How do YOU fly the 190.............NOT an FM discussion.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

How are you flying the 190 now, in game? I am generally not a dogfighter. I like to fight as a pair or I BNZ as a single. This is true regardless of type. The only thing I do more aggressively in the 109 is turning. My general fighting style remains as stated.

 

So, in regard to the 190 the stall has less warning than it used to. I have found, however, that adding a half notch of adjustable stabilizer has made a world of difference. I set it up, to the first tic (down on the guage), which appears to be a half tic in reality.

 

It may be that I've simply gotten used to this iteration of the 190 and I'm not pulling as hard but I actually tried dogfighting in it yesterday and didn't auger in at all with this minor change. I feel as if I could pull harder with the stabilizer adjusted nose up slightly and turning felt more like the previous edition. It is probably a combination of both stabilizer and familiarization. My first few days in the new iteration put me in the dirt quite a bit once I started turn fighting in her.

 

Does anyone know what the adjustable stabilizer should be set to in real life for combat maneuvering? How does it compare to the first tic nose up as indicated?

 

As a side note, I realized I did not get into any of the very high speed descending spirals which seem to induce, for me, the dreaded accelerated stall the most. I will have to test that a bit now.

 

Landings have changed a bit as well. I still cross the wire at about 200-210 but now I level off and let the AC settle into the flare around 185 instead of 180. She drops out of the sky between 178 and 183 and feels much heavier than before. This is only 5kph faster than before and was addressed in a DD. The ground effect has to be used properly or she lands flat and bounces a bit. Before, if you screwed it up a bit you could yank the stick last second and get into the 3 point. Now she just settles flat. I have had no unsuccessful landings but they aren't all as pretty as they were. Probably just something else to get used to.

 

Please DONT make this an FM discussion. There are three or more of those already.

 

This is more of a tips and tricks thread and how you fly what we have.

Edited April 7, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[Gambit21]

Since always and forever when flying any 190 online it's BnZ almost exclusively - come in hot and leverage those guns.

Just like Hartmann, I make sure I'm either higher than everyone else, or if I dive on a hapless Lag or La then I'm faster than everyone else!

I treat it like what it is, a flying gun platform.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

And regarding breaking the stall; remember you have to neutralize the ailerons and get the nose down as in any GA aircraft. The difference is the Fw loves to go inverted and you may be upside down. This means you may have to PULL rather than push the nose down. You have to be very aware of your horizon and be active on the stick. If it is a simple stall break it as usual. If it is acclerated you will probably be in an inverted, tumbling, flat or inverted flat spin. It gets pretty complicated very quickly.

 

Initial rudder work, opposite to the spin as usual, is pretty aggressive but you need to reduce pressure as it becomes effective or you will induce a second stall in the opposite direction.

 

If you have the altitude, it isn't terribly hard to recover once you identify the stall/spin type but it takes time. At low level (800m or less) you usually run out of room to pull out before the recovery is complete. I can break the stall below 800 but then the AC often settles with power.

Edited April 7, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[Luger1969]

Thanks HerrM. Great thread. Very positive and i have already learned some.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I always fly backwards so I can see where I'm going.

 

 

 

 

(sorry)

That, my friend, is a VERY bad stall.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Trimming is very important to get nice and more controllable response. It's second nature for me to trim my aircraft a tiny bit nose heavy so it will drop slightly when releasing the stick while keeping it steady with some little backpressure on stick.

 

That being said, the 190 does not require large changes in trim setting threwout the flight. I don't really mess with trim once in combat and focus on stick input primarily.

 

As for the landing speed 160-165 km/h touchdown and 200-220 approach should be fine. Flaring at too high airspeed won't allow you to set a clean 3 pointer, which you really need to not bounce and eventually crash on touchdown. Flaring at 170 and keeping it at touchdown angle to bleed speed off until it settles on it's own is better. On a side note, in an interview one 190 pilot referred to the landing procedure of the Anton as dropping a 'piano from 7th level' due to it's habbit to instantly fall to the ground once speed bleed off to 165km/h.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

That is the way I used to land but the speed seems to have increased slightly and the stall into the 3 point is above 170 for sure. The approach angle for 210-220 seems higher so the flare and ground effect happens at a different point above the ground as well.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

One tip from the other side to the Fw-190 pilots: a lot of times in my LaGG-3 or Yak-1 I end up with a Fw-190 parked right on my six with a speed advantage, usually due to dweebery on my end. Despite the situation looking like end-game, it's easy to spoil the shot by kicking the rudder and tossing the stick to the side then pulling quick. Most of the time, the Fw-190 pilot is so eager for the kill that they try to correct and correct and correct some more while I am making evasive manoeuvres. After repeated fail attempts, the situation is usually this: both me and the Fw-190 have depleted our speed and sit at about 300km/h. The Fw-190 is probably not on my six any more, and if it is, our planes of manoeuvre are too differet for it to be dangerous and I am about to turn the tables on it. If the fight is happening a low altitude, this is often when the now-desperate pilot tries to recover a position and in the adrenaline of the fight stalls out to becomes a decorative crater in a field.

 

If this sounds like a sh---y engagement, it's because it is. While this is obvious to an experienced pilot with a cool head, it's easy to lose focus when the enemy is two metres away from being a certain kill, so from the enemy to you: if you can't get a shot, climb up, reposition yourself and attack again while retaining your initial advantage. All the roll rate in the world won't save you if you rush the engagement too much. If the enemy escaped your fire, take a deep breath and start over. Altitude > speed > manoeuvre > fire! and then altitude again.

[ITAF_Rani]

Stay fast...hit and run

[Willy__]

For me it was switching to a different mindset. From flying a fighter to a flying brick.

 

 

I don't fly it since the last update, guess why.

 

I don't want to start taking bad habits with it and so "changing my flying style" only because it is now a brick, nope.

 

+1

 

 

@topic:

 

You go and choose the plane that says BF109. The today's 190 is pratically an early alpha 2.2 FW190.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Trimming is very important to get nice and more controllable response. It's second nature for me to trim my aircraft a tiny bit nose heavy so it will drop slightly when releasing the stick while keeping it steady with some little backpressure on stick.

 

That being said, the 190 does not require large changes in trim setting threwout the flight. I don't really mess with trim once in combat and focus on stick input primarily.

 

As for the landing speed 160-165 km/h touchdown and 200-220 approach should be fine. Flaring at too high airspeed won't allow you to set a clean 3 pointer, which you really need to not bounce and eventually crash on touchdown. Flaring at 170 and keeping it at touchdown angle to bleed speed off until it settles on it's own is better. On a side note, in an interview one 190 pilot referred to the landing procedure of the Anton as dropping a 'piano from 7th level' due to it's habbit to instantly fall to the ground once speed bleed off to 165km/h.

.

 

At the first up notch the trim is still slightly biased nose down but she seems more stable on the pullout from a dive and a climbing turn. I can try diving turns offline tomorrow to see if they are improved as well.

[Dakpilot]

Keeping the trim up/down on the hat switch can work quite well on FW190, small adjustments are quick and helpful, you do not need huge changes, but it has real effects

 

Electric trim on the joystick is a bit of a stretch, but the real aircraft had the buttons close at hand to the throttle so it is not too bad

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[DD_Arthur]

I now fly the BoS '190 just like I used to fly Oleg's '190.  Fly high, fly fast with the sun at your back.  Constant dipping of wings to look for contacts below.  Once you spot a target you must plot two things simultaneously; your intercept course and your escape course. 

 

Then its a half roll and down we go.  A quick look all around,  chop the throttle as the speed builds and then total concentration on the target.  Oleg's '190 would give you one or perhaps two pulls on the stick as you approach firing range.  Team Daidalos gave the '190 a bit of an overhaul a few years back which gave you the option of a third pull on the stick - if you were feeling lucky. 

 

When in firing range simply blaze away.  You've got plenty of ammo and if you miss you won't get much chance to use it again on the same victim. As soon as you cease firing firewall the throttle, keep the nose down and head for your exit.

If you know you hit your target then you may permit yourself some very gentle manoeuvring in order to see whats happened to your victim. 

 

Hell, if hes smoking or obviously limping along and the coast is clear then back you go to see if you can blow his brains out with another pass!

 

If you know you missed;  just keep running!

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I now fly the BoS '190 just like I used to fly Oleg's '190.  Fly high, fly fast with the sun at your back.  Constant dipping of wings to look for contacts below.  Once you spot a target you must plot two things simultaneously; your intercept course and your escape course. 

 

Then its a half roll and down we go.  A quick look all around,  chop the throttle as the speed builds and then total concentration on the target.  Oleg's '190 would give you one or perhaps two pulls on the stick as you approach firing range.  Team Daidalos gave the '190 a bit of an overhaul a few years back which gave you the option of a third pull on the stick - if you were feeling lucky. 

 

When in firing range simply blaze away.  You've got plenty of ammo and if you miss you won't get much chance to use it again on the same victim. As soon as you cease firing firewall the throttle, keep the nose down and head for your exit.

If you know you hit your target then you may permit yourself some very gentle manoeuvring in order to see whats happened to your victim. 

 

Hell, if hes smoking or obviously limping along and the coast is clear then back you go to see if you can blow his brains out with another pass!

 

If you know you missed;  just keep running!

 

Not my experience at all. I don't stall fight but she works in the vertical rather well. I never let my opponent get above me on purpose. Blow through and pitch for 300 kph. Turn, rinse, repeat. The yo-yo's are lazy compared to a turn fighter but make the parabola's gentle and you can keep it up for quite a while. As a solo I BNZ keeping the speeds between 300-550 kph, unless diving away to extend and escape, then you can go faster. 

 

As a pair you can work opposite yo-yo's and drive the opponent down while your partner regains his altitude. Not much different than a 109 pair except we don't follow through more than about 270 degrees for the most part. So, less turning and scissoring than a 109 but still plenty effective.

Edited April 8, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[Trinkof]

For me : horizontal hit and run rather than true boom and zoom. I tend to be a satellite around furball, and pick carefully targets, using emergency power as much as possible to keep high speed. That being said, I flew it a lot in the past months, not much since the release of macchi and bf110

 

Full trim up also in any engagement, it helps drastically to reduce the stall in turn. I used to turn almost exclusively with the stabilizer, using the stick to accompany the moves and correct aiming.

Edited April 8, 2016 by LAL_Trinkof

[Venturi]

This is an excellent document and should be read by anyone interested in FW190 characteristics. It is it perfect of course but a good relative understanding might be gained.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/ptr-1107.pdf

Edited April 8, 2016 by Venturi

[Mac_Messer]

If this sounds like a sh---y engagement, it's because it is. While this is obvious to an experienced pilot with a cool head, it's easy to lose focus when the enemy is two metres away from being a certain kill, so from the enemy to you: if you can't get a shot, climb up, reposition yourself and attack again while retaining your initial advantage. All the roll rate in the world won't save you if you rush the engagement too much. If the enemy escaped your fire, take a deep breath and start over. Altitude > speed > manoeuvre > fire! and then altitude again.

Try to escort Stukas` with this tactic.

I now fly the BoS '190 just like I used to fly Oleg's '190. 

That is the exact thing I do now. Additionally would get some wingmen, a 109 escort and everything changes.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I was referring to that specific scenario described above the passage

 

Escort is a whole different beast, ideally done with at least a pair, where regardless of what you're flying your job is to stay with the bombers and cut through any attacks. When escorting even putting yourself on the way of the enemy is a valid tactic if need be, so long as the bombers deliver their load and fly home. That being said if you have enough aircraft to work with you can take a pair (or even one fighter) and launch it onto the enemy from above as a distraction, then gain position. If you present a choice between honouring your attack or getting shot down attempting to reach the bombers, you get the job done either way.

 

But I digress, escort is a favourite field of study of mine that has little to do with Fw-190 tactics within this context

[Livai]

I did fly a very Low Pass over Enemy Airfields with 700 km/h works great to not get hit by the AAA guns. Stall comes if I turn hard under 220 km/h. I not mean the tail spin that the Fw-190 has. Never had this tail spin. Turns great at high speeds. Turning with nose up and climbing at the same time is more better with the Bf-109. Boom & Zoom is the best way for the Fw-190.  I prefer to go with high speed into combat and go out fast as possible from the fight.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Superghostboy

[Livai]

With the Fw-190 you have only two ways to fight

1. Boom & Zoom
2. Hit and run away to comeback later to hit you again...........

It has no high altitude engine so you stay below 3000m. Sure you can climb higher but it takes long to climb up. This Focke is more a Ground Warrior where the Bf-109 is not good at.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Trimming is very important to get nice and more controllable response. It's second nature for me to trim my aircraft a tiny bit nose heavy so it will drop slightly when releasing the stick while keeping it steady with some little backpressure on stick.

 

That being said, the 190 does not require large changes in trim setting threwout the flight. I don't really mess with trim once in combat and focus on stick input primarily.

 

As for the landing speed 160-165 km/h touchdown and 200-220 approach should be fine. Flaring at too high airspeed won't allow you to set a clean 3 pointer, which you really need to not bounce and eventually crash on touchdown. Flaring at 170 and keeping it at touchdown angle to bleed speed off until it settles on it's own is better. On a side note, in an interview one 190 pilot referred to the landing procedure of the Anton as dropping a 'piano from 7th level' due to it's habbit to instantly fall to the ground once speed bleed off to 165km/h.

 

Well I flew some patterns today and you are right. I had gotten used to front line landings with high speed approaches and break turns. I was coming in too hot and too high. I came in more controlled today and much flatter. Approaches were still in the 210-220 range but the throttle setting was higher. The flare still started in the 185 range, settled at 170 with ground effect and touched down at 163-165. I think in the combat zone the landings will probably be somewhat higher but I will modify my approaches slightly.

Turn and stall testing continues. I will get back to you with my findings after I have more anecdotal data but for now the half tic nose up seems to be improving the accelerated stall characteristics slightly. The accelerated stall appears to be stronger in a desceding right turn than any other configuration.

Edited April 8, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[216th_Jordan]

I keep speed up and dictate the fight, manouvering for an advantageous position doesn't need fast turns, rather well coordinated ones. It might be that stall speed is a bit too high, but I'm not experienced enough with this matter to say that. Anyway: I've not found it to be a 'Flying Brick'. It still kicks ass.

[Y-29.Silky]

Unfortunately, with the latest patch, what you say now is true. In previous patch I could do much more than BnZ and Hit'n'run tactics, but now I can barely run away from migs. They litteraly butchered the butcher bird. 

 

All can I say is that a lot a people are no longer flying the 190 after the 1.201 update.

 

You were out running everyone last night. I can't run away from Migs at high altitude which should be the case, but they're usually diving on me with more energy anyways but the 190 can easily out roll it.

One thing I did notice is the 470kph cruise speed on the 190, that is crazy fast, but now, less forgiving.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Yes, speed is not and never has been an issue for me as modeled in-game. If you are losing a footrace in the fighter configuration that is generally a tactical//SA issue.

[Willy__]

 

 

You were out running everyone last night. I can't run away from Migs at high altitude

 

The MiGs were catching up, on the deck. Strange no ? Only thing that saved me is that I was close to the base and a 109 showed up and bounced those migs, which made them leave me. I was leaving everyone behind that day silky, but only after I switched from 190 to 109.

 

I dont know if the latest changes in stall speed and whatknot caused some issues with other areas of the plane, but it seems the case. Anyways, v1.201 fw190 is dead for me and for a lot of people that I know.

[Ace_Pilto]

Fast

[II./JG53Lutzow_z06z33]

I always use a diving attack in the FW 190 I hit then climb away at a low angle to keep my speed up. Then repeat.

[CUJO_1970]

High speed, in the vertical, and as an energy fighter. I extend in high-speed climbs, then it's an exchange of energy for altitude and vice versa.

 

I'm most often in a high-speed climb and attacking from an altitude advantage. Do not get involved in "infighting" beyond very short engagements while in a favorable position (energy/altitude advantage)

 

In many cases if I'm extended from a pursuing fighter, I'll pitch up and burn my energy to convert it to first altitude and then airspeed and this is typically the critical moment while attempting a reversal on the pursuing fighter. It is critical and difficult because you are temporarily low-speed, low energy and you must effect a turn under these conditions while simultaneously not allowing your enemy to achieve a gun solution or altitude advantage on you.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Mostly the same although I never stall her on purpose, except in the vertical to get that last degree of angle on a gun solution. With adjusted trim settings and some more experience I can now turn her almost as hard as I used to without stalling. I was never a knife fighter in her so the new FM probably doesn't affect me as much as some.

[Gambit21]

I now fly the BoS '190 just like I used to fly Oleg's '190.  Fly high, fly fast with the sun at your back.  Constant dipping of wings to look for contacts below.  Once you spot a target you must plot two things simultaneously; your intercept course and your escape course. 

 

Yeah - Oleg's A5 was a bit more capable though if you remember.

You had a bit more leeway in a turn fight with that one than with the other versions.

[Venturi]

I just flew the 190 and found it an excellent boomer and zoomer. I don't think you guys are flying it right. 

[cellinsky]

Off topic and noobish: What means "hamfisted" in this context? Google does not have a translation for this term in my native language.

Thanks, Marcel

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Off topic and noobish: What means "hamfisted" in this context? Google does not have a translation for this term in my native language.

Thanks, Marcel

 

In this context it would mean being rough with the stick/plane and not gentle. Clumsy or un-skillful is probably close

Edited April 11, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Emil

[EAF19_Marsh]

 

I think it was probably a nicer aircraft for landing and taking off especially on poor quality runways compared to the 109. I think that the cockpit design was far more modern and allowed more room to use all of your upper body strength and it's better high speed handling was probably a positive for the same reasons. One thing we don't get in the simulation is the physical demands on the pilot even when not in combat and I imagine a cramped cockpit combined with a stiffer high speed speed handling must have made the 109 a challenge to fly.

 

Yes, there are lots of aspects of the aircraft which they may have appreciated but which do not translate well to a sim

 

I wish I could fight better in it, though; whatever the FM truth of the recent patches, i find it very easy to drop a wing if loading it at all under 300 kph...

[Holtzauge]

While the changed stall limit is certainly important, another just as important issue when flying the current A3 is the increased induced drag since as far as I can tell what’s also changed is how fast you slow down when you pull g’s:

 

I have compared my experience going against the veteran BoS Yak AI now with how it was before 1.201 and you get left behind and loose angles much faster now than you did before as far as I can tell.

 

So when flying the A3 now in 1.201 I find I have to even more than before watch my g-loading since pulling the same way as in the pre-1.201 release bleeds too much speed. That’s also my conclusion from comparing BoS measurements from 1.201 and my C++ simulations : You lose speed quicker than you did before. Either that or they have dialed up the Yak veteran AI turn capability.

 

So in 1.201, you are not only contending with a reduced capability to pull lead before you stall, you are also losing more speed when you do so and consequently the A3 now requires much more work and energy management to be successful IMHO…..

[Venturi]

^ I've recently tested the 190 and all the Axis planes against all of the different Allied planes with a good opponent at the other end.

I still found, even if the above comments are true, that the 190 retained energy far better than just about every A/C I've boomed and zoomed in. Look, for my money the 109 is hard to beat versus a fighter 1 on 1. It's easily the best all-round plane in the game. I can take even a 109E and easily win versus a Yak-1 with a good driver with similar E. It's just that good. In fact, for sheer kick of the pants flying, the 109E is my preference. It's like a big kite and I can throw it around the sky easily - but any 109 is really just a stellar A/C. There's a reason the Germans didn't change their main fighter aircraft, and it's not for lack of good alternatives.

 

But if you're expecting the 190 to be like a faster 109, you're quite mistaken - it's just a totally different A/C. It's fast, retains energy while in a high speed state better than anything else I've flown (compared to 109F, Macchi, La-5, etc - which are burningggg the E at high speeds from a dive) and it climbs really well. It's got a lot more firepower too. It does turns well at speeds above 350kph, moreso as speed increases. You can't use full back stick unless you're very fast (but guess what, this applies to just about every A/C in the game). It doesn't have slats, and it's heavier and more powerful than the 109 - so why do you insist on doing super maneuvers at slow speeds in it? If that's your flying style, use a 109.

 

If you want to see how well it actually does in what it's designed to do (B&Z or interception), try flying a La-5 in a similar way and compare. The La-5 doesn't retain energy as well, it doesn't dive as well, doesn't climb as well, it's losing a hell of a lot of E at any significant turn below 420kph (the slats come out at a moderate 10deg/sec turn at 400kph on the deck!) and its cannon are inferior compared to the 190s. I would still take a 190 versus a La-5 any day of the week.

There's a reason why most people prefer to fly the German birds right now online (or take the Mig, which isn't too bad at B&Z, or the Yak for turn fights). The 1942 Russian birds are a challenge to win with, as they should be in comparison to the 109 and 190. Yes, the Yak turns wonderfully but if you are trying to turn with a Yak you are using your 109 or 190 all wrong. I know the complaints are about the turning/stall of the 190. But after trying it myself, I just don't see where the problem is as of right now.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The 190 A-3 was faster than the Bf-109 on lower altitudes. Which is where fights took heavily place on the eastern front.

 

Also the Fw-190 A-2 showed superiour initial dive acceleration than the Bf-109F while the later only managed to reach up on a higher maximum speed as the dive was continued (see this report: http://www.beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeister/index.php?id=24&L=1).

 

I've not flown the 190 extensively since the update but from my limited online combat expirience it's more difficult losing a Yak or even a Mig once they're 600m behind you. Even running with emergency power you are accelerating marginally faster in a dive and when taking evasive action bleed off your speed quickly as Holzauge mentioned. Not saying it's incapeable but flying the 190 feels somewhat more restrictive now when having to fly it defensively.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I flew it online for almost two hours today. It has definitely changed closer to the pre-patch stall behavior. Not all the way, yo-yo's and pull outs from dives are still bigger arcs than before but better. Behaviour is now somewhere between pre-patch and the D patch. I am pleased to say I didn't stall it out at all today. Trimming before departure is probably helping a bit in this area as well.

 

*Disclaimer: All subjective seat of the pants analysis.

 

and PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC. This has been a really good thread and new pilots can glean a bit of info here if it stays pure.

Edited April 11, 2016 by [LBS]HerrMurf

[6./ZG26_Emil]

I flew it online for almost two hours today. It has definitely changed closer to the pre-patch stall behavior. Not all the way, yo-yo's and pull outs from dives are still bigger arcs than before but better. Behaviour is now somewhere between pre-patch and the D patch. I am pleased to say I didn't stall it out at all today. Trimming before departure is probably helping a bit in this area as well.

 

*Disclaimer: All subjective seat of the pants analysis.

 

and PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC. This has been a really good thread and new pilots can glean a bit of info here if it stays pure.

 

The high speed stall seems to happen easier but I found that recovery seemed easier. 

 

I use 50% pitch sensitivity mainly for flying the 190

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I didn't stall her out today. What is easier? Relaxing the stick to prevent or breaking the stall once it is fully developed?

 

And are we talking simple stall or inverted recovery?