Bouncing thr Lagg3

[sbarnfield]

I have been trying and trying and trying to land the Lagg3 without bouncing it, but with no success and to be honest I'm running out of patience, so this is a final attempt to take advantage of the superior knowledge of the wider community before I kick this game into touch.

 

Can someone please explain in a bit more detail the procedure they follow for flaring the Lagg3, particularly to avoid runway departure and getting the damn thing to settle on three wheels simultaneously without bounce? I guess timing and the shape of the glide slope is important so any advice on that would be gratefully received.

 

(I think I can handle the post touchdown twitchiness of this aircraft as a lot has been written on this topic in the forums!)

 

I studied aeronautical engineering at degree level and work in the aerospace industry, so I'm familiar with the concepts, what I'm missing is the advice from experienced pilots as how to handle this critical bit of the flight phase, which I guess in reality would be passed down from experienced pilots to greenhorns by word of mouth.

 

Thank you comerades!

[LukeFF]

[sbarnfield]

Looked at all of the Tutorials but nothing seems to focus on the flare part of the approach in detail, what's the optimum flare height, what throttle setting and descent rate to use. The field lengths are (obviously) pretty tight. and with any bounce I run out of field length for stopping.

 

Basically nothing shows the flare n sufficient detail.

[DD_Arthur]

Hello sbarnfield. Check out this thread;

 

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20882

[Dakpilot]

I find touching down at any speed more than 150kmh will produce bounces, use throttle to control altitude on glide path and attitude to control speed, standard +-3 degree glide path , 1000ft/300m base turn at 45 degrees from end of runway trim it nicely for 215kmh on final reducing to 200 short final with full flap aim just short of end of runway and flare gently, manage descent all the way down with throttle, cutting at flare and apply 10% after secure touchdown to help with directional control

 

The Lagg-3 was noted by its pilots for its generally unfriendly and non forgiving handling during the landing phase, in game it definitely needs a lot of practice doing circuits to become familiar  and confident of doing a good landing each time, it is quite heavy so if you touch down even a little too hard (main wheels) with too much speed the tail will drop from inertia, CofG being behind the mainwheels,  AoA increases and you will fly off again, with little option other than doing a go-around or go off the end of the runway when you have managed to get it all under control 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Sokol1]

My way:

 

[DD_Arthur]

I find touching down at any speed more than 150kmh will produce bounces, 

 

 

Yeah, I think that is the key.  Clumsy bastard landing in FW190 but still no bounce!

 

[sbarnfield]

Thanks all for your replies, but I think I'm through with this, just far too frustrating and not worth the time I'm spending on it for no return. Waste of money in my opinion.

[coconut]

Maybe one more piece of advice before you give up: try with 50% fuel tank first. Much easier than with 100% full.

[sbarnfield]

Tried that, made little difference.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

A bounce usually indicates too much airspeed.  Here is how I land the LaGG and most other aircraft.  Bounces, if any, are minimal.  As they say, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

Start approach on final at 300-400 meters, full flaps (only the Pe-2 is different with only 25%), gear down, dropping airspeed to just above stall speed, for the LaGG I use +/- 200kph (usually slower is better), nose pointed at end of runway.  Most of the time I come in with throttle idle or 10%, using throttle to increase or decrease altitude if necessary.  Use your stick to control airspeed.  Start the flair a meter or two above the ground, which should be close to when you cross the runway, cutting throttle and pulling the nose to level flight.  Keep the plane in level flight and it will start to bleed airspeed and as it does it will start to lose altitude.  Once you see it starting to sink, counter it by pulling back on the stick gently, and maintain the same altitude.  Your attitude will change to nose high.  Continue this process until gravity finally takes total control and the plane sinks onto the runway, usually in a three point landing.  Bounces are minimized due to the very slow speed on touchdown.  The better you can judge your height, the closer to the ground you can flair and the final touchdown will have no bounce whatsoever.  (Crosswinds may require some throttle with crabbing with a two wheel touchdown.)  After touchdown, keep the plane going straight down the runway using quick rudder taps only at first (pick something to check against, a cloud, etc.).  Lose some speed, then start tapping breaks.  You can roll it out or just use full breaks to come to a stop.  No ground loop at end.

 

Go into Quick Mission (solo) at 400-500 meters and practice over and over until you get the feel.  Don't give up the game over this.  This sim has the closest feel to actual flight I have experienced.

Edited January 30, 2016 by 12.OIAE_Stick-95

[sbarnfield]

Thanks for your advice but this is beyond my capabilities.

[Dakpilot]

The Lagg is one of the harder aircraft to land, try getting the hang of the Yak first 

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[andyw248]

My way:

 

 

The first landing (or should I say "the first three landings"  ) is about the best illustration I've ever seen of what's causing bounces: Each time the tail bumps down the wing gains lift and the airplane takes off again. Too fast, I'd say - as you explain speed needs to be pulled out until the plane won't fly anymore.

[Ace_Pilto]

I just resigned myself to the fact that I can't land anything without bouncing. If it makes you feel any better, I've never seen anyone else land without bouncing either.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

If you think the LaGG bounces bad, try landing the P-40.  You'll then think the LaGG is a cake walk.

 

BTW, What joystick are you using?

[andyw248]

Bouncing - There are really two reasons why aircraft bounce:

• Landing too fast. This happens in the majority of cases, for example in the first sequence of Sokol's video above. Touching down too fast means the main wheels hit the ground first, while the tailwheel is still up in the air. The downward momentum makes the tail go down very fast, which in turn increases the angle of attack. Because airspeed is too high the combination of airspeed and increased angle of attack makes the aircraft take off again, but only for a few seconds because throttle is on idle, so after a few seconds the aircraft falls down. Root cause: airspeed to high. Remedy: keep the aircraft flying at one foot above the surface as long as possible so that it looses airspeed and settles down at 150 kph (no faster than that; for the 109 it's more like 145).
• Too little gear damping. This happens when you keep the aircraft above the surface too high, let's say 3 feet, and when it can no longer fly it falls down hard and bounces back. Some aircraft are very "springy" and have very little dampening, for example Cessnas and other types with spring or bungee gear; this leads to a "slow motion bounce". Some aircraft are quite stiff, for example the Piper Cherokee line of planes; they experience hard bounces but they still bounce. The fighters in BoS/BoM have all stiff gear - the gear does not absorb much of the impact. There might be a little room for improvement here, after all the BoS/BoM fighters have much longer struts than a Cherokee. But for us this means: Root cause: flaring too high. Remedy: flare no higher than one foot above the runway. Upon takeoff, memorize the angle at which you see the grass; apply that when flaring.

Trivia and opinions:

• Bouncing happens in all kinds of aircraft. Most people that learn to fly in Cessnas will bounce many times. Navigate to YouTube and search for "Cessna bouncing" to convince yourself. Most of the time bouncing a Cessna is harmless since there's no ground loop. However, I've personally seen a Cessna bounce, then come down frontwheel first, break the frontwheel, come off the runway, hit a ditch, and flip over; luckily the (student) pilot was able to walk away from the accident.
• Bouncing a Cessna is caused by the same issue as bouncing a LaGG: Coming in too fast.
• All fighters in BoS/BoM are hard to land. You follow the rules - you land well. You don't follow the rules - you bounce. You're 5 kph above touchdown speed - you're screwed
• I don't really think the LaGG/La are harder to land than the rest of the pack. It's just that they don't have any tailwheel locking which leads to the additional problem of ground looping which makes people more frustrated than in the other types.

Ground looping:

• All taildraggers have a tendency to ground loop.
• Most of the aircraft in BoS/BoM have lockable tailwheels so the problem is mitigated.
• Some aircraft in BoS/BoM have spring centered tailwheels; in them the problem is mitigated too.
• The LaGG/La have free castering tailwheels so we experience applied physics at its best. Mitigations:
  • Walk the rudder pedals. I can't even imagine how this could be done without pedals but that might be just me. Or try automatic rudder.
  • When walking the rudder, be fast. You're not going to be fast enough after having consumed 5 beers (I can tell from own experience  )
  • Apply brakes only when the rudders are nearly centered. In the LaGG/La brake power is applied according to rudder position, so if you apply brakes while you have also deflected your rudder to one side you pretty much force the aircraft to ground loop.
  • Apply only small amounts of brake. The brake handle on the stick works similar to a bicycle brake - pull it a little brake a little; pull it a lot brake a lot. So, map your hand brake to a lever on your equipment that can handle gradual input. I have successfully used the brake lever on my rudder pedals for this.

Trivia and opinions:

• All in all I think ground handling is very well modeled for experienced pilots or for those that are ready to put as much effort into it as the real world pilots did.
• Gear damping / springiness: I believe there is some room for a flight model improvement here. I see videos of WWII fighters that are landed at the correct airspeeds, and their gears are not "reflected" by the surface as much as the gear of the BoS/BoM aircraft. But - don't expect your landings to become much better if they change damping in the FM; like I said most bouncing occurs because people are coming in too fast, and that's not going to change by fixing the damping.

Stabilized approach:

• A lot of folks fly very flat approaches. This makes it very hard to flare because flat approaches have to be flown with way too much power. This means that the flare is not just a change of angle of attack, but also a dramatic power change, with lots of opportunity to mess things up.
• The benefits of flying a steep approach at the correct airspeed are:
  • You can see the airfield over the cowling.
  • Power can be very low, so only a minor adjustment is required when flaring.
  • It is much easier to adjust airspeed with the stick (ie. flying at the attitude that gives you 200 - 205 kph), and sink rate by small power changes.
• Just fly your downwind leg at 500 m above field elevation and make your final relatively steep - that will give you plenty of opportunity to come in on speed (~200 kph in the Russian fighters, ~190 kph in the 109), and to flare with relatively small power reduction.

Edited February 1, 2016 by andyw248

[Ace_Pilto]

I'm surprised someone with so much to say wouldn't mention the base obvious when it comes to the LaGG and generally all taildraggers.

 

Increase throttle a touch after touchdown, you can't use the rudder without airflow!

[VBF-12_Snake9]

Not hard once you know the secrete. Flair until you almost stall with zero throttle. Once you touch down hold stick back set throttle to 20 percent and slam and hold the brakes. Work the rudder and only kill thottle once you have come to a stop. Don't know or care in real life, but works like a charm in this game.

 

Forgot for ice the brakes is alittle different. You have to be easy on ice.

Edited February 1, 2016 by 12.OIAE_Snake9

[andyw248]

 

 

Increase throttle a touch after touchdown, you can't use the rudder without airflow!

 

Indeed, when fuel is down to about 30 - 40%, and with a little throttle during the rollout the tendency to ground loop is much easier to handle.

[TP_Silk]

Maybe this isn't a real-world type way of landing, but I find that trimming to full tail-heavy and keeping just a tiny bit of throttle open just before touchdown means that I can often fly it onto the runway. Takes a little getting used to though.

 

I also suspect that any real flying instructor will cringe at this