Please re-think engine time limits.

[Reflected]

If I understand correctly, the way it works now is that if the RPM or pressure goes above certain limits that is written in the official manual of the engine, a timer starts, and when you exceed the time, the engine will break. This effects German aircrafts mostly, that have a hard coded 1 minute "expiry date" at full throttle.

 

In reality, however, the engine could have broken at full throttle any time between 1 minute, 3 minute or 30 hours. We have the luxury to fly new planes every time we take off, so removing these limits would be very unrealistic and unfair. Just as unfair as making the engine break 100% after the shortest time limit is exceeded.

 

It would be much more realistic if there was a random factor, like, if the limit now is 1 minute, then it could break anytime between 1 minute and 5 minutes, let's say.

 

Right now BoS is considering the most pessimistic outcome every time and this makes air combat very limited.

 

What do you think?

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Agreed, however, that would mean fixing the F-4 FM (too fast at Combat Power).

[Reflected]

Agreed, however, that would mean fixing the F-4 FM (too fast at Combat Power).

 

Indeed, that goes without saying - you mean emergency power though, no? 

Edited December 4, 2015 by Reflected

[Bullets]

Sounds fair to me! 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Indeed, that goes without saying - you mean emergency power though, no? 

At Combat power the F-4 is too fast. And at Emergency Power it's way too quick. 

If speed at combat poer was reduced to the correct 525 at SL, and Emergency to 537 at SL, there would be an argument to extend the emergency power time.

 

Anyways, the whole Bf109 F and Gs cooling is a bit srewed up concerning Overheating etc. (I would love to know what the "African Reference" was, because it goes against everything else)

Also, the climb rates of the 109s are too slow with manual rad control.

 

Edit: Correct for I am wrong. The F-4 does 525 at SL, the world has been righted.  And it has 5 minutes at 1.35 ata. Happy me,

Edited December 4, 2015 by -Floating-Klaus_Mann

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

At Combat power the F-4 is too fast. And at Emergency Power it's way too quick. 

If speed at combat poer was reduced to the correct 525 at SL, and Emergency to 537 at SL, there would be an argument to extend the emergency power time.

 

Anyways, the whole Bf109 F and Gs cooling is a bit srewed up concerning Overheating etc. (I would love to know what the "African Reference" was, because it goes against everything else)

Also, the climb rates of the 109s are too slow with manual rad control.

 

Edit: Correct for I am wrong. The F-4 does 525 at SL, the world has been righted.  And it has 5 minutes at 1.35 ata. Happy me,

Scratch that, forgot the trim, the F-4 is still roughly 12kph too fast.

[Reflected]

I agree with you man, but pls keep this thread on track, and let's discuss the idea of more forgiving /flexible/ realistic time limits.

 

What is also strange, is that 1 minute at 1.32 and 1 minute at 1.42 has the same effect/ time limit. Or do they? Is there a difference, or the clock is ticking as long as it's above 1.3?

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I agree with you man, but pls keep this thread on track, and let's discuss the idea of more forgiving /flexible/ realistic time limits.

 

What is also strange, is that 1 minute at 1.32 and 1 minute at 1.42 has the same effect/ time limit. Or do they? Is there a difference, or the clock is ticking as long as it's above 1.3?

To give the F-4 (most important) more realistic engine limit, the Performance would have to be corrected, lower top speed at CC at SL, so that the Perormance increase through higher duration of Emergency power isn't OP.

[Voidhunger]

Absolutely agree Reflected

[LLv24_Zami]

Agreed. FM is great but there are some pretty weird stuff that needs to be looked by devs.

[Lippisch]

But at least now it is predictable. How dissatisfying would it be to enter combat only to have the engine cut out at 2 minutes? The only safe thing to do would still be to cut it off before the 1 minute mark. I do not understand how this would actually improve the game-play unless the 'randomness' was heavily biased to being on the long end. Is this what you propose? Then it would not be truly random, and so I am unsure how the devs might balance the gameplay. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by Lippisch

[JtD]

It would be much more realistic if there was a random factor, like, if the limit now is 1 minute, then it could break anytime between 1 minute and 5 minutes, let's say.

That's exactly how it is right now.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

That's exactly how it is right now.

Nope, not at all. I do the Stopwatch on every test. Emergency power leads to engine damage almost exactly 30 seconds after expiry. Randomness really only happens around 5 seconds.

[Sokol1]

I do not understand how this would actually improve the game-play unless the 'randomness' was heavily biased to being on the long end.

 

Using the "historic" TechnoChat warning "LED's" as safety measurement perhaps? 

[LLv24_Zami]

Nope, not at all. I do the Stopwatch on every test. Emergency power leads to engine damage almost exactly 30 seconds after expiry. Randomness really only happens around 5 seconds.

You are right, just tried it myself.

[JtD]

I gave it three tries with 70s, 95s and 110s of WEP time on the F-4 without damage. Clearly a random factor.

 

Fwiw, it's outright stupid the way it is, and changing the margin from somewhere within 2 minutes to somewhere within 4 doesn't make anything any better or more realistic. Fact is these engines could break at any time at any power setting and the time limits on German were legal limits and not technical ones. In order to call these time limits "realistic", you'd need a dwarf lawyer with a sledge hammer and a stopwatch in each engine compartment. I've never seen one.

[Lippisch]

Using the "historic" TechnoChat warning "LED's" as safety measurement perhaps? 

 

Or you could look at the clock in the cockpit. Or count in your head. Aloud if you prefer. Refer to JtD's post. 

[Dakpilot]

Trouble is if you allow a 'historic' limit every one will abuse that limit to the bleeding edge and the resultant dogfights would be even less 'historic'

 

The Luftwaffe would burn through an entire years supply of engines in one MP battle

 

with an 'unrealistic' but historical 1 minute timer at least everyone knows what the limit is

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Reflected]

Trouble is if you allow a 'historic' limit every one will abuse that limit to the bleeding edge and the resultant dogfights would be even less 'historic'

 

The Luftwaffe would burn through an entire years supply of engines in one MP battle

 

with an 'unrealistic' but historical 1 minute timer at least everyone knows what the limit is

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

That's why I didn't suggest historic limits like hours or so.

But there should be a line in the middle. Limited, risky, but  not this stopwatch break after the slightest abuse.

[Matt]

I think increasing the time until the engine breaks by X-minutes doesn't make things any better.

 

What could work, but might annoy people, is a completely random feature.

 

Like that the engine might break at any manifold pressure/RPM combination, but running the engine at higher settings and/or too hot or cold could increase the chance of damaging the engine (and engine damage shouldn't necessary result in guarenteed "engine stopped" either), even with a chance that the engine might not break at all when abusing it.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Matt

[Reflected]

I ran some tests on the E-7, the F-4 and the 110

 

Good news 1: there IS a random factor. However, quite minimal. The engine always broke within 0-40 seconds from exceeding the time

 

Good news 2: It appears to be not completely square. 1.42 ATA emergency power will break your engine sooner than 1.36 ATA emergency power. That is good.

 

Conclusion 3: If I let the engine run in continuous mode before exceeding the time limit, I gain 10-20 seconds of emergency mode use. Might be a placebo though.

 

So it is there, but still, in a very strict, pessimistic way. Increasing the random period from 0-40 seconds to 0-5 minutes would bring us closer to reality. Matt's idea would be the most realistic, but we would need accu-sim level engine modelling I think. If it was implemented with a random code, it would only cause further debates.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Manuals and performance sheets on the DB601 confirm that 1 minute was definetly cleared for SAFE usage (mind SAFE usage means 1 min + safety factor). Another datasheet (posted in FM thread) even says 3 min. is the max permittable ammount in flight.

 

Also, the 109 had an automatic WEP limiter for takeoffs that would automaticly disable 1.42 ata boost after one minute expired (again document in FM topic). This mechanical gadget of course is missing in BoS so it's difficult to know for how long after take off you still can apply 1.42 ata without damaging the engine.

 

Another thing is the max ammount of total usage of 1.42 ata. I don't knwo for shure how exactly it effected the engine but it probably allowed for more than 1 min of 1.42 ata usage per flight as long as it's temporary usage didn't exeed 1 min. +safety factor. That's how I assumed it working ingame as well.

 

The Ju 87 manual btw suggests to cut throttle back to climb power as soon as the plane takes off the ground because of the short time limits for 1.42 ata. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Matt]

 

 

Also, the 109 had an automatic WEP limiter for takeoffs that would automaticly disable 1.42 ata boost after one minute expired (again document in FM topic). This mechanical gadget of course is missing in BoS so it's difficult to know for how long after take off you still can apply 1.42 ata without damaging the engine.

 

That device was not used in the planes of BoM or BoS.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

 

That device was not used in the planes of BoM or BoS.

Are you sure? Because the document i referr to actually is about the DB601N (Bf-109 F-2), which formed the base for the DB601E (Bf-109 F-4).

 

Anyway here's the excerp:

 

Also, this is form the Bf-109 F-2 Kennblatt (1941, DB601 N)

 

Attention! The values collected in the table for climbing with Take off and Emergency Power may be drawn in as dashed lines. Only parts of this line's progression are to be flown due to Take off and Emergency Power duration being limited to 3 minutes though.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[JtD]

The device was only used with early DB601A's and maybe carried over to some of the first DB601N's. It wasn't used with DB601E's or DB605's in service, and given that BoM takes place a good year after the device was being phased out, I'd say it's save to agree with Matt.

[Xenunjeon88]

My only problem is that if this strict time limit is made for German planes, the same should be done to Soviet ones too.

 

Too many times, I boost away to return home after a bad hit or low fuel/what-have-you... but after a minute I'm forced to back off the throttle cause of the time-sensitive limits of the engine...

 

That wouldn't be too bad, but as long as you don't overheat the engine of Soviet planes, you can just go full power all the time and keep up with a German fighter and catch him trying to land. That seems kind of like the kind of unrealistic abuse devs were afraid of with modeling German engines, but in reigning it in, they gave an advantage in the Soviet's favor in terms of allowing an invincible Soviet engine while maxing out throttle...

 

So to sum up, if German planes can only boost for 1 minute, 5 minute, whatever, the Soviet airplanes should have a similar limit, (perhaps a few minutes longer than German engines, if the Soviet engine durability was historically better than German.)

 

Edit: Well whatever, I don't know anything about boost's effects on engines, soviet or otherwise... but something needs to be done to make the engine limits a little bit more forgiving and not so final and pessimistic...

Edited December 17, 2015 by Xenunjeon88

[Dakpilot]

must understand, M105pf 1,050 hp (782 kW) at 2,700 RPM at 13,123 ft (4,000 m), boost rated at 1.21 Atm 

 

and 1,100 hp (820 kW) at 2,700 RPM for take-off, boost rated at 1.27 Atm

 

German time limits are at 1.42 ata and 1.35 ata, at about 1.2 ata German aircraft are safe at continuous power running

 

Full throttle on Yak is not like full boost on 109, a bit simplified  but generally true

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

at least I got to say one thing the German or Luftwaffe flyers are honest about the settings.. and want the fairness and don't like; even if their planes are wrong will point it out.

[Matt]

must understand, M105pf 1,050 hp (782 kW) at 2,700 RPM at 13,123 ft (4,000 m), boost rated at 1.21 Atm 

 

and 1,100 hp (820 kW) at 2,700 RPM for take-off, boost rated at 1.27 Atm

 

German time limits are at 1.42 ata and 1.35 ata, at about 1.2 ata German aircraft are safe at continuous power running

 

Full throttle on Yak is not like full boost on 109, a bit simplified  but generally true

 

Cheers Dakpilot

If 1 ATA = 760 mmhq and the M-105 PF has 1050 mmhg at maximum power, i would say that it's equivalent to 1.38 ATA. Which would sit right between take-off and combat power on the German engines.

[Livai]

 

 

Good news 2: It appears to be not completely square. 1.42 ATA emergency power will break your engine sooner than 1.36 ATA emergency power. That is good.

 

With 85% and 86% Throttle are around 1.36 ATA I can fly above 10min all the time.

[Dakpilot]

If 1 ATA = 760 mmhq and the M-105 PF has 1050 mmhg at maximum power, i would say that it's equivalent to 1.38 ATA. Which would sit right between take-off and combat power on the German engines.

 

I understood 1 Atm = 1 ATA, M-105 PF at takeoff power is 1.27 Atm (ATA?) or 38.00 Inches hg MP not 1.38 ATA

 

Am fairly sure it is documented that M-105 was operated at full throttle (within temp limits) 

 

​Am sure there are some more knowledgeable experts who can chime in, I was replying to the premise that if a DB601 cannot be operated at full throttle then the same should be true for M-105..but they are not the same engine

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Mac_Messer]

I`m also having problems with engine failure. There is no visual alarm that engine is overheating on the left of the screen, just the 'First Engine Damaged' notice when the plane is already done. Where exactly is this border in a range between 80-110 Celsius?

With 85% and 86% Throttle are around 1.36 ATA I can fly above 10min all the time.

Ok, so is 100% power in BoS equivalent to 110% power in IL2:1946?

[Dakpilot]

I`m also having problems with engine failure. There is no visual alarm that engine is overheating on the left of the screen, just the 'First Engine Damaged' notice when the plane is already done. Where exactly is this border in a range between 80-110 Celsius?

Ok, so is 100% power in BoS equivalent to 110% power in IL2:1946?

 

Engine and temp limits for all A/C are in the BoS manual, F-4 max continuous 2300rpm/1.15 ATA

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Matt]

I understood 1 Atm = 1 ATA, M-105 PF at takeoff power is 1.27 Atm (ATA?) or 38.00 Inches hg MP not 1.38 ATA

38 "hg / 960 mmhg was the take-off MP for the M-105 P and PA. The PF had 1050 mmhg.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Matt

[LukeFF]

 

 

That wouldn't be too bad, but as long as you don't overheat the engine of Soviet planes, you can just go full power all the time and keep up with a German fighter and catch him trying to land. That seems kind of like the kind of unrealistic abuse devs were afraid of with modeling German engines, but in reigning it in, they gave an advantage in the Soviet's favor in terms of allowing an invincible Soviet engine while maxing out throttle...

 

The Il-2's engine has a limit on how long it can be run at max power. It's about 5 minutes IIRC. 

[Brano]

VK105PF had 100h resurs set by manufacturer.25h less then previous M105PA with lower MP (950mmHg).During stand trials in April 1942,PF engine (1050mmHg) was able to run 203h untill breakdown.

As long as you can keep the coolants within limits,you can fly at 2550rpm at 1st and 2700rpm at 2nd supercharger stage untill your fuel tanks are empty.

[I./JG1_Baron]

If I understand correctly, the way it works now is that if the RPM or pressure goes above certain limits that is written in the official manual of the engine, a timer starts, and when you exceed the time, the engine will break. This effects German aircrafts mostly, that have a hard coded 1 minute "expiry date" at full throttle.

 

In reality, however, the engine could have broken at full throttle any time between 1 minute, 3 minute or 30 hours. We have the luxury to fly new planes every time we take off, so removing these limits would be very unrealistic and unfair. Just as unfair as making the engine break 100% after the shortest time limit is exceeded.

 

It would be much more realistic if there was a random factor, like, if the limit now is 1 minute, then it could break anytime between 1 minute and 5 minutes, let's say.

 

Right now BoS is considering the most pessimistic outcome every time and this makes air combat very limited.

 

What do you think?

 

Dont agree, we have not real plane - this is a game. IMO now is a good compromise between game and real flight. If introduced this, so anyone can claim for example ripping coating on the wings of the Yak-1, yellowing of glass on Soviet aircraft, engine freeze in winter by german aircrafts etc.

[JtD]

Actually 1 ata = 735mmHG so the 1050mm correspond to 1.43ata.

 

'At' is a technical atmosphere, equivalent to the pressure of 10m of water under 1g conditions, the second 'a' indicating it's absolute pressure, whereas an 'ü' would be relative pressure compared to the environment.

'Atm' would be the physical atmosphere, equivalent to the air pressure at sea level in standard conditions of 1013 hPa, 760mmHG.

 

Long story short, in game the M105PF can run 1.43ata/2700rpm indefinitely, the DB601E can do the same for 1 minute.

Neither engine comes with a time limit in the manual, but of the two, the DB601 is the only one that can blow a cylinder head gasket.

[Ace_Pilto]

Please re-think the enigine time limits

 

*Translated*

 

Please correct my [Edited] flying.

 

Repeat language offenders will start receiving corrective actions if this persists.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Bearcat
Language

[SR-F_Winger]

Please re-think the enigine time limits

 

*Translated*

 

Please correct my [Edited] flying.

Without knowing you i bet on Reflected to beat you 9 out of 10 in a 1 one one same plane.

So please. At least earn yourself a name before making such stupid comments.

 

@ Reflected: +1 on your OP

Edited December 19, 2015 by Bearcat