Bf 110 E-2 should be 601P not 601A

[FuriousMeow]

We have the Bf-110E-2 and it appears it is equipped with DB601A engines (should be DB601B, which are DB601A with different prop/engine ratio on older model 110s). However, all sources I have indicate the DB601P (DB601N with different prop/engine ratio) were used by late 1941 on all 110Es and retrofitted to 110Ds as well. I don't have the exact numbers but the E-2 was to ship with the DB601P (DB601N).

That also comes to the 109F-2, that should have the DB601N. So the development going towards the F-2 should be able to use at least the engine research to plug it into the E-2. All sources I find indicate the 110E-2 has the DB601P (DB601N with 1:1.88 instead of 1:1.55 prop/engine ratio).

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Agreed

[Bullets]

Nice work! I hope this implemented 

[Bullets]

Any word from Devs?

[bivalov]

Any word from Devs?

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/7-questions-developers/page-39?do=findComment&comment=309916

 

 

"All is correct now. You may contact =FB=ViKs for details"

 

"It's correct already. Look for rule #18 in forum rules list also, please."

 

 

[Matt]

I'll contact Viks for details I think.

[JtD]

It would be very nice if he could explain his reasons in here, or at least let you post them here.

 

While both engines were used in 110's at that time, every source I look into considers the DB601N the nominal engine. Please note that even the manual refers to the engine as DB601N, not P (and 601A, not B).

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

We have the Bf-110E-2 and it appears it is equipped with DB601A engines (should be DB601B, which are DB601A with different prop/engine ratio on older model 110s). However, all sources I have indicate the DB601P (DB601N with different prop/engine ratio) were used by late 1941 on all 110Es and retrofitted to 110Ds as well. I don't have the exact numbers but the E-2 was to ship with the DB601P (DB601N).

 

That also comes to the 109F-2, that should have the DB601N. So the development going towards the F-2 should be able to use at least the engine research to plug it into the E-2. All sources I find indicate the 110E-2 has the DB601P (DB601N with 1:1.88 instead of 1:1.55 prop/engine ratio).

The Current Bf110E-2 mounts the DB-601 Ba Engine, the low altitude version.

[LukeFF]

The Current Bf110E-2 mounts the DB-601 Ba Engine, the low altitude version.

 

No, it does not - it has the 601A.

[Matt]

I found a source which states, that both engines were used in the E variant. Because the E-1 was discribed as "Zerstörer", in addition to "Kampfflugzeug", while the E-2 was only discribed as "Kampfflugzeug", i would assume (i got no source for that), that the E-1 got priority for DB601N engines, since the higher performance at higher altitude would play a bigger part in the "Zerstörer" role.

 

If they would just switch generally from A to N engines (which some websites suggest), it would mean that they would need C3 fuel for basically the entire 110 fleet, which doesn't make much sense to me, especially for a fighter bomber / ground attack variant like the E-2. That source also states that variants with N engine carried "N" letters on the engine nacelles and there are also a few photos of E variants around without those letters. But of course the source could be wrong here.

 

So i don't think that the E-2 must have an N engine in BoM. But if anybody else has sources that proof otherwise, i guess it's best to contact Viks about it.

[FuriousMeow]

The difference between the E-1 and the E-2, aside from everything I've found stating it was the version to officially have the 601P, was that it had a dinghy housing in the tail.

 

In early 1941, January, I have data that says that the E-1 received more 601Ns than the E-2 but that is an entire year ahead of Moscow. I also see that initially the E-1 shipped with the 601A but as replaced with the 601N as they became available and that was to be for all subsequent versions.

 

This is from "The Complete book of fighters," "The Great Book of WWII Airplanes," "Hitler's LuftWaffe" and this online source for the numbers in January 1941 that sites some books: http://kurfurst.org/Engine/DB60x/DB601_datasheets_N.html

 

Also this forum post by the same Kurfurst that provided that last link: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=31381and he says that by April 1941 there were 6 Gruppen of 110s to be equipped with 601Ns. Can't use that to infer much, but considering the aforementioned sources all state that the E-2 was the version to be 601P while the E-1 was to be retrofitted as available then it would indicate the E-2 should be the 601P (N).

 

I've also seen the A/N lettering on the nacelle, and at best that just indicates a Gruppen with mixed engine aircraft - during a transitional period for example which I've seen cited before as the reason.

Edited December 2, 2015 by FuriousMeow

[JtD]

So i don't think that the E-2 must have an N engine in BoM.

There's no "must have" anywhere, you can always quote a few odd field modifications. In this case, I'd say the DB601N is a strong "should have", if it is supposed to be representative.

 

I don't really know why this issue is in FM debates in the first place, but lets digress a little further - which Bf110 units were in the BoM and later in the BoS? Any indication about what engines they had?

 

Also, I've send a PM to VikS asking him if he could spend the time to explain his reasons for the engine choice in here.

[Brano]

SKG 210 was there on Moscow approaches IIRC.

[FuriousMeow]

I put this here because it is a discussion about the plane's FM. The engine variables factor into the plane's FM, not a debate really just a discussion to find out if the sources I have are just generic garbage and everywhere I've seen are just incomplete records. I don't have the actual numbers, so I put that here because more of the individuals that do have that information tend to frequent this area of the forum.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

There's no "must have" anywhere, you can always quote a few odd field modifications. In this case, I'd say the DB601N is a strong "should have", if it is supposed to be representative.

 

I don't really know why this issue is in FM debates in the first place, but lets digress a little further - which Bf110 units were in the BoM and later in the BoS? Any indication about what engines they had?

 

Also, I've send a PM to VikS asking him if he could spend the time to explain his reasons for the engine choice in here.

 

 

Any reply from VikS yet ?

[JtD]

No, PM says it's been read, but no answer.

[JtD]

Viks has responded, and has given two secondary sources as the reason for his decision, both based on January 1941 figures. One of them is an on-line source:

 

http://kurfurst.org/Engine/DB60x/DB601_datasheets_N.html

 

As you can see, only a few of the Bf110E-2 we're getting were equipped with the DB601N at the time, while many of the E-1's were. The other source stated 68 E-1's and 7 E-2's with DB601N, a similar ratio and a low E-2 number.

 

So I guess if we want the choice to be reconsidered, a later source from the actual time frame of the BoM showing a significantly higher number of DB601N equipped E-2's would be necessary. At least for the units fighting in the BoM. I don't have it.

[Asgar]

I see if i can find anything, but we should all try to find something to proof to them that the 601N is the better choice