unless you make the whole thing far more of a roleplaying game. Even then, who would pick the stealthy, level 4 demon-mage pilot with no g-tolerance and a stiff neck?

 

IIRC initially  the anthropomorphic controls was broken (not surprising, eh); don't know if they fixed it later.

 

Still I think that the sim should simulate other things other than G-tolerance. Let's use standard values. Otherwise why should G-tolerance be included? (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3675463).

 

Anyway, to stay in topic, I agree that anthropomorphic controls were a good idea, but IMO geting them right it's a really time consuming process. And people is going to "cheat" anyway using the software profilers.

Edited November 24, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[Gort]

I don't know, but I guess someone has an opportunity of marketing a flap and trim wheel USB controller!

[Rama]

when the flaps are being deployed, the throttle input doesn't work until the deployment is complete?

This kind of solution wouldn't be "realistic", except if you take as realistic that the left hand is "glued" to the flap wheel for the duration of the flap deployment, and that your right hand can't reach the throttle during the same time.

Take the following example, you're on final, realizing that your flaps aren't deployed, you start to deploy them... then you realise you will not make it and decide (normal decision) to abort landing and so to apply full gaz... your solution above would forbid this (and it's only a quick exemple I can think of).

 

It's all the problems with "antropomorphic modelling", either you make a full human body model (with appropriate control of all the body parts... you'll need 2 or 3 keyboards to achieve this), or you accept to multiply unrealistic events and solution (and corresponding player exploits that will find the way to turn around if they have programmed hardware for input).

 

The best solution would be IMHO the easiest, having controls for:

- flaps down start, flap up start, flap mouvement stop (the deployment taking some time to complete, you'll need the last to stop the flaps current move in case of an emergency). (and no antropomorphic limits included).

[Bando]

What if you're in the real plane. You descend for the landing pattern, you deploy your flaps. While turning this wheel you realize you're going too fast. Hand comes off the wheel, flaps stay at current position, you decrease throttle a bit and start turning that wheel again. It can be done (the throttle-ing down) in a second. So in game, one needs a slow deploying flap mechanism (if it took 30 seconds in real life, it should take that long in game) and that's it. Realism is something the player has to build in for himself, for resources from the dev team going into something that is easy to avoid by people who do not want all that realism, is a waste of effort.

Basically, make the flaps travel so slow that one has to push some button for 30 secs. If someone can macro that to a single click, well, that's their choice then.

My 2 cents

[DD_bongodriver]

in a 109 the pilots hand 'is' permanently on the flap wheel during the deployment, the flaps only move as the wheel moves, your right hand would not be used to reach the throttle because it really should be busy flying the plane, particularly as flaps are being deployed there will be some sort of pitching moment.

 

The real solution is the one we actually already have, hold the button down continuously until desired flap is reached, as long as this button is not mapped on the throttle lever of the hotas this will keep the players hand away from the throttle during this action, which as far as I can tell is precisely how it works in real life.

[Rama]

The real solution is the one we actually already have, hold the button down continuously until desired flap is reached, as long as this button is not mapped on the throttle lever of the hotas this will keep the players hand away from the throttle during this action, which as far as I can tell is precisely how it works in real life.

Which is almost the same solution as the one I propose if the button is mapped on the throttle or on the same device as the throttle (which will probably be the case for most users)

 

In case someone can't map a button on or near the throttle, then the solution I gave is "more fair" to him... since he has the same limitation as the one having mapped a button on or near the throttle.

[DD_bongodriver]

so disable the throttle during flap deployment.....which technically is how the anthropomorphic limitation works.

[Rama]

A good programmer using programmable input devices will have many way to turn around this.

And it's not a good idea, if you map your throttle on an axis, to have the throttle input not relying on throttle position (which will be the case if you disallow input change for some time, whatever the player to with it)... this also will lead to tons of potential exploits.

But if the dev can find a nice and robust way to do it (robust enough for disallow turn arounds), then ok, I'm all for it.

[LG1.Farber]

or perhaps having to hold the button down to see the flap deploying? 

 

It's surprising to see how people don't prefer the anthropomorphic option on that poll. 

We had it in CLOD, it didn't work because allot of sticks and throttles have flickering axes.  So it constantly thinks your using the stick and throttle and just disables half your controls...  Why dont you just build a sim pit?  They only time anyone uses flaps in 109 is landing, taking off with a bomb and just a pinch in tight turns...  So what will it really add to the game? 

Edited November 24, 2013 by 5./JG27Farber

[Matt]

Was it impossible to control the throttle in the 109 with the right hand?

[6S.Manu]

It's really difficult to build a valid solution.

Anyway, is this an important matter? I mean, I really can't remember the last time I deployed the flaps in my 109 except for the landing procedure.

IMO there are many other priorities. They shouldn't make the same mistakes they did in CloD, losing time and resources on meaningless features.

Don't get me wrong It's a nice feature, but there are more important thing at the moment.

Edited November 24, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[DD_bongodriver]

Was it impossible to control the throttle in the 109 with the right hand?

 

Of course it was possible but then which hand is flying the plane during flap deployment?

[Furio]

In good old Il2 we had I16 and Wildcat with manual gear. You need to click a key thirty or so time to have the gear up or down, but you can leave it halfway, adjust throttle and return to clicking… Worked fine, I think.

[Rama]

In good old Il2 we had I16 and Wildcat with manual gear. You need to click a key thirty or so time to have the gear up or down, but you can leave it halfway, adjust throttle and return to clicking… Worked fine, I think.

There was an easy work around: program a stick or throttle key with the amount of needed input.

[Matt]

Of course it was possible but then which hand is flying the plane during flap deployment?

 

Doesn't really matter in this case. It only means, that working the throttle and flap simultaniously was possible and a solution that would make this impossible, would not make it more realistic.

 

In that case, you would need to make one of those three actions (flap/throttle/stick) impossible. Not one of those two (flap/throttle).

 

Anyway, the devs have made it clear enough, that they don't plan to add anomorphic controls and because there will eventually be ways working around this system, i think it was a smart decision.

 

I mean, we are also able to use flaps and throttle simultaniously in the LaGG-3. I never did that, not even while landing, in which case simultanious movement would actually make the most sense. I can't even imagine someone using this alot in combat.

[=LD=Hethwill]

As I read it it has nothing to do with "arms simulation" and as we don't have a clickpit the mechanism becomes more friendly and more automated in the end.

 

Same could be said for the 262. Wonder if in any game it has both engines throttled separately.

[Sternjaeger]

We had it in CLOD, it didn't work because allot of sticks and throttles have flickering axes.  So it constantly thinks your using the stick and throttle and just disables half your controls...  Why dont you just build a sim pit?  They only time anyone uses flaps in 109 is landing, taking off with a bomb and just a pinch in tight turns...  So what will it really add to the game?

 

It adds the fact that it changes the way you fly to a more "faithful to the original" one. The use (and abuse) of flaps would then mirror faithfully the conditions in which pilots operated, e.g. not just a single flicker of a switch, but a proper cranking like in real life.

 

Cheaters are losers anyway, it takes more than just your flap management to be a good fighter pilot.

[Kurfurst]

The keep "flaps down button" pressed worked fine in CLOD. No reason to reinvent the (flaps) wheel.

[Sokol1]

Sternjaeger, on 24 Nov 2013 - 08:43, said:

when the flaps are being deployed, the throttle input doesn't work until the deployment is complete?

This kind of solution wouldn't be "realistic", except if you take as realistic that the left hand is "glued" to the flap wheel for the duration of the flap deployment, and that your right hand can't reach the throttle during the same time.

 

Testing the above situation with "anthropomorphic"* enable in the only game (at least I know) that allow:

 

Find that the pilot left "virtual" hand is not "glued" on flap wheel.

If I drop ~20º of flap and want adjust throttle, I just move my "virtual" hand for throttle handle and adjust.

After, I move the "virtual" hand back to flap wheel and continue drop beyond 20º, meanwhile I decide adjust

elevator trim, to do this leave flaps in 30º move the "virtual" hand to trim wheel, etc. etc.

 

Any drawback? I think no, supposedly is the same what the guy in OP video should do IRL...

 

But,   the virtual ace Fritz the Fox have a macro in his HOTAS TARGET software to drop Bf 109 flaps to 15º  during dogfights by momentarily pressing a HAT in his dual throttle, and at the same instant he decide cut the throttle to force the bandit overshot in the best Hollywood tradition.

 

As result of "antrop'thing" only one command work... "Broken game!"

 

But nobody needs to by afraid:

 

 

Whats the Devs take on the Anthropomorphic Controls?

Well, we're not making them.

 

 

In resume, a Bf109 with  "combat, take-off, landing" (V/F) flaps leave people happy, and  does not favor the "elitists" "Warthog'ians".

 

 

* BTW - I am using a old Saitek Cyborg joystick that spikes very bad.

 

Sokol1

 

 

Edited November 24, 2013 by Sokol1

[Sternjaeger]

yeah, there's always going to be some sore loser that needs to cheat to compensate for his poor skills, but hey, it's only a game, and I'm sure there's no button setting that can magically make their aircraft fly the way they're intended to anyway ;-) 

Edited November 24, 2013 by Sternjaeger

[LukeFF]

or perhaps having to hold the button down to see the flap deploying? 

 

Well, seeing that we have to hold the button down to deploy the LaGG's flaps, the 109 will probably be the same way.

[Fifi]

Well, seeing that we have to hold the button down to deploy the LaGG's flaps, the 109 will probably be the same way.

 

Don't have to hold anything here...mapped to my Warthog cursor 

[III/JG11_Tiger]

Of course it was possible but then which hand is flying the plane during flap deployment?

As mentoioned above you cease flap deployment adjust the throttle then continue with flap deployment, the Spitfire had the problem of the landing gear (I think it was the gear)on the right so you had to hold the stick with your left hand while lowering the gear, awkward but not enough that use of throttle should be removed while flaps are deployed.

 

The most important thing for me at least is ensuring it takes the real time to deploy, so that no bat turns are possible with instant flap deployment.

Don't have to hold anything here...mapped to my Warthog cursor 

yeah mines on the flaps switch on the throttle flick it up or down and wait, but at least there are no instant full flaps.

[Fifi]

yeah mines on the flaps switch on the throttle flick it up or down and wait, but at least there are no instant full flaps.

 

Yes, was meaning this cursor...

[LG1.Farber]

 

* BTW - I am using a old Saitek Cyborg joystick that spikes very bad.

 

Sokol1

 

 

 

 

 

Elitist!  Im still on key board and mouse and I fly online. 

[FlatSpinMan]

Sokol, Farber - I'm with ya, fellas. My equipment consists of Saitek Cyborg.

If this Rift thing works out, I'm all over it though.

 

And I'll have to buy a new stick sometime. Mine spikes, sags limply to the left a bit, but it still more or less works.

[novicebutdeadly]

I am all for realism, so lets also have about a 5 second delay in most Russian aircraft from when you move the throttle, to when something happens. This would take into account the some 6 or so levers that you had to move (which is why alot of soviet pilots flew at max power).

Also have radio failures, pneumatic failures of everything that is pneumatic (yaks), engine component failures and other issues with the La5.

Also take into account that the Lagg and the the Yak1 of this period had carbi engines, so cut out under neg g's.


For the 109, I would say, if the throttle is moved, any flap movement is stopped until there is no longer any throttle movement.

That is a fair trade

 

[Sokol1]

Don't have to hold anything here...mapped to my Warthog cursor 

 

But, if flaps in real plane are operate by pressing and hold a button or turn a roller it should not by mappable in a axis...  and operate as if in a lever.

 

Unless this axis is divide in bands (acting like a buttons) with external software...

 

BTW - Noting against how you use this (after all HOTAS software do "magic"), but how (if) game allow something this in his GUI.

 

Sokol1

[MiloMorai]

And I'll have to buy a new stick sometime. Mine spikes, sags limply to the left a bit, but it still more or less works.

 

Oh dear, that is leaving oneself open to all kinds of comments.

[LG1.Farber]

It adds the fact that it changes the way you fly to a more "faithful to the original" one. The use (and abuse) of flaps would then mirror faithfully the conditions in which pilots operated, e.g. not just a single flicker of a switch, but a proper cranking like in real life.

 

Cheaters are losers anyway, it takes more than just your flap management to be a good fighter pilot.

 

Eh?  Who is cheating?

[Sternjaeger]

Eh?  Who is cheating?

 

someone, somewhere is.. 

[Furio]

There was an easy work around: program a stick or throttle key with the amount of needed input.

 

Il Old-Il2, some sort of exploit was possible anyway. It just required you to press very fast in sequence the “manual gear down” or “manual gear up”. Once the number of keystrokes was reached, in a couple of seconds or so, the gear completed the cycle – going up or down – by itself, with a nice winching sound.

 

In my opinion, what really matters is that the flaps, gear, bomb bay or whatever always take the same – and historically accurate – time to complete the cycle.

[GOZR]

+1 Actually this is very important and to ovoid of easy excessive flaps use..  ( original IL2 ) 

 

Also as I poorly explained in this corner  http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/2587-insights/  the correct way for flaps affect the aircraft with their appropriate flaps of course.