The bug/problem of AI in MP missions

[No601_Swallow]

New thread! ...Because this needs to be discussed.

 

As we all know, the AI can be nice and aggressive towards the player in an SP mission. In a "dogfight" mission, the AI does not go on the offensive towards player-controlled aircraft.

 

This seems to be a bug introduced two or three updates ago.

 

It's a problem for mission builders who use AI aircraft in their MP missions and for players and squadrons who want to fly "coop-style" missions against AI opposition. My own squadron is one of those - not everyone is interested in eternal furballs: sometimes something more planned and/or historically-based is preferrable.

 

I'd like a dedicated thread to discuss this and to collect work-arounds.

 

Here's something from Coconut from a couple of weeks ago:

 

 

I'm desperately trying to provoke my AIs. I have found out that AIs escorting other AIs are deliciously aggressive, I've had them attack me as far as 4km out. Still not ideal, but better then "hey, I'm flying in formation with you, attack me maybe?" that used to be the rule.

 

More seriously, those are my findings:

• Approach an F4 on attack area duty within 1.5 km and it will turn defensive
• Approach an i16 on attack area duty within 300m and it will turn defensive
• Approach an i16 escorted by another i16 within 4km and it will turn aggressive

More experiments needed, but it seems that the cover MCU is the way to go. If we could get a fake invisible indestructible "plane" that we can position in 3d, we could implement patrols that are a bit more effective. All we would have to do make the fighter cover that "egg" and it would do the job. Coupled with a few check zone MCUs, one could make a handful of fighters cover a rather large area.

 

EDIT 1: Here is something that kind-of does the job: dogfight.zip

EDIT 2: Just tested that in a complex mission, and it worked well. I used a pair of i16 to cover a ground objective. I approached flying an 109e7, started chasing the leader, got destroyed by the escort that I had not seen. I have posted groups in this thread: http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14803-groups-sharing-corner/?p=350218

 

I tried something in a mission that I thought partially worked. Instead of using the "Attack Area" MCU, I used the "Attack" MCU, object-linking it with the AI plane and target-linking it with the "fakefield". It was an airstart training mission and the fakefield is fairly close to activation point for the AI plane.

 

Anyway it went offensive towards the first plane to spawn from the fakefield. Which is good! It then ignored any other spawns - which is not so good. I tried to retrigger the "attack" MCU in further variations, but this didn't seem to work -either I wasn't retriggering it or it was having no subsequent effect.

 

Anyway, testing continues... S!

[Urra]

When you say you tried to retrigger did you "deactivate" and "activate" it again?

[No601_Swallow]

When you say you tried to retrigger did you "deactivate" and "activate" it again?

 

No. I target-linked to the "attack" mcu from a timer, but then also target-linked it from another timer which was triggered by an "OnPlaneSpawned" event from the fakefield. I was hoping that this might cause the AI plane to attack the newly spawned plane as well as the previous one. No dice, however, so at best using the "attack" mcu will make the AI attack one and only one aircraft.  Not ideal.

[Urra]

I'm not at my computer, but I would try instead of the "on plane spawned", a single "closer" zone of 50km or less, which would deactivate itself upon entry of a plane and the 3 minutes later activate it again. After the "closer" zone you would link a 2min30sec timer with 3 inputs, 1 for direct deactivate, 1 with 3 second delay timer and an "activate", and the 3rd with 10 second timer only (these all would be between the two) . I would link that 2min30sec timer to the attack Mcu. also, a Complete action might be required going from the "closer" zone to the plane directly. Also the zone would need a signal from something like a begin mission before working.

Edited May 4, 2016 by roaming_gnome

[coconut]

That's an interesting discovery you did, Swallow. I think it shows that technically there's nothing inherently hard about aggressive AIs towards humans in MP, the engine used to manage it, and still has the capability, even if that capability isn't easily accessible. I can only hope the devs understand how important that feature is to us, and that they restore it fully sooner rather than later.

[No601_Swallow]

That's an interesting discovery you did, Swallow. I think it shows that technically there's nothing inherently hard about aggressive AIs towards humans in MP, the engine used to manage it, and still has the capability, even if that capability isn't easily accessible. I can only hope the devs understand how important that feature is to us, and that they restore it fully sooner rather than later.

 

I'm pretty sure the aggressive (attacking) AI was functioning fine until two or three patches ago. It's like something turned it off. I mean, the AI can and will still shoot you down, but it won't attack. It'll always start defensive, as far as I can see. This is completely different to the way the AI works in SP, which seems fine (obviously there are always going to be other problems with the AI - I'm only talking about the most behaviour in general !).

[Urra]

It's interesting that the ai have gone through such high ups and downs, I remember back over a year ago one patch made them so aggressive that even the low setting was impossible to deal with. I haven't as yet seen Hans's reply to coconut so not sure what to expect in the next six months.

[coconut]

 

 

I haven't as yet seen Hans's reply to coconut so not sure what to expect in the next six months.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/7-questions-developers/?p=337029

[Urra]

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/7-questions-developers/?p=337029

Got it. I just don't understand why this was the reply if it works in single player mode. Edited May 5, 2016 by roaming_gnome

[coconut]

 

 

I tried something in a mission that I thought partially worked. Instead of using the "Attack Area" MCU, I used the "Attack" MCU, object-linking it with the AI plane and target-linking it with the "fakefield". It was an airstart training mission and the fakefield is fairly close to activation point for the AI plane.

 

That gave me an idea on a not-completely-but-mostly unrelated topic, namely integrating player and AI flights in MP. I spawn an AI yak with an escort order target-linked to the fakefield. Would the AI escort me when I spawn?

 

The answer sadly is no, weird things happened instead: The AI had the name of my dserver account, the dserver console was filled with error messages about "SIM thread unhandeld message 5", or something similar. The AI flew straight ahead at max speed heading 000.

[Urra]

Swallow, coconut, are you asking a group of two or more aircraft for the attack behavior or just single? Maybe the behavior is different.

[No601_Swallow]

I don't think the number of aircraft is significant. Here's a short youtube clip I've just done. The AI is actually two groups of two.

 

Edited May 9, 2016 by No601_Swallow

[TP_Jacko]

Nice demo Swallow. For the MP version what was the setting on the way point and AI level

[Urra]

Nice demo Swallow. For the MP version what was the setting on the way point and AI level

you mean the levels?, i tried attack zone and way point on low and they seem more agressive than this....

[TP_Jacko]

you mean the levels?, i tried attack zone and way point on low and they seem more agressive than this....

Yes. I was wondering if the way point is on low they would be distracted by any enemy target. The three levels is a bit basic. If its on high it may force the AI to go the waypoint regardless of any threats.

 

I did like the way CloD could adjust the AI levels of skill, aggression, awarenes etc to give control over the AI used in MP

Edited May 11, 2016 by TP_Jacko

[Urra]

Yes. I was wondering if the way point is on low they would be distracted by any enemy target. The three levels is a bit basic. If its on high it may force the AI to go the waypoint regardless of any threats.

I did like the way CloD could adjust the AI levels of skill, aggression, awarenes etc to give control over the AI used in MP

It could also be that my attack zone forces the patrolling aircraft to turn around and come back in my direction after each pass, made mine around 8km.

[TP_Jacko]

I have tried a number of combinations. Nothing seems to work. My last test seemed to get the AI to detect the human pilot after it passed and then was too late to take advantage and let the human pilot escape

[No601_Swallow]

Nice demo Swallow. For the MP version what was the setting on the way point and AI level

 

Jacko, it was a standard Prangsterflight group - waypoint followed by an "Attack Area" MCU. I left the AI on Normal (I think - to be honest I didn't even check). But the AI level makes no difference. The AI attack the player in SP, but ignore the player (unless attacked) in MP.  All the MCUs are on "medium", but then they function just fine in SP - so I don't think they make any difference.

 

Here's the missions, in case anyone's interested. They're super-super-simple (obviously unzip the SP mission to the ...data/Missions folder, and the MP mission goes in the ...data/multiplayer/dogfight folder).

[TP_Jacko]

I widened up the waypoint radius hoping the attackers would spread out further to engage but they seemed to just orbit around the point of origin and quite closely too.

[LFDM-Carleo]

Problem is still here

I try the attack zone  and my IA plane do nothing they just turn around

 

If i put a command cover and they defend their targets well

[TP_Jacko]

Problem is still here

I try the attack zone  and my IA plane do nothing they just turn around

 

If i put a command cover and they defend their targets well

Hi Carleo,

With the command cover do the AI attack first if you fly through the area

I added a post to the bug section, your all welcome to add your support there but continue the discussion here as requested by Swallow

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/22508-appeal-devs-make-ai-attack-human-pilot-mp/

I added a post to the bug section, your all welcome to add your support there but continue the discussion here as requested by Swallow

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/22508-appeal-devs-make-ai-attack-human-pilot-mp/

Edited May 19, 2016 by TP_Jacko

[LFDM-Carleo]

Yes with the command cover the AI attack first  when a caracter is near of the covered target

But due to the covered targed my IA fly near the ground. I'm unable to tell them to fly at a certain altitude

 

You can test it on my multiplayer mission   Normandie Niemen Forces Francaises Libres - Tenir le Front - VVS Only

The 4 Bf109F4  are designated to cover  factory train and "Vehicule Attack Squad"

I let the free Spectate

Edited May 19, 2016 by NNFFL=Carleo

[Urra]

Has anyone tried to spam the plane with the same command several times in several seconds? July looping it on a timer.

[TP_Jacko]

Nope

[No601_Swallow]

The bug's still there, as far as I can tell, gents. The update notes stated that they'd tweaked the AI a little, but this doesn't seem to have made a difference!

[MF-Belgarufo]

32. AI planes in multiplayer will attack human pilots more aggressively.

 

 

Woo Hoo!!! can't wait to try it out

 

 

 

 

[Urra]

Coconut, can you see any difference?

[TP_Jacko]

I think Swallow should re-run his test mission

[No601_Swallow]

Just did it! It works!   Ha ha!

 

The AI react in the same way as in SP, shredding my poor auto-level P-40 with extreme prejudice!

 

(I'd have done it yesterday, but the new game version wouldn't load my mission. I had to re-save it again with new weather...)

Edited August 10, 2016 by No601_Swallow

[No601_Swallow]

I do honestly think this problem has been resolved in version 2.003. Great stuff devs! Rock on with coops for all!

 

(http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/24355-game-version-2003-discussion-bom-release-new-features/?p=376233)

Edited August 10, 2016 by No601_Swallow

[von_Tom]

I do honestly think this problem has been resolved in version 2.003. Great stuff devs! Rock on with coops for all!

 

(http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/24355-game-version-2003-discussion-bom-release-new-features/?p=376233)

 

 

Bad Swallow, bad.  More so as our lovely Prangster is going to be providing the poxy P40 for the next phase of our campaign.

 

von Tom

[Urra]

Just did it! It works! Ha ha!

 

The AI react in the same way as in SP, shredding my poor auto-level P-40 with extreme prejudice!

 

(I'd have done it yesterday, but the new game version wouldn't load my mission. I had to re-save it again with new weather...)

Still can't believe it, freakingawesome.

[MF-Belgarufo]

All my Coop style missions finally make sense!! MP COOP just got a major shot in the arm.

I saw a group of 5 JU-87s AI (target linked to a leader) take on a squad of three humans and their airfield and the teamwork was beautiful. Those stukkas did an excellent job dogfighting  a lot better than i thought they would.

At one point had 10 AI and four humans in icon range with no SPS drop at all and a tick delay of 4.3

All ten AI were running 3km combat areas attacking ground and Air targets.

 

 

Very happy with the performance!!

 

 

THANKS 1CGS!!!

 

[TP_Jacko]

Oooooh this is such good news. The number of times I made a mission before the patch trying to coax the AI to shoot the squad down only to see them swim buy as if on a sunday joyride. So we will really need to keep our heads on a swivel for sunday ops.

 

Big thanks to devs.