How to effectively discourage people from flying Ground Attackers in MP Servers

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

1. Lots of AAA at Ace Level

2. Limit Number of available aircraft per Pilot. 

 

(on DED Experimental Server)

Edited January 9, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

1. Set AAA to Ace Level

2. Limit Number of available aircraft per Pilot. 

 

(on DED Experimental Server)

 

How to limit the vulching everybody complains about:

 

1. Set AAA to Ace Level

2. Limit Number of available aircraft per Pilot.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

How to limit the vulching everybody complains about:

 

1. Set AAA to Ace Level

2. Limit Number of available aircraft per Pilot.

Vulching Normal Ground Targets? What Madness is this?

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Vulching Normal Ground Targets? What Madness is this?

 

"How to limit the vulching everybody complains about:

 

1. Set AAA to Ace Level

2. Limit Number of available aircraft per Pilot."

 

Through deduction this translates to the following: "To limit the vulching everybody cries about AAA has a high skill level and aircraft have a deployment limit."

 

Can't really have it both ways... 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Space_Ghost

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

But why does the AAA at normal Depots and Artillery have to be Snipers?

It basically means that you can't fly Bombers and Attackers anymore, so you are forced to fly Focke Wulfs with 500kg Bombs to get somewhere even close to the target and do damage. 

The Slower Aircraft just explode once they get close. You won't imagine how often I get shot down winding down in a 600kph spiral dive in Pe-2s and Bf110s or Stukas. 

The Il-2 has no purpose anymore except for being almost stationary target practice. 

 

The Ace AAA was seen as a solution to the Problem of Fw190s raping ground targets, so now they are the only ones that are even able to reliably get through. It was a shot in the goalies back. 

Edited January 9, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Feathered_IV]

1. Set AAA to Ace Level

2. Limit Number of available aircraft per Pilot.

 

(on DED Experimental Server)

If you really want to effectively discourage people-flying ground attack aircraft, you'd be best off creating your own server that offers fighters only. That way you and your friends can have as many willy jousts as you like.

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

Irony. It is a difficult concept. It is not logical.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

But why does the AAA at normal Depots and artillery have to be Snipers?

It basically means that you can't fly Bombers and Attackers anymore, so you are forced to fly Focke Wulfs with 500kg Bombs to get somewhere even close to the target and do damage. 

The Slower Aircraft just explode once they get close. You won't imagine how often I get shot down winding down in a 600kph spiral dive in Pe-2s and Bf110s or Stukas. 

The Il-2 has no purpose anymore except for being almost stationary target practice. 

 

The Ace AAA was seen as a solution to the Problem of Fw190s raping ground targets, so now they are the only ones that are even able to reliably get through. It was a shot in the goalies back. 

 

 

My group and I fly almost exclusively IL-2's and Pe-2's, and only on DED Experimental, and this includes airfield attacks.  I won't say the casualty rate from AAA is zero, but we do well.  Saying the IL-2 is like a stationary target is total garbage.

 

 

Everyone knows that the ace AAA is to compensate for relatively low numbers of emplacements at airfields due to unit limitations.  I assume that one can't have two types of AAA A.I. running at the same time - One for airfields, one for normal targets.  So this is the best that can be done with the limitations at hand.  The day that an entire team won't pick the fastest, most cannon heavy fighters and sit on an airfield vulching it until the server empties is the day that it might change.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

We have a roughly 50% return rate after a 2 passes raid on most targets in four to five Bf110s. And these are quick passes from 2500m with a very sharp and short approach and quick reproach. 

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

how to turn a server into a airquake real fast, DED expert server did.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

how to turn a server into a airquake real fast, DED expert server did.

Not that I disagree, I just don't comprehend the point you're trying to make. What's an Airquake?

[Fidelity]

Not that I disagree, I just don't comprehend the point you're trying to make. What's an Airquake?

There is an old FPS arena game called "Quake" and it was very fast and action packed.

 

I agree about the AA gripes. I never make it back to the airfield with both engines still running on this server. I think the objectives might have more AA than the enemy airfield. It's ridiculous.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

We have a roughly 50% return rate after a 2 passes raid on most targets in four to five Bf110s. And these are quick passes from 2500m with a very sharp and short approach and quick reproach. 

 

 

It can be really hairy, sure.  IL-2's are more robust than their twin-engine cousins, so that helps.  Regardless, unless you have something to say to the reasons for why it is the way it is this discussion is academic and pointless.  I agree that the AAA skill level is extreme, but...

 

how to turn a server into a airquake real fast, DED expert server did.

 

 

If DED expert is airquake, every other server is pong.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Silas

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

It can be really hairy, sure.  IL-2's are more robust than their twin-engine cousins, so that helps.  Regardless, unless you have something to say to the reasons for why it is the way it is this discussion is academic and pointless.  I agree that the AAA skill level is extreme, but...

 

It is the way it is because the Fw190s with 500kg bombs are the inaircraftination of literal rape. They were able to rape an entire map in very short time and at high speed and were almost invincible. 

So the AAA was strengthened to better deal with fast aircraft, and because more complicated stuff like tanks came along  it was reduced in numbers and buffed into a ridicolous Arcade Level killing machine so as not to hurt server performance. 

 

The Result is that now really only Fw190s and Il-2s have a reliable chance to even get to their target and drop their ordonance before being blown to smitherines. Attacking the ground is Suicide and no Airforce commander would have sent as much as a white dove out if the air defenses of their enemies had been as strong.

It's a waste of time really, time you could spend idling around at 8000m casually fighting others for no reason at all. Just boring Contrailjocks tumbling around senselessly because they are ultimately of no importance to anything. 

 

Edit: The P-40 wasn't bad either

Edited January 9, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[FuriousMeow]

It should be a bit difficult to attack a target that is heavily guarded with AA units in a single plane. A two ship formation will offer much more distraction and issues for the gunners, and they will have more difficulty tracking.

 

There is too much of this "single plane winning the war" ideology that goes on.

 

Everyone in single fighters expecting to be able to spot all of the single planes easily. Single bombers/attack aircraft expecting to go to and from targets easily without being shot down unless they manage to sneak in and AA is out back drunk on Vodka or Schnapps.

 

It is the problem with the execution of the attack, not with the defense. More people need to work together if you expect realistic results, otherwise it will always be an a-historical slaughter unless everything is dumbed down.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

It should be a bit difficult to attack a target that is heavily guarded with AA units in a single plane. A two ship formation will offer much more distraction and issues for the gunners, and they will have more difficulty tracking.

 

There is too much of this "single plane winning the war" ideology that goes on.

 

Everyone in single fighters expecting to be able to spot all of the single planes easily. Single bombers/attack aircraft expecting to go to and from targets easily without being shot down unless they manage to sneak in and AA is out back drunk on Vodka or Schnapps.

 

It is the problem with the execution of the attack, not with the defense. More people need to work together if you expect realistic results, otherwise it will always be an a-historical slaughter unless everything is dumbed down.

We came as a group of 4 Bf110s, and only two barely got home. Me and someone else had our wings swiftly removed. We did just one pass on the target. And that happens most of the time. 

Edited January 9, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[7.GShAP/Silas]

Do you have a solution that would work? WoL restricts fighters from carrying bombs(except for small ones on the 190, 109E and the P-40), and I think that's the best solution.  This is already an abstraction of the war, keeping ground attack roles with ground attack aircraft is reasonable.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Silas

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Do you have a solution that would work? WoL restricts fighters from carrying bombs(except for small ones on the 190, 109E and the P-40), and I think that's the best solution.  This is already an abstraction of the war, keeping ground attack roles with ground attack aircraft is reasonable.

Stronger Ground Targets. The reason the Fw190s are successful is because Ground targets are easily destroyed by a small number of 500kg bombs and 20mm guns. Ground Targets should take the combined effort of several Bombers, Attackers or Destroyers or a ton of JaBos.

 

The Ground Targets should have a number of "heavy cores" for the bombers and peripheral targets for the JaBos. The AAA should have an efficiency of maybe 5-10% per attack against slow flying attackers and bombers and very little against fighters. It should prevent Il-2s and Stukas from hanging around, or force them to suppress AAA which buys the fighters time. And it should damage Bombers to the point at which they are forced to return to base. 

At that point it makes sense to limit player aircraft. 

 

Now, having many of these heavy targets of course requires longer mission times, but those will come along surely.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Silas, not quite realistic: Pokryshkin's first 354 missions between 1941 and the middle of 1942 included 202 armed recce flights, 37 escorting, 36 patrols, 17 ground cover and 62 ground-attack missions. In other words, most of his MiG-3 career was done with at least rockets under the wings.
In 1-y Kanal's excellent interviews with him and 16 GIAP (translated to English, uploaded by Chuck Owl on Youtube) he mentions they went up against well-defended targets and were obliterated by the AA, and if they survived long enough the fighters would dive on them from above to finish it off. Grim stuff, and the fatalism is noticeable.

 

Which brings me to my point: considering that most objectives are reasonably well-defended (Soviet important sights in particular were known to be very tough to hit, whereas the airfields were actually only lightly armed like Sovkhoz Stalingradskiy much to the dismay of 434 IAP since that allowed German lone-wolfs to hit aircraft on take-off and final), is it not reasonable to expect a 50% casualty rate when flying a twin-engined fighter-bomber with speed and armour characteristics that sit in the middle (ie good enough, but not the best)?

 

Look at the loss reports for the Il-2 for example:

 

1. brought down during aerial combats: 2557 (47 + 169 + 1090 + 882 + 369 in 1941-1945, correspondingly)
2. brought down by AA fire: 4679 (101 + 203 + 1468 + 1859 + 1048 in 1941-1945, correspondingly)
3. destroyed at the airfields: 109 (13 + 14 + 40 + 34 + 8 in 1941-1945, correspondingly)
4. unknown reasons, didn't come back from the combat flight: 3414 (372 + 1290 + 917 + 569 + 266)
So - 533 + 1676 + 3515 + 3344 + 1691 = 10759 total during WWII (28,9% from losses of all Soviet aircrafts).
Also add the losses of Il-2 from the navy aviation: 66 + 128 + 362 + 251 = 807 total during WWII.

 

Even though air opposition had dwindled by 1944 and 1945, and tactics had been extremely refined and worked through since 1941, the Il-2 losses were extremely high for those years, and this was clearly mostly due to AA fire.

 

Now I don't know what tactics you guys were using, but if to base it on this ZG1 briefing (cool stuff by the way, it's nice when squads show some of the inner workings in public ) it would make more sense, at least to me, if instead of dropping one at a time (or all at once from the same direction for that matter) thus allowing the AA to pick off the incoming aircraft individually you had sent out two aircraft flying fast to divert the fire from different direction(s) and altitude while the other two came in quick and shot the house up, then using the free aircraft to distract the gunners while the former diversion does their pass.

 

On Thursday me and a fighter pilot unknown to me did an impromptu tank-busting session on 1946, I took a Il-2 with PTABs and 37mm guns while he flew a Yak-9 with a heavy gun. We had tried attacking individually but the column was Panthers and Tigers with 3 Wirbelwinds in between so whoever approached got shredded. Then without much talking we formed up and started to coordinate it - he would zoom, dive into the tanks and shoot up the Tigers while also distracting the flak while I came in and made it rain PTABs. One flak gun gone, we went around again. This time he shot the Tigers and I hit the second flak tank from behind. Rinse and repeat, third time around he hit the flak while I smashed the Panthers with rockets. After that we cleaned up the area and left. Both aircraft were remarkably wrecked and covered in holes, but both made it back

 

EDIT: By all means not trying to be patronising or discredit you guys; on the opposite I'm quite fascinated by the work and expertise you guys over at ZG26 and ZG1 put into this, I'm just trying to be of some use with my limited knowledge

Edited January 9, 2016 by Lucas_From_Hell

[Sokol1]

I agree about the AA gripes. I never make it back to the airfield with both engines still running on this server. I think the objectives might have more AA than the enemy airfield. It's ridiculous.

 

The issue is if one go alone for the target area the AI have plenty of time to track the target. This happen if you are in tank too, the FLAK guns hit you at almost 3 KM.

 

 

 

The AAA should have an efficiency of maybe 5-10% per attack against slow flying attackers and bombers and very little against fighters.

 

In Mission Editor the AI skill for FLAK  is Low, Normal, High and can't discriminate planes types.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Sokol1

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Please, don't look at what I'm going to say as a lufwhinner post. Because it is not the point at all.

 

 

On the Il2 vs Bf110 matter, I noticed that Russian AAA is more effective than the german one. The 61K guns are just my nightmare and I fear them more than any VVS plane.

I wouldn't say they are snipers but the problem is more related to a decent rate of fire and the ability to one shot any plane on the german side (and probably on the russian side as well, except maybe the IL2)

 

Compare the single barreled MG34 against the four barreled M4 and the 20mm flak38 vs 37mm 61K. Russian just have at their disposal better AAA. 

 

On WoL the other day I was playing on the velikie winter map, and the southern russian artillery was surprisingly guarded by flak38 guns and maybe a couple of 88mm guns. 

I was alone in a 110 and managed to make three passes before heading back to base heavily damaged, and I managed to land safely. If it was guarded by their russian equivalents, I would have been shot down very quickly as it happens on other objectives. 

 

 

I think playing attackers on the German side requires even more coordination than in the VVS, with at least a shwarm of light fighters taming down the bulk of AAA just before the heavies join in. 

Problem is coordination is cruelly lacking these days in the LW... it often ends (without exagerating that much) in a couple of attackers being escorted by a single good hearted fighter pilot while most others are just actively looking for furball fights. 

 

Another solution would be using german AAA on objectives and Russian AAA on airfields but this won't solve what I think is the root of the problem. 

[coconut]

In one of the first MP missions I did I designed an attack on an airfield in phases:

1. Level-bombing destroys flak38
2. IL-2s destroy AT guns
3. Tanks capture airfield

Maybe the same principle could be adopted. Couple the number and skill of flak38/61K to the health of ammo supplies. In the first phase level bombers flying at 4K (out of reach of the deadly flak38/61K) destroy the ammo supplies, then ground attackers can come in and finish the job.

 

Of course, this assumes level bombing from high altitude is possible. It seems there are object rendering distance issues that makes that difficult at the moment.

 

On the specific subject of DED random: the map is pretty small. It makes it somewhat easy for fighters to cover the entire objective area. Because of this flying fighters is the best option for lone wolves (which make up a significant portion of the population on a popular open server). Taking a single large, slow plane into well watched enemy territory is suicide.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Limiting the number of planes is a really nice idea and I like it but as Klaus said the problem is that the bomber guys are losing their aircraft much more frequently than a good fighter pilot will (you can easily fly many sorties in a 109 and not lose an aircraft) so the problem is that this system is discouraging the bomber pilots if the targets are defended by Ace AI flak and not to mention the issue we have with the glass wing on the 110 which is a bit annoying (hopefully they can fix it soon). 

 

So you may even lose 3 aircraft in 3 attacks and are then relegated to flying recon and that is just down to bad luck (and the ace AI) and not bad flying, that isn't the same for a fighter pilot who generally loses his aircraft because of a mistake or bad flying/poor team work.

 

It's clear Klaus is just trying to broach the subject of how to make bombing a little less frustrating. I actually agree with Silas I would personally remove all bombs from single engine aircraft with the exception of the IL2 and maybe some of the VVS aircraft....as much as I love the 190 it really doesn't belong in Stalingrad anyway and the 109s should be kept for air supremacy and bomber intercept. That way the AI skill level can be reduced and maybe compensated with more flak of a lower level. Yes airfields should be heavily defended and loss rate should be high when attacking them.

 

Anyway food for thought...

Edited January 9, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Emil

[Feathered_IV]

It's the second pass over the target that is the mistake.  It's not like they didn't warn you about it in real life. 

If you must do it, don't go cranking it around in a tight turn as soon as you finish your first pass.  Extend way out beyond the target and circle back from another direction.  Most importantly, make sure your final pass puts you on a heading for home too, so you can get out of there without becoming a target for flak and fighters.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

 @Lucas_from_Hell: How mayn sorties were flown by individual aircraft? Maybe we could get an idea of the ratio of sorties/aircraft lost to AAA. Just raw numbers are quite useless, except for showing the relationship of fighterkills to AAA kills. 

[6./ZG26_Emil]

It's the second pass over the target that is the mistake.  It's not like they didn't warn you about it in real life. 

If you must do it, don't go cranking it around in a tight turn as soon as you finish your first pass.  Extend way out beyond the target and circle back from another direction.  Most importantly, make sure your final pass puts you on a heading for home too, so you can get out of there without becoming a target for flak and fighters.

 

What second pass, did you read what Klaus said?

 

He is raising the issue that servers use ace AAA most likely because without it hordes of 190s with their 500kg bombs would have a field day but the ace AAA are snipers and added to the issue with the glass wing on the 110 we're seeing half our force shot down in the first attack run.

 

We are not noobs and are constantly working on tactics but what Klaus is saying (and you could read my post above) is that while the 3 plane limit is a nice idea it's effectively putting off people flying bombers IF the target is also covered with super sniper AAA that can blow your wing off. So maybe it would be an idea to prevent fighters taking bombs so that the AAA skill level can be lowered.

 

When the P-40 came out we ran a WOL mission on my server to have a practice at ground attack and even in a fairly fast single engine aircraft we were getting sniped out of the air....the ACE AAA is too accurate especially against twin engine aircraft.

[Proudtiger]

Don't go online simples.

Let the brainy narcissists bomb each other to their hearts content while the rest of us can have our own fun offline without the pretentious seriousness.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Proudtiger

[9./JG52Gruber]

Not having played in the mission editor myself is it not possible to change skill level per gun? The airfield AAA could be ace and the target AAA something lower?

 

Also, I agree that 109 & 190 should not be jabos in this setting except for E7 109 which was it's primary function on East front. WoL got killed in these forums for removing the bombs so I can't imagine DeD would want to hear the same whining and subsequent player count reduction.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Not having played in the mission editor myself is it not possible to change skill level per gun? The airfield AAA could be ace and the target AAA something lower?

 

Also, I agree that 109 & 190 should not be jabos in this setting except for E7 109 which was it's primary function on East front. WoL got killed in these forums for removing the bombs so I can't imagine DeD would want to hear the same whining and subsequent player count reduction.

 

Yep its easy to change. At the end of the day it's up to the mission designers and the servers belong to them so no one can really complain....I think Klaus posted this after a very frustrating evening last night. We know which servers use Ace AAA, you can look at them in the ME. 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The issue is if one go alone for the target area the AI have plenty of time to track the target. This happen if you are in tank too, the FLAK guns hit you at almost 3 KM.

 

In Mission Editor the AI skill for FLAK  is Low, Normal, High and can't discriminate planes types.

The Aircraft discriminate against the AAA, since it is effective against low slow and ineffective against fast and low aircraft.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

@Lucas_from_Hell: How mayn sorties were flown by individual aircraft? Maybe we could get an idea of the ratio of sorties/aircraft lost to AAA. Just raw numbers are quite useless, except for showing the relationship of fighterkills to AAA kills.

From what I've read I have never seen anything that indicated a solo A2G Il-2 sortie. The go-to formation was of 6 aircraft, many times 12 and up were used and the smallest unit was of 2 on armed recce.

 

Solo Il-2 sorties only happened when a regiment needed a first-hand look at the situation on the front or an overfly at altitude of a target area, but these were always followed by at least two fighters as escort. In short, let's consider the average sortie included 6 aircraft to keep it simple

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

From what I've read I have never seen anything that indicated a solo A2G Il-2 sortie. The go-to formation was of 6 aircraft, many times 12 and up were used and the smallest unit was of 2 on armed recce.

 

Solo Il-2 sorties only happened when a regiment needed a first-hand look at the situation on the front or an overfly at altitude of a target area, but these were always followed by at least two fighters as escort. In short, let's consider the average sortie included 6 aircraft to keep it simple

I was asking about how many sorties were flown per aircraft/Aircraft shot down. Not about unit but individual, in a unit, sorties. Well, so many ways to be misunderstood. 

Edited January 9, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

1. Lots of AAA at Ace Level

2. Limit Number of available aircraft per Pilot. 

 

(on DED Experimental Server)

 

In regards to the title of the thread, I fly my share of ground attack sorties on DED Expert and the above hasn't discouraged me.  I survive more than 90% of these sorties (stats under MrStick).  I remember this same complaint in IL2 1946.  It didn't stop people then either.  There were training videos on how to attack ground targets and avoid AAA.

 

I may be mistaken but I have the impression there are more AAA at airfields than at ground targets, except maybe the Rear Warehouse.  Even the rear warehouse I attacked in a Stuka and made it back unscathed.

 

I don't know if it has effectively deterred people from vulching though (I was killed on the apron by a kamikaze just last night).

 

At the moment IMO DED Expert is the best server around.  There are some new ones I see coming.  It will be interesting to see their AAA approach.

Edited January 9, 2016 by 12.OIAE_Stick-95

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I was asking about how many sorties were flown per aircraft/Aircraft shot down. Not about unit but individual, in a unit, sorties. Well, so many ways to be misunderstood. 

 

My bad, lack of sleep on my part This data is from Bergström:

 

In the most difficult period, 22 June 1941 - 1 July 1942, the Il-2 loss rate was a terrible 7.7 % (one lost in every 13 sorties).

(...)

The period 1 August 1942 - 1 June 1943 was the second worst for the Il-2, with an average loss rate of 3.85 % (one lost in every 26 sorties).

(...)

Through 1944, a total of 4,100 Il-2s were lost in combat - compared with the 8,800 at hand on 1 January 1944, i.e. the yearly loss was 47 % of the number of aircraft available at the beginning of the year.

 

Can't find a number of sorties/loss for 1944 or 1945, though.

 

This excerpt from Alexei Smirnov puts losses in some regiments in perspective though:

 

The 305th Shturmovik Division, 17th Air Army had 2.2 sorties for each combat loss (in three days the division lost in 137 combat sorties two-thirds of its machines - 67 IL-2s. and on July 8th was withdrawn to the rear for reformation.)

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

My bad, lack of sleep on my part This data is from Bergström:

 

 

Can't find a number of sorties/loss for 1944 or 1945, though.

 

This excerpt from Alexei Smirnov puts losses in some regiments in perspective though:

Many thanks. Treat yourself to a capful of sleep then.

[JtD]

I've come to despise people complaining over vulching, if they themselves can't be bothered to fly a CAP. There's nothing easier than to circle your airfield and swoop down on someone setting up for a strafing run. I don't get while folks bitch and moan when they themselves can do everything necessary which also happens to be the best and most effective possible.

 

In the end, endless the bitching and moaning will (aside from instantly spoiling everyone's fun) lead to measures taken on the server side that will restrict people, limit their options. If I had it my way, I'd set up a few tracer guns here and there to make it easier to pinpoint airfield attackers, and leave the rest (including ground target defence) to player controlled fighters mostly. Attackers deserve to get through if there are no defenders.

 

I used to think a bit different when I was new, but came around to this point of view after about 5 years and still have it.

Edited January 9, 2016 by JtD

[7.GShAP/Silas]

Stronger Ground Targets. The reason the Fw190s are successful is because Ground targets are easily destroyed by a small number of 500kg bombs and 20mm guns. Ground Targets should take the combined effort of several Bombers, Attackers or Destroyers or a ton of JaBos.

 

The Ground Targets should have a number of "heavy cores" for the bombers and peripheral targets for the JaBos. The AAA should have an efficiency of maybe 5-10% per attack against slow flying attackers and bombers and very little against fighters. It should prevent Il-2s and Stukas from hanging around, or force them to suppress AAA which buys the fighters time. And it should damage Bombers to the point at which they are forced to return to base. 

At that point it makes sense to limit player aircraft. 

 

Now, having many of these heavy targets of course requires longer mission times, but those will come along surely.

 

 

I suppose you mean targets covering a larger geographic area, with "heavy cores" requiring more flight time over a target.  I agree that targets like the depots on DED are far too concentrated.  But again, I have absolutely no idea what is available to mission designers of a "dynamic" style random campaign as far as AAA settings go, OR the limits on the number of AI units.  Unless you speak fluent Russian and ask the DED guys why it is the way it is and what could be different I don't think you will ever have an answer from them if you can't get it from someone else, and nobody else is doing what they are doing.

 

 

Silas, not quite realistic: Pokryshkin's first 354 missions between 1941 and the middle of 1942 included 202 armed recce flights, 37 escorting, 36 patrols, 17 ground cover and 62 ground-attack missions. In other words, most of his MiG-3 career was done with at least rockets under the wings.

 

 

 

Fair enough, I'm ignorant of the types of fighters that commonly carried bombs or rockets and only know the "usual suspects" of popular myth.  My point was more that I think a server is justified in heavily restricting JaBo aircraft for balance's sake, and it can easily be couched in the fact that ground attack aircraft did the extreme majority of ground attack.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Silas

[Feathered_IV]

What second pass, did you read what Klaus said?

 

 

We have a roughly 50% return rate after a 2 passes raid on most targets in four to five Bf110s. And these are quick passes from 2500m with a very sharp and short approach and quick reproach. 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

@Feathered: Two Rotten, one High Cover, one attack. Each Rotte made a pass. Each Rotte had losses or severe damage. 

Edited January 9, 2016 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Stig]

Lucas, would you share the link to the IL2 losses you posted in #19?

 

Thanks