Tank Gunsight Tutorial Around?

[rlk281]

For now, I just elevate the gun to my best guess for range, but would love to know if any of you have run across a simple tutorial for using the scales on the sights...thanks!

[KpaxBos]

Hello,

 

Here a small compilation of what I found. I do not remind the site for the panzer guide (I think it was panzerguide or panzerworlg...).

This is a first draft; Nothing yet for the T34.

 

Hope it helps.

 

Have fun

IL2Bos_TANKS.pdf

[rlk281]

Thank you, sir!

 

Hello,

 

Here a small compilation of what I found. I do not remind the site for the panzer guide (I think it was panzerguide or panzerworlg...).

This is a first draft; Nothing yet for the T34.

 

Hope it helps.

 

Have fun

[54th_Dutch]

in Key mapping there should be a separate section for Tank control to confusing

[Sokol1]

"Less keys is better", so use the planes controls to fly ... drive the tank.

 

Anyway if you want reassing, bellow the name of controls used in tanks.

 

Engage engines start procedure/Stop engine =  

Canopy Open/Close = 

Turret: take control/leave =

Fire turret guns =

Gunsight range adjustments =

Gunsight horizontal adjustments = 

Gunsight reset =

Select ammunition =

Pilot head: zoom =

Vehicle acceleration/brake =

Vehicle turn = 

Landing lights on/off =

 

Only the mouse camera for move the sight/turret is not listed... Bunt don't worth change the control from mouse to, for example, joystick, as the mouse allow more precise control oh the sight.

For turret big transverse movements - when the mouse became awkward - you can use the joy HAT or the keys 4, 6, 2, 8.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Sokol1

[Sokol1]

Tigerfibel

[rlk281]

How do you come up with this stuff??? :-)

 

Tigerfibel

[Sokol1]

Don't understand your question... 

 

In this Steel Fury: Kharkov 1942 manual* (pag. 41) is said that T-34 TMFD sight range scale is in "thousandths"... (of meter?). 

 

"(Target) Dimensions / thousandths * 1000 = distance to target"

 

But how many "thousandths" are each division in the range scale?

 

Looks that is 8000 th - the small width of the "tank" in example (2 meters) - Picture 9.2 - is misleading...   

 

http://www.stormpowered.com/stormcloud/games/6904/manual.pdf

 

Related: http://forum.warthunder.ru/index.php?/topic/87394-tankovye-pritcely-chto-kak-i-pochemu/

 

*Strange the English in that manual...  Looks Rustran... 

Edited November 30, 2015 by Sokol1

[Brano]

Soviet gunsight:

1. Dont use left scale SG = staraya granata =old projectile,we dont have in game F(fugasni)350 or Sh(Shrapnel)354T granat

2. Use only right scale DG = dalnaya granata = long range projectile both for AP (BR350A broneboyni) and HE = in fact OF350M Oskolotschno-fugasnyi = fragmentation/high-explosive

3. The smallest scale to the right is for MG

 

Principle of range finding is same as with germans.On horizontal line you have mills from 0=8=16=24=32

Example: you face PzkpfwIII front.Its width is cca 3m in real

You put your gunsight on him and he fills the horizontal lines from 0 to lets say 4 (small line inbetween 0 and 8 mills)

simple math = 3m/4mills*1000= 750m distance from you to german tank

 

You can use same logic when facing Panzer from the side.You just have to know how long its hull is (cca 6m)

[Sokol1]

T-34 Opera Resume

 

 

Edited August 12, 2018 by Sokol1

[rlk281]

Thanks very much Sokol and Brano!

[Hammer757]

Hello,

 

Here a small compilation of what I found. I do not remind the site for the panzer guide (I think it was panzerguide or panzerworlg...).

This is a first draft; Nothing yet for the T34.

 

Hope it helps.

 

Have fun

Nice work 

KpaxBos!

[HippyDruid]

That's awesome Sokol1. I was wondering how I could work out range without icons on! 

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

 

T-34 Opera Resume

 

 

adult photo sharing

 

[Brano]

Use only DG scale,or as sokol marked it wrong ''AP''. It is not AP but translated from cyrilic DG = Dalnaya Granata,for both ingame HE and AP ammo

[Sokol1]

Good tip.

 

In previous topic the consensus was there would be different ballistics for each shell type, so use one scale for each:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/19583-t-34-sight/

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/141277-you-couldnt-hit-a-ferdinand-at-this-distance/&do=findComment&comment=2721778

 

But testing, I notice that up to 1.200 meters no noticeable difference in shell ballistics, both type hit the same point, for the same sight adjust. Above this distance is difficult track the hit point.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Sokol1

[Brano]

...because different balistics arc applies only for old projectile types = Staraya Granata,which we dont have and were not used much in that time.Those were shells used mostly in previous incarnations of F-34 gun (F-32,L-11) and standard field cannons of 76.2mm (like divisional F-22,ZiS-3 etc) 

[Sokol1]

Fixed:

 

 

image upload no compression

[GunnyHighway]

 

Fixed:

 

 

image upload no compression

 

 

As a rule of thumb, the AP are "generally" faster rounds than HE, they have a flatter trajectory for the most part of their flight, hence they reach further. Therefore, it is "generally" a safe bet to assume than the longest etched distance scale in gunsights belongs to the AP rounds.

 

How come are there Thousands and Mils. I have not yet seen Thousands in the stadiametric system.

 

Target size means Target dimension, measurement?

 

Citing the sources is always a good idea.

[Brano]

For high velocity guns and for standard WW2 tank combat ranges of 500-1000m the difference between AP and HE is insignificant.

As example,soviet telescopic sight TSh-15 for T-34 S-53 85mm gun had unified vertical scale for both AP (Broneboyny) and HE (Oskolotschny) 

Telescopic sight was in thousands,thats what written in manual.From 0 to 32.Distance inbetween 2 long vertical lines was 8,smaller line inbetween was 4 thousands

 

Telescopic sight for T-34 with F-34 76.2mm gun uses the same system.Only that it has still this SG vertical scale for obsolete ammo type F354,which was rarely used in 42',only in case that OF350 was in short supply.

 

interesting info about ammo load:

 

1942 model with radiostation 36 projectiles

1942 model w/o radio 71 projectles

1943 model (with hexagonal ''Mickey Mouse'' turret) even 100 projectiles,of which 21 were BR350 (APHE), 75 OF350 (HE-fragmentation) and 4 subcaliber BR350P (APCR) 

 

Sources: Voenizdat,Tank T-34 v boju,1942 + Tank T-34 Rukovodstvo,2.nd edition,1944

[Sokol1]

As a rule of thumb, the AP are "generally" faster rounds than HE, they have a flatter trajectory for the most part of their flight, hence they reach further. Therefore, it is "generally" a safe bet to assume than the longest etched distance scale in gunsights belongs to the AP rounds.

 

Maybe the game use the same weight/speed for both shells...

 

 

 

How come are there Thousands and Mils. I have not yet seen Thousands in the stadiametric system.

 

"Thousandths" come from Steel Fury: Kharkov 1942 game manual - already linked above.

Looks that is the same "Mils" but based in metric system. 1 meter/10000.

 

The devs call the horizontal division in T-34 sight scale as "Mils".

 

Target size means Target dimension, measurement?

 

Yes, is the width and length of PzKpfw III Ausf L  (Wiki - other references vary slight).

 

Other useful game manual (not in "Rustran") about tank sight usage, in this is used target height in calculations.  But the T-34 sight grid is different, is TSH-15.

 

http://www.tanksimzw.com/data_1/Manual_T34.pdf

Edited December 2, 2015 by Sokol1

[GunnyHighway]

TO BRANO LAST POST:

 

Oh yes, but there is a difference.

 

And I personally find a difference in the trajectory of a AP and HE round significant for WW2 tank combat under and above 1000 meters. That difference could be of 1/2 meter on a target at 1000 meters, and it makes the difference between a kill or being killed, between gaining initiative or losing it. Very often tank combat can be a binary process; you shoot then they shoot. Do you want to be behind in that process because you missed by 1/2 meter your target twice, when they are two hits ahead of you?...I personally don't, I'd rather be ahead so they die first!

 

Beside, to know the small difference of trajectory of the different rounds used and how it translates in the sight is paramount. If there is an insignificant difference for a 1000 meters target, sitting between two graduations, and the target right in the middle of a graduation, then that difference would translate for a 2,1 meter long canon barrel by a 10 m/m elevation difference. It would make, for the same projectile trajectory a difference of 1000/2.1= 476.190.

Then, 476.190 x 0.010 = 4.761 meters difference. 4.7 meters is enough to miss a Big Dinosaur or a small car or a Pz III L. 

 

Now if you add to the fact that most players don't make a difference between distance and range, we are not talking anymore of a difference 4.7 meters, but much more.

 

So for me those differences are very important, because they add up at the end of the trajectory of the projectile, and it makes the necessary difference between walking home on your own steam or carried by four pal bearers.

 

Now, regarding the "Thousands" for the formula (Thousand*1000). I believed that the graduation of Soviet Gunsight (precisely the T-34) was in  "Mилль Радиан" which translates into English by "Mille Radian".

Mille translates in French by "Thousand" or 1000.

Miles means an English measure of 1.6 Km.

So Mils seemed more appropriate when it stands next to 1000 in number. Because, thousand standing next to 1000 is also confusing for English speaking people, Mille standing next to 1000 is confusing for the French speaking people, when "Mils" is certainly not confusing for English and French speaking people anymore.

Edited December 2, 2015 by GunnyHighway

[GunnyHighway]

Ok Sokol1, but "Mils" does not mean a thousands, there is a mistake somewhere in the translation from the original Russian manual SFK:1942, into English. Translations occasionally butcher the original meaning.

[Brano]

There is no significant difference at practical range for F-34 gun,which we talk about here.In fact OF350 had higher muzzle velocity then BR350A,so your ''rule of thumb'' does not rule here much.Thats why I do not asume,which scale is which,I write what is in manual.It also says ''thousands'' as germans and russians use metric system.If it confuses english/US,well,I guess it confuses only you,noone else complained here 

[HippyDruid]

 

Fixed:

 

 

image upload no compression

 

 

Even Better! 

 

[GunnyHighway]

There is no significant difference at practical range for F-34 gun,which we talk about here.In fact OF350 had higher muzzle velocity then BR350A,so your ''rule of thumb'' does not rule here much.Thats why I do not asume,which scale is which,I write what is in manual.It also says ''thousands'' as germans and russians use metric system.If it confuses english/US,well,I guess it confuses only you,noone else complained here 

I am not confused. I use the metric system for 54 years  and i have been using a stadiametric formula presented differently for a long time way before IL-2 BOS came out with drivable tanks. I even wrote 2 books about it, so I am faaar from being confused. I was just making sure that we were all talking about the thing .

 

I don't know everyone, but I can attest that most Multiplayer maps for Tanks with the normal settings are mostly populated and not the Expert ones? So why do you think that is Brano?...After all a Tank drives the same in expert or normal setting, it is not like a planes with complex engine management, right?....Could it be possible that the player in normal settings enjoy the fact that the distance is posted over the target, hence skipping a process of establishing distance and range which you seem to be making abundantly clear and very easy to comprehend for all. It is not because people don't complain, that they clearly understand.

 

Now what manual are you referring too?

Edited December 3, 2015 by GunnyHighway

[Sokol1]

 

 

 I can attest that most Multiplayer maps for Tanks with the normal settings are mostly populated and not the Expert ones?

 

OT - MP is basically divided between DED NORMAL, DED EXPERT and WoL EXPERT. Eventually one or other server has "quorum" but is rare.

 

Between DED's, are more players in NORMAL, but overall are more players in DED EXPERT+WoL EXPERT.

As in CloD MP, the little remain of online CFS/G player community want more "sim" than "game". The "gamers" are most in WT.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Sokol1

[GunnyHighway]

Sorry Sokol1, I don't understand your abbreviations. What are DED normal DED expert and WoL.

What is a quorum!...

Clod MP?....CFS/G?..WT means War Thunder?

 

I was talking initially about the MP Tank maps HERE IN IL-2, not anywhere else in the world.

 

Which translation from which manual Brano was talking about?...Are you guys trying to translate the manuals from WWII Battle Tanks T-34 vs Tiger, then Steel Fury Kharkov 1*9*4*2, Rising Storm Red Orchestra2, War Thunder, Achtung Panzer, Panzer Commander, IPanzer'44 and Iron Front?

 

Don't copy paste copyrighted materials. If the process of establishing distance to a target is clear in your heads, you should be able to come up with your own words and your own diagrams, without having to translate anyone else 's work.

[Sokol1]

 

Sorry Sokol1, I don't understand your abbreviations. What are DED normal DED expert and WoL.

 

They are common in this forum. Look:

 

 

What is a quorum!..  A number of people.   

 

Clod MP?.... (il-2 Cliffs of Dover, the previous incarnation of il-2 series. MP = Multiplayer, Online).

 

CFS/G = Combat Flight Simulator/Game - the /Game is because with BoS their dev's* aim create a new genre: the "Combat Flight Game"  (in his own words).

 

Are you guys trying to translate the manuals from WWII Battle Tanks T-34 vs Tiger, then Steel Fury Kharkov 1*9*4*2, 

 

The two above game manuals are available online, in English - the Steel Fury have a bit "hard" language (why the reference to Rustran - no need translate or cut and past. Check in the links in this thread.

 

The table in the picture I did in Excel - no "Sumerian science" behind this simple formula. 

 

 

[Brano]

Gunny,my sources are original RKKA manuals for T-34 from 1942 and 1944.Standard soviet military publisher Voenizdat.On top of it special edition for artillery staff about 76.2mm ammunition used for field,tank and selfpropelled units.Hundreds of pages of very interesting stuff,worth several beer session discussions.

If possible,I try to avoid using internet as reference,only if the source is really good and crosschecked.There is so much lost in translation and sometimes even official documents contradict each other in some details.Go figure 

 

But the goal of this thread,and thanks to Sokol for visualisation,is to show in a simple way, how average player can easily come to the point that he can improve his gunnery skills while fighting in T-34.As it has not been explained by devs.And without too much academic walls of text.

 

Why there are more players on normal server? I dunno and it does not bother me much.Maybe its typical for average Joe/Ivan/Hans to play on average settings with some helpers/icons.It is a choice and it is always good to have them.

 

I´ve been in military and saw many soviet telescopic and periscopic gunsights of many types.Also used to rectify gunsights for APCs of soviet origin.Still have that insert-into-barrel crosshair thingy somewhere in my garage

 

...and tank simming since Panzer Commander and Panzer Elite.Those were the good old times.I hope they are coming back with IL2 franchise

[Sokol1]

As matter of curiosity, in the Russian version of Steel Fury: Kharkov 1942 manual is used the term "thousandth" - тысячным - last line, after number 4:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/uploads/monthly_12_2015/post-992-0-92799800-1449173283.jpg

 

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Are tank skins available already??

[GunnyHighway]

As matter of curiosity, in the Russian version of Steel Fury: Kharkov 1942 manual is used the term "thousandth" - тысячным - last line, after number 4:

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/uploads/monthly_12_2015/post-992-0-92799800-1449173283.jpg

 

 

As a matter of curiosity,  "Thousandth" is misspelled, it spells "Thousand", and that is a copy-pasted typo, propagated like a virus.

 

Copy pasting a document out of the World Wide Web and using it as an element of truth is dangerous.

 

Why don't you buy the game "Steel Fury: Kharkov 1942" to honor the work of the developers and modders of that outstanding game instead of copy-pasting a tiny fragment of it, which misrepresent that great game and mods.

 

Then, you will have access to a lot more document which have been corrected and the explanation of gun sights, notably the T-34/76 gun sight!....wow!... A lot of copy pasting in perspective.

 

Finally, if you do something for the English speaking community, you might want to research the custom and terms used about certain subject in that culture, to make certain to be fully understood. Hence no question asked about your work, because it is clearly understood by all.

 

Because, after all, the members of the IL-2 BOS/BOM community, deserve a reliable accurate document when it come to a Tank Gunsight Tutorial, would not you agree Sokol1? 

Edited December 4, 2015 by GunnyHighway

[BMA_West]

 

 

Finally, if you do something for the English speaking community, you might want to ...

 

Because, after all, the members of the IL-2 BOS/BOM community, deserve a reliable accurate document when it come to a Tank Gunsight Tutorial, would not you agree Sokol1? 

 

LOL

 

Sokol1 has 526 reputation points where let see now you have ...

 

Also lots of people have to make do with this  English speaking community forum without really "speaking" it because there is not that lot of choise.

 

And really we can do wthout an other pissing contest, don't we people?

Edited December 4, 2015 by West

[GunnyHighway]

Reputation points don't write documents or do research, I fail to see the connection, then I don't see a pissing context.

 

I just see a respect for accuracy for a document that is supposed to help people.

[Sokol1]

As a matter of curiosity,  "Thousandth" is misspelled, it spells "Thousand", and that is a copy-pasted typo, propagated like a virus.

 

Mr. GunnyHighway

 

First - I am not assuring that "thousandth" is right (or wrong) only that the word is used be Russians instead Miles, Mils or whatever, and be coincidence I find a page of manual in Russian language, and link - like I wrote - just as curiosity not as "proof" of anything.

 

Second - Blame the translators be wrong translation/meaning, not me (English is not my native language, as noticeable).

 

https://translate.google.com.br/?ie=UTF-8&hl=en&client=tw-ob#auto/en/%D0%A2%D1%8B%D1%81%D1%8F%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F

 

And some dictionary: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/pt/dicionario/ingles-portugues/thousandth_2?q=thousandths 

 

Why don't you buy the game "Steel Fury: Kharkov 1942" to honor the work of the developers and modders of that outstanding game instead of copy-pasting a tiny fragment of it, which misrepresent that great game and mods.

 

The page that I link: 

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2561-fajly-ot-zep/page-16#entry361367 

 

And, above I post links for the English version the same manual - available in English game forum, for free download, (this match your "moral" requisite?) so I don't need buy the game for read that manual. And for the game, I play the demo at time, and don't have major interest... 

 

BTW - I suspect that this matter are bothering you because maybe are disturbing the advertising of your Tank Gunnery Manual on sales - announced in various topics... 

 

I find a link for download of some "G u n e r y  M a n u a l  f o r  B e g i n e r s" (the space in letters is for show that I type the name and not "cut and past"  )  but the link insists in install adware/.exe: So don't be worry, I did not read this one. 

 

http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=4.0

 

Internet... 

Edited December 4, 2015 by Sokol1

[GunnyHighway]

Mr. GunnyHighway

 

First - I am not assuring that "thousandth" is right (or wrong) only that the word is used be Russians instead Miles, Mils or whatever, and be coincidence I find a page of manual in Russian language, and link - like I wrote - just as curiosity not as "proof" of anything.

 

Second - Blame the translators be wrong translation/meaning, not me (English is not my native language, as noticeable).

 

https://translate.google.com.br/?ie=UTF-8&hl=en&client=tw-ob#auto/en/%D0%A2%D1%8B%D1%81%D1%8F%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F

 

And some dictionary: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/pt/dicionario/ingles-portugues/thousandth_2?q=thousandths 

 

 

The page that I link: 

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/2561-fajly-ot-zep/page-16#entry361367 

 

And, above I post links for the English version the same manual - available in English game forum, for free download, (this match your "moral" requisite?) so I don't need buy the game for read that manual. And for the game, I play the demo at time, and don't have major interest... 

 

BTW - I suspect that this matter are bothering you because maybe are disturbing the advertising of your Tank Gunnery Manual on sales - announced in various topics... 

 

I find a link for download of some "G u n e r y  M a n u a l  f o r  B e g i n e r s" (the space in letters is for show that I type the name and not "cut and past"  )  but the link insists in install adware/.exe: So don't be worry, I did not read this one. 

 

http://graviteam.com/forum/index.php?topic=4.0

 

Internet... 

Interesting Mr. SOKOL1!...

 

"Just as curiosity" But how did you come up with the same term (thousandths) on the picture you posted "t-34-76 optics Sight TMFD-7, on your fourth post from the top called "T-34 opera resume" if it is out of curiosity?

 

BTW, English is not my native language too!...How come people assume so many things about me, when they want to appear as a victim oppressed by a nasty native English speaker?...Is that convenient or what?...Or want to suspect me other things for that matter!...Are you gonna copy-paste me with a pair of horn on my head like a red devil? 

 

I am not worried   that you did not read the "Gunnery Manual for Beginners". I write document for people to read and learn so they don't become discouraged playing Simulators or expert levels instead of playing Arcade or normal levels. I write to encourage more gamers to play simulators by explaining some operations in simulators and making them easily understandable instead of confusing. As a consequence, there will be more players in simulators, it will be more fun, and new simulator will be launched on the market. There were very few new simulators on the market this last decade.

 

You said "So don't be worry, I did not read this one   ", do you mean that you read this other one?...Because, if you did not, why would you add those two words "this one"?

 

Oh, I forgot to mention that the Steel Fury: Kharkov 1942 manual, you mentioned, was the first version when the game came out. There was another version after that, and many smaller version explaining how to use the gun sight of certain tanks. But the game needs to be purchased, to access those documents. And I know you wrote you don't have a major interest in that game, therefore, I won't bring that up again! 

 

So are we clear?... 

Edited December 4, 2015 by GunnyHighway

[Brano]

Guys,the only copyright owner is RKKA and its publisher Voenizdat

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Gunny, for the love of the KhPZ and all T-34s that ever drove over Soviet territory, quit picking fights and let people have their say on the thread without confronting them, seriously. Nothing to gain from that

[BMA_West]

Yep guy keeps going for the player not the ball ...

He gets even himself involved in Belgian polemics to, go figure :0)))

Now he is likely to get on your back Lucas, watch it LOL

Sorry OP, I do hope this gets back on topic thou

And Gunny get that chip off your sholder, stop grinding that ax too, man

Edited December 5, 2015 by West

[rlk281]

Hear, hear!

 

Yep guy keeps going for the player not the ball ...

He gets even himself involved in Belgian polemics to, go figure :0)))

Now he is likely to get on your back Lucas, watch it LOL

Sorry OP, I do hope this gets back on topic thou

And Gunny get that chip off your sholder, stop grinding that ax too, man