Developer Diary, Part 123 - Discussion

[Trooper117]

Needed that info... thank you!

[HagarTheHorrible]

"Haters gonna hate" (c

One thing is damn strange to me. Yep - they hate. But they still playing it for years while they hate it all this time.

They don't hate at all, they are simply passionate pedants about flight sims, and vocal to go with it,

 

Ironically it's probably a good thing and while the central debates may have been repeated, ad infinitum, it's probably a good thing, that keeps the forums fresh and zingy/edgy. If arguments don't get personal then they are also generally thought provoking and informative, who here hasn't gone and researched something to better inform themselves after something they've read in the forums, often obscure pedantic points.

 

God forbid dull, boring forums.

 

The time to worry about your product is when you DON'T have these so called "haters" hanging about.

[LukeFF]

Han, the info is much appreciated. I'm a "numbers and specs" sort of guy, so I really appreciate the info, especially in regards to engine operating limits and how much the various payloads and other mods affect the plane's weight and balance.

[Yogiflight]

Interesting info in this DD, but what about Ju88?

[HagarTheHorrible]

The rate of fire of German MG cannons is not a little below the average (data)?

Or the current rate is the average?

 

MG 151/15 - Rate of fire ~740 rpm   (ingame 700 rpm);

MG 151/20 - Rate of fire ~750 rpm   (ingame 700 rpm).

Before, or after, synchronization ?

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Interesting info in this DD, but what about Ju88?

 

We have news about it : It's full specs and the list of all unlocks for the plane 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Before, or after, synchronization ?

Synchronizing through a Prop Hub? 

[Boomerang]

Much appreciated, thank you again

[silvergun]

Before, or after, synchronization ?

 

In the Fw 190 it is synchronized, but in the Bf 109?

 

The ShKAS "1800" rpm it is synchronized?

...and the ShVAK "800" rpm it is synchronized?

Edited February 27, 2016 by silverguun

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

These look to be generic guidelines I believe, the ShVAK numbers are the same for all aircraft even though the Il-2 and I-16 fire them wing-mounted while the LaGG-3 and Yak-1 fire them through the propeller hub and the MiG-3 and La-5 fire them synchronised.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The time to worry about your product is when you DON'T have these so called "haters" hanging about.

That sums it up quite well. It's probably difficult to deal with if you are on the recieving end but critique is not bad at all (not talking about the sarcasm / bitterness some people have grown due to slow developments and / or miscomunication in the past).

 

These performence charts are indeed a nice suprise and a good help, BUT as people pointed out there are many ssues if compared to real data.

 

Example: Bf-109 F-2 Turntime at SL = 26.7 sec vs F-4 Turntime at SL = 22 sec. (the F-4 was significantly heavier than the F-2 while retaining a similar P/W ratio so even basic physics tell us that this does not make any sense).

Or that the G-2 has the same stated turntime as the F-4. That does not go with historical accounts (about 19 sec for the F-2, 20.5 for F-4) and is also very questionable ingame - the G-2 is unarguably a heavier and less manouvreble aircraft than the F-4.

 

Same accounts for other performence figures.

 

That said the course of gathering and offering all the data in the dev diary is not bad and undoubtly well appreciated. If they're not "written in stone" and performences are subject to change incase of historical inaccuracies the fact there are some deviations might be easier to look over. The image I assume some people got in here is that those are meant to be historically correct performences confirmed by devs (in which case I'd be very upset, too).

Edited February 27, 2016 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Dr_Molenbeek]

One thing is damn strange to me. Yep - they hate. But they still playing it for years while they hate it all this time

 

And now you will assume your balls and show me a post where i say how much i hate BoS or something, because your title "Project manager" does not give you the right to lie about me even if some kids do agree with you, go.

 

However, if you want to call me "hater" because i hate you, Han, then yes i'm a hater. You and me, a long love story. 

 

2. This forum is provided by 1C-777 Ltd. as a courtesy and its usage is a privilege and 1C-777 Ltd. reserves the right to ban any member temporarily or permanently for any reason at any time. Any penalties listed below for violations of the rules are guidelines only and forum administration may take additional action if they feel it is warranted. Use of the forum is not connected to usage of the game and access to this forum is not guaranteed to users as a consequence of purchasing the game.

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

 

30 day ban on entry

Edited February 28, 2016 by BlackSix

[6./ZG26_McKvack]

Han you guys forgot the 52  

 

I know we cant fly it but it would still be awesome with the same stats above if possible since AFAIK it got a FM on the same level as the other planes. I'd really appreciate it  

[Frisky_Dingo]

 

 

And now you will assume your balls and show me a post where i say how much i hate BoS or something, because your title "Project manager" does not give you the right to lie about me even if some kids do agree with you, go.

 

However, if you want to call me "hater" because i hate you, Han, then yes i'm a hater. You and me, a long love story. 

 

 

[Dr_Molenbeek]

Well, in fact, that was unexpected, to say the least, especially coming directly from a dev.

You know, I read your post numerous times, because I felt my eyes were fooling me. But no, that's it I guess: you basically told me to go f*ck myself.

 

At this point, I'm not even mad (even if I should), because I should say I'm used to it on this forum.

But I can't help but feeling betrayed.

 

I believed in this sim. From the very beginning... Hell, I even bought it in early access ! There were some flaws, but I had hopes. The community seems to be composed by mature people, dev team looks like they were trying their best to release the game in time.

I thought that with "only" 10 planes, with actual technology, the planes were gonna be modelled and feel like real ones.

 

But quickly, I realised that you were only men, you couldn't do everything. So, with my poor means, I wanted to help. By passion, I searched many sources, read many books, did many tests... Only to get this sim even better.

 

Unfortunately, with time passing by, I noticed that a lot of FM observations made by other fanatics were just ignored (even if documented).

And then, BoM announcement. Planes of BoS are not even finished, even with the 5% margin of error, and already you throwed another batch of planes on developpement.

 

I have to admit, from then on, I became rather embittered. And some other forum members weren't helping, derailing many serious topics by acting like childs. I'm not really the incarnation of patience, especially with vocal ignorants, so I guess I may have troubled some of them by being pragmatic with them.

Funnily enough, many of them just replied after your post with approvements. How saddening, how childish, but how predictable.

 

Long story short, seeing issues ignored by the team for a long period of time, only to have some "improvements" like tanks (seriously ?), or some other planes, with some of them broken (Il-2 1941), kinda blunted my faith.

 

I did not give up.

Just as an example, like 4 hours ago, I was doing some more tests on roll rates of various aircrafts (should I say there is nothing about roll rate in your fabulous DD ?), to eventually detect some other issues. And there are issues.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/20679-bos-fighters-roll-comparison/

 

But that's it, I guess. It's over. I give up on this sim.

After everything I did with the will to improve this sim, I'm a "hater".

You gladly took my money, you took some of my time (but hey, you are not directly responsible for this one, it's my fault to be passionnate about something), and now, I guess I'm too vocal, so... Bye-bye Ze_Hairy.

Seeing the reactions, I will not be missed apparently. And I'm okay to not be appreciated by the likes of you.

 

I already see the same ignorants guys saying I'm doing some good drama here. But we both know who was trying to do something for this sim, and who was just playing it.

 

Edited February 28, 2016 by Ze_Hairy

[Sunde]

Its saddening Hairy, i'v been here since the beginning, tho rarely bother to go vocal on the forums, due to the nature of most of the characters on here. 
 Truth is soon there will be none left who will be pushing, testing and criticizing this sim, because those who do, are labeled as stupid fanboys who in secret worship the Führer, or Stalin.
S to you for trying. Hopefully you get the chance to spend your time on something worthwhile instead of this circus.   
 

Edited February 28, 2016 by JG19_Mueller

[DD_Arthur]

Laughable.

[Sunde]

Laughable.

Laughable, and yet saddening. 

Funny how that works, eh?

[DD_Arthur]

Laughable, and yet saddening. 

 

 

 No.  Just laughable.  

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Well, I for one, am sad to see Hairy go. I view his input as similar to Chuck's who we lost as a contributor a while ago. Some of the FM changes have been a direct result of both of those guys in the past. I'm hoping both can get back into the fold after a suitable self imposed exile has passed. The game absolutely requires both testing and critical input to continue moving forward.

 

While I think Hairy gets a little emotionally involved in his arguments Han is also never very diplomatic in his responses to criticism either. I hope both can find some middle ground to their approaches.

[FuriousMeow]

Why is it such a loss when someone has this as their signature:

Bf 109 was "Ze Sµperi0r Fight3r" they say... 

 

It is the same as the one off statement that because a squadron of 190s encountered a squadron of SpitVbs that all of a sudden the 190 should be the penultimate fighter. It was a one off statement, that was never again recited. Then ignoring that the 190 was delegated to ground attack on the Eastern Front, the one we are currently over, because it was not the best fighter at the altitudes that the combat over the Eastern Front is conducted at.

 

The 109 was a better fighter on the Eastern Front.

 

Of course, the 190 is not without its capabilities. It has the firepower, it has speed, and most importantly - it can get to high altitude and dive down without losing capable control while the 109 stiffens up like a brick at high speeds - that makes the 190 a very great fighter in the hands of those that know what they are doing. Without surprise, that's exactly how history records it.

Edited February 28, 2016 by FuriousMeow

[Wulf]

"Haters gonna hate" ©

When we have decided to post this data we were in full understanding that it will cause a great "butthurt" for 10-15 community members whose names are good known

 

One thing is damn strange to me. Yep - they hate. But they still playing it for years while they hate it all this time

 

Anyway, objective was not butthurt of haters, objective was to provide some additional understanding how to fly and how to fight in our game. These numbers are important for that.

 

 

I'm not sure if this is a classic case of  'shooting the messenger' or just some ham-fisted attempt at discouraging dissent.    Whatever the motivation, it's pretty damn sad.  

 

This type of fortress mentality won't win the argument for you.  It just gives people the impression you have something to hide.  Instead of driving customers away by describing people as haters and wreckers when they are demonstrably anything but, maybe you could try engaging with them for once. 

[Wulf]

 

Why is it such a loss when someone has this as their signature:

Bf 109 was "Ze Sµperi0r Fight3r" they say... 

 

It is the same as the one off statement that because a squadron of 190s encountered a squadron of SpitVbs that all of a sudden the 190 should be the penultimate fighter. It was a one off statement, that was never again recited. Then ignoring that the 190 was delegated to ground attack on the Eastern Front, the one we are currently over, because it was not the best fighter at the altitudes that the combat over the Eastern Front is conducted at.

 

The 109 was a better fighter on the Eastern Front.

 

Of course, the 190 is not without its capabilities. It has the firepower, it has speed, and most importantly - it can get to high altitude and dive down without losing capable control while the 109 stiffens up like a brick at high speeds - that makes the 190 a very great fighter in the hands of those that know what they are doing. Without surprise, that's exactly how history records it.

 

 

 

Where in God's name do you get this tripe?    The 190 wasn't "delegated' to ground attack  ... because it [wasn't] the best fighter".  It was given a ground attack role because the existing dedicated ground attack aircraft were found wanting and the 190, unlike the 109, had the versatility to step up to the plate and fill the void. 

 

You'd do much better if you'd just stick to the facts.

[HagarTheHorrible]

I'm sorry FuriousMeow but I agree with Wulf, what you wrote is bollocks. 190 encounters with Rubarbing Vb's on the Western front probably had more similarities to the situation in the East than differences. It was exactly were the early 190 excelled.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Synchronizing through a Prop Hub?

 

Don't ask me, I don't know nothing, I was just throwing it into the ring, you know, just in case.

[BraveSirRobin]

It's amazing to me that some people think that treating the developers of this game with complete contempt will not have any consequences.  Good riddance to Ze_Hairy.

[ST_ami7b5]

    

 

...

 

That (facepalm) was NOT meant for you, Swallow.

It was just my opinion on the direction this debate was turning into.

I should have made it more clear, sry..

  

[F/JG300_Gruber]

"Haters gonna hate" ©

When we have decided to post this data we were in full understanding that it will cause a great "butthurt" for 10-15 community members whose names are good known

 

One thing is damn strange to me. Yep - they hate. But they still playing it for years while they hate it all this time

 

Anyway, objective was not butthurt of haters, objective was to provide some additional understanding how to fly and how to fight in our game. These numbers are important for that.

 

 

With all the respect Han,

 

I don't know who is in the 10-15 people list (and it's none of my business) but the way you mention them makes me think that once they fell onto that list, for a reason or another their contribution is not worth reading or taking seriously. To me, people like the Ze Hairy are good contributors to the forum and if their complains about FM may not be always justified (I'm not competent enough to judge), at least they stirr the pot and bring up a lot of sources to backup their claim.

 

 

Reading a lot on here (at least since I joined the community in early 2015), I remember a few of your replies saying that "everything is correct" or "FM won't be tweaked again" to finally a few month later seeing some adjustments (flaps for example) on several planes. In the end you admitted that the FM needed adjustments and did them, but told the whole community that they were wrong in their complain for months, sometimes with a few others players commentary like the very popular "If you don't like it build a sim of your own". 

 

There is a Developer Assistance section in this forum, where there is sometimes clashes (that are going too much personal I agree) but also pertinent stuffs about flight models, and some are taking a lot of their time to look for sources, test the game and write long reports. But there is not even an evidence that some people in the dev team actually look at what's there, and if they do, they never reply to anything in there, when even a simple "we've read it and will look into it later" might have been enough to keep the discussion in a much more pacific fashion.  I can't read russian but I see on the russian forum that even in the FM discussion part, there are much more green answers than here.

 

 

So I understand that peoples, that may be more or less patient, may end up warmed up because of this, and I think "haters" have much more problems coping with the way you communicate with them than with the inacurracies of some points in the flight model department. And I think what made them keep playing is that despite BoS having be officialy released and BoM about to be, both are still work in progress and a lot of improvements are being worked on. So there's hope that in the future that some of their complain will be looked upon and possibly taken into acount to improve the game. 

 

I know you also had so PM exchanges with some people so I don't know how much personal things have become, but from what I can see on the public part, with a bit more communication you may had been able to halve the amount of people in your haters list. And prevent some others to become haters themselves (or at least sceptical customers) seeing how haters not being listened at while they are reporting problems in the game that look justified from a non-expert point of view.

 

 

Speaking for myself, I enjoy the sim and it's community a lot, but I also look very forward to see the oncoming improvements as well, because I feel they are much needed (and not only FM adjustments).

 

Edited February 28, 2016 by F/JG300_Gruber

[II./JG77_Manu*]

"Haters gonna hate" ©

When we have decided to post this data we were in full understanding that it will cause a great "butthurt" for 10-15 community members whose names are good known

 

One thing is damn strange to me. Yep - they hate. But they still playing it for years while they hate it all this time

 

Anyway, objective was not butthurt of haters, objective was to provide some additional understanding how to fly and how to fight in our game. These numbers are important for that.

 

The probably most helpful game tester in the last year, providing tons of both data, sources (btw way more then i have ever seen from you, dear Devs, "official" tester, community manager or what ever), and doing serious aircraft testing is now called "hater" from a Dev himself. I don't believe my eyes. I seriously don't believe my eyes. Sounds like a small child, that is offended, because someone discovered that it cheated in some game. Not responding to his accusations (which are funnily all correct), but just throwing insults on him, in front of the whole forum community.

"They hate".

That' what's called constructive criticism in these times? This Sim had, and still has multiple FM flaws from the very beginning of it's existence. Trying to dismiss this is blatantly ignorant. Just a week ago the flaps of the Russian fighters have been fixed, Ze Hairy and me were alongside the so called "haters" (like this world already), to point out this fault regularly. The point is, in fact, and i am really sorry that i have to speak that out loud,not to hate, but to get people's attention onto this issue. With people i don't mean the regular mob, whose comments and insults are inevitable, but people who really have the expertise and background (aka aeronautical engineer), to build a case (which is in case of the Yak flaps, while overly obvious that they were wrong, not easy), and send it to you Devs, to get the issue fixed. What happened? It got fixed in the end.

I seriously don't know why you feel so offended, Han. If you can't stand criticism at all. Your regular comments alà "FMs are all correct!" you could hear already a year ago would point in that direction.

But your answer to Ze_Hairy is unprofessional, and completely unacceptable. 

 

And now call me hater too, give me a 30 day Ban, or do whatever. In the end it's nothing else then censorship of critics (seems familiar )  I don't care. I am out of this nonsense. That was one step to far.

 

 

-snip-

 

I am as appaled as you are. 

As for the people's attacks and rants towards you, you couldn't care less. Anybody who is unbiased, unprejudiced, and has a certain level of mind knows what's going on here. Luckily there are way more, then you see, they just don't wanna get involved and drawn into this mud fest. As for the Mob, throwing stones at you (and probably soon at me)..nothing has changed since the Medieval.

A person throwing around biased misinformation basing on faulty 5th grade math, in a serious debate, getting 6 likes should tell us enough about that community. 

Out

Edited February 28, 2016 by II./JG77_Manu*

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The thing is real "haters" can't bother less to post here in the forum. If they really "hated" the game they'd  just obandon it, post lots of negativie critique in other boards and forums, make harsh You Tube videos showing each and every flaw to credit it as bad, give the game ridiculously bad scores on nominated gaming sites (sounds familiar?) ect. That's quite the contary to those making very time consuming tests, collecting & comparing to historical sources and making all the math behind it only to find a plausible proof that can help the devs to correct an significant flaw and making the game better.

 

As sby who knows the FM department well I very much appreciated any FM tests done and shared here on the forum since I know how much time and dedication need to be spend even on simple things like speed or roll charts. That's not compareable to "I just fired the game up and noticed..." suff that's also partly floating around the forum here and there. It's real work.

 

Hairy was such a contributer and one of only 2 guys who managed to accomplish improvements on the Fw-190 (not counting myself with the tailwheel adjustment i sugested) and without getting too personal it's a real shame driving such productve people away.

 

Sure, not everyone cares for historically correct performence or aircraft handling as long as they can takeoff and shoot (a little over the top) and those probably consider a loss of contribution from the ones like Hairey as little, but there is also a great bunch who will disregard the game as a consequence of historical inaccurancies (that does not include active players only but also people from other sims).

 

That said I very much enjoy BoS currently and hope the FM department can manage to sort things out in time (as indicated in DD120).

[MK_RED13]

Are you kidding me? Ze_Hairy got banned?

[ST_ami7b5]

Are you kidding me? Ze_Hairy got banned?

see the red letters

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/21249-developer-diary-part-123-discussion/page-3?do=findComment&comment=336419

[TWC_Ace]

"Haters gonna hate" ©

When we have decided to post this data we were in full understanding that it will cause a great "butthurt" for 10-15 community members whose names are good known

 

One thing is damn strange to me. Yep - they hate. But they still playing it for years while they hate it all this time

 

Anyway, objective was not butthurt of haters, objective was to provide some additional understanding how to fly and how to fight in our game. These numbers are important for that.

You risked alot with this post. But I 100% agree with you. However, there are times when a bigger part of community should be listen/(from you). Yak flaps is one good example. You cant go on stubborness and you need to rethink some of the stuff which is maybe ok on paper (docs) but somehow is displaced in term of relative performances amongst planes.

thanks for you post

Edited February 28, 2016 by blackram

[JtD]

Can anyone try a La-5 and run it the speeds Han posted for 5 minutes without overheating?

 

Why does the heavier LaGG-3 have a higher ceiling than the Yak-1, which is featuring the same engine, is lighter and less draggy?

[Falco_Peregrinus]

Thank you for the data posted. I am sure this will help us in making confrontation between kites for sure.


Buuuuut....

 

Macchi C.202 turn times

Maximum performance turn at sea level: 24.5 s

Maximum performance turn at 3000 m: 31.1 s



WTH happened here with the Macchi? 

A 175 kg/m wingloaded aircraft at 2,9 tons, famous for its close combat agility is outturned by a full 4 seconds by a 3,4 tons mig3 with 195 kg/m wingload, with even a lower power-to-weight ratio?

 

and the 109 F-2 also is very suspicious...

Edited February 28, 2016 by Ioshic

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

WTH happened here with the Macchi? 

A 175 kg/m wingloaded aircraft at 2,9 tons, famous for its close combat agility is outturned by a full 4 seconds by a 3,4 tons mig3 with 195 kg/m wingload, with even a lower power-to-weight ratio?

Should have read the thread before. It's a "maximum" turn time at a given speed range - 280 to 300 kph.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/21249-developer-diary-part-123-discussion/?p=336228

 

As far as I'm concerned ... I've never been outturned by MiG-3 in my Macchi. Were you outturned ? 

[JtD]

"Haters gonna hate" ©

The guy's apparently got a better idea about some aspects of the flight model than you do, and just because you resort to name calling, issues that have popped up won't go away.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Didn't want to get involved but here goes nothing: you are all being a bunch of drama queens picking on a joke. Seriously. The whole semantics there is based on that "haters gonna hate" - a joke, people. Simmer down, Sally.

[LLv24_Zami]

I think everyone should just calm down. Simmers are passionate people, that`s the way it always has been. And I mean devs and customers by this, we all are simmers.

 

There`s no perfect game in the world(except Master of Orion 1  ) so there always will be debate. Especially about FMs. I think it is good that there are guys who have patience to test things over and over. And make questions. 

 

As I said before, your effort is appreciated. There has been impressive patches lately and it will continue from what I have seen. There are decisions by devs that I don`t agree(mostly the campaign) but I would not play the game for one minute if I don`t like it. And I have played hundreds of hours 

Edited February 28, 2016 by Zami

[Falco_Peregrinus]

Should have read the thread before. It's a "maximum" turn time at a given speed range - 280 to 300 kph.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/21249-developer-diary-part-123-discussion/?p=336228

 

As far as I'm concerned ... I've never been outturned by MiG-3 in my Macchi. Were you outturned ? 

 

Still it is a weird figure, probably just becuase it refers to a single speed setting (which could be optimal or not for each specific plane).

Especially the 109 F-2 is weird... how could it turn su much worse than the F.4?

 

Thank you for pointing me out to that post Hiromachi, anyway.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Ioshic