LA 5 take off & landing

[joblo]

 Hello, I'm new to posting on this forum, and there's something that I am at a total loss off understanding & need help with. I have watched Requiem's and also Apeoftheyear's  videos on taking off & landing in the LA 5. From watching, I see that it's possible. Even when I follow their instructions though, I can't seem to keep from spinning around in circles. The take offs & landings both result in me suddenly ground looping , no matter how hard I try to carefully manage the throttle & rudder pedals.I already know that they say to very gradually advance the throttle on take off. I still get the same result each time.There's just got to be something that I'm missing, but I just don't know what it might be. Do I need to adjust control input sensitivity?  If this is accurate, how could the Russian air force  have managed this kind of problem in real life? If I were one of their cadets, I would need to ask if they could spare 1000 aircraft for me to practice with. Anyway, does anyone have suggestions?

[Bando]

Do not forget to set the prop pitch fully forward!!

[joblo]

Thanks for the suggestion Bando. I wish that was the problem, but unfortunately I have been using the rpm governor at full fwd & the mixture at 100%, full back position & I'm still doing my ground loops. What amazes me is how easy those 2 videos make it look. 

[Bando]

Mmmm, strange. I just tested the LA5 in QM, no problem getting up.

Landing can be a problem to stay in a straight line, but with practise it can be done.

 

Taking off is the first priority. I noticed that when taking off without boost, the plane will react lively on rudder inputs, so be careful on that.

Other than this, I don't know what to say. Other planes take off without problems?

[indiaciki]

same thing flying the P-40. with unlockable tailwheel. In tha P-40 you have to apply brakes. In ROF like the Spad (tends to groundloop) you apply throttle after touchdown. I'll give it a try. Basically it's Happy feet:

 

Watch thts video on youtube (cannot be embeded) It's fantastic. The best 1h worth watching for flying taildraggers. !!!!!!!!!!!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EenHDuiPTM

 

It's the best instruction out there !

 

 

(watch the rudder in video carefully !)

 

Edited November 27, 2015 by indiaciki

[joblo]

Thanks for these tips & videos. The videos are really good.  This has been most frustrating because none of this stuff is really new to me. Whatever I'm doing wrong, I repeat it each time. I still haven't had one successful take off or landing without the ground loop in the LA5.I would send you guys a track for you to analyze if I could include an attachment in the forum.

What I've been doing for take off  is setting 20%  flaps down, full prop pitch, full mix, very, very gradually advancing the throttle with the stick all the way back, always ready for gentle rudder input. Then , somewhere between 30-40 % throttle, it always ground loops.This happens no matter how careful I try to be. One thing that confuses me a bit is in Chuck's aircraft guide. He says to keep the stick back in order to lock the tail wheel.I don't seem to be getting any tail wheel lock at all. Is  the tail wheel  supposed to lock ? I don't know, but it's hard for me to believe that my plane is any different from any of yours.  Anyway, I appreciate the advice I've been given.

[indiaciki]

Don't worry. It happens to me in a LaGG3 and the P-40 more often than I would like to. I even managed to groundloop the E-7 on take off and she's the only plane I nosed over a couple of times. Happens when switching planes

 

I was told by a taildragger pilot that you actuelly sense the side she tends to go and react then. In a sim you can only react when you see it - then it't to late.

Edited November 27, 2015 by indiaciki

[HotPursuit]

Thanks for these tips & videos. The videos are really good.  This has been most frustrating because none of this stuff is really new to me. Whatever I'm doing wrong, I repeat it each time. I still haven't had one successful take off or landing without the ground loop in the LA5.I would send you guys a track for you to analyze if I could include an attachment in the forum.

What I've been doing for take off  is setting 20%  flaps down, full prop pitch, full mix, very, very gradually advancing the throttle with the stick all the way back, always ready for gentle rudder input. Then , somewhere between 30-40 % throttle, it always ground loops.This happens no matter how careful I try to be. One thing that confuses me a bit is in Chuck's aircraft guide. He says to keep the stick back in order to lock the tail wheel.I don't seem to be getting any tail wheel lock at all. Is  the tail wheel  supposed to lock ? I don't know, but it's hard for me to believe that my plane is any different from any of yours.  Anyway, I appreciate the advice I've been given.

 

La 5 has a non-lockable tail wheel. Chucks guides are awesome, this is one little error.

 

I would suggest you try taking off on the Autumn map as the ice is very slippery on the winter map.

 

Also try starting with less fuel.

 

Prop pitch must be set to give 100% rpm.

 

Make sure you are taking off into the wind.

 

I find La 5 is no harder than taking off in other aircraft. I don't even need to use brakes to keep aligned in it. You need to use rudder corrections very early, don't wait till you are too far off course.

 

 

I hope this helps you out. GOOD LUCK!

[Jirokoh]

I also have a lot of trouble taxiing the La5, since I made my own rudder pedals, I didn't have any problem at all when I used the joystick yaw. I guess it's just a matter of getting used to it

 

Thanks for all the usefull tips and links !

[andyw248]

Admittedly landing the La-5 is a little more challenging for two reasons:

• Its tailwheel can't be locked
• Full flaps make it hard to get 3-point attitude for landing

For landing, I recorded two quick videos on the occasion of a similar discussion when the La-5 had just been released: https://youtu.be/jrNhJR7zYpE, and https://youtu.be/t-GGvBor6iw. Key points:

• Final approach speed is about 180 kph.
• Use half flaps. This will keep the aircraft at an attitude that makes it easier to make a 3-point landing.
• After touchdown, use only slight rudder input. This is because at the initially high speed during the landing roll the rudders are still very efficient. As the aircraft slows down you can gradually apply more rudder.
• Don't use the brakes until the aircraft has slowed down; if you use brakes, only do that when your rudder pedals are centered, because applying brakes when applying rudders will easily cause a ground loop.

For takeoff, as others have said make sure the prop is set to high RPM. Also, you may want to lift off the tail early since the tailwheel is not locked. The only reason for keeping the tail down at the beginning of the takeoff roll is to take advantage of a locked tailwheel but this is moot if there isn't a tailwheel lock.

[Shepherd]

Hi Mojo,

 

i agree the La5 has a different and more complicated behavior in landing than all other aircraft in BOS/BOM, no matter if team blue or red. I have no problems with the take off procedure of the La so far.

In fact, it is also possible to land her without groundloops, but even if you follow all the hints above it needs also a big portion of luck to break her down to zero without spinning around like an idiot 

In my personal opinion this machine reacts way to sensitive when getting slower than about 100 Km/h after touchdown and in most of the cases, if you realize it wants to sheer to the left or right, its too late to react, even if you apply full opposite rudder. 

The good thing is, there are many other planes which don´t have this "special" characteristic and if i were you, i wouldn't take the today's ground physics too serious. This is a great flightsim, and the FM works quite well, and i hope and believe in a few month the ground physics will get to the same level of quality. Be a little patient, this sim platform is still quite young and it would be unfair to expect everything perfect. Even Il2 1946 needed a very long time to get to the high standard it had at the end.

 

See you in the sky 

[Dakpilot]

It is difficult to explain, but you must make a concerted effort to be pro-active with a taildragger especially with unlocked tailwheel, that is if you are waiting to react it is too late, you need constant movement on rudder so you are in charge and reacting to your own inputs rather than the aircraft

 

As control authority gets less the reaction is lazy and you must anticipate your previous inputs, be the boss and show that aircraft who is in charge (but in a delicate manner)

 

When you crack it, it is a bit like first riding a bicycle or the feeling of suddenly being able to repeatedly do decent landings without thinking too hard about it

 

although it is hard and will take practice this is one of the things I like about BoS and reflects my experience IRL, practice will eventually lead to that 'eureka' moment, if you put a highly competent GA pilot in an LA-5 he would also struggle in a similar manner without serious instruction

 

BoS's hard learning curve can be very frustrating but has an authentic feel that is not present in some other flight sims, and for that I commend it, but also for not being unrealistically hard. It is not perfect but at/near the top of the pile compared to other experiences

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[joblo]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I appreciate all the help  you have given. Unfortunately, I still have to report back that I have been unable to make it off the ground for a take off in this plane. I have tried at least a few hundred times (maybe closer to a thousand times). That's why I have been silent for a few days. I've been trying and trying again. I have checked for control conflicts and found none. I have tried every technique I can possibly think of, and this plane will always ground loop before it gets up the speed to lift its tail wheel. I've tried gentle rudder input , pre take off roll rudder input, more forceful rudder input, no rudder input, gradual acceleration, normal acceleration, releasing brakes at full throttle .  I get the same each time. So I just don't know what to think. Did I buy a different version of the LA 5  from the rest of you guys?  I've been able to conquer take offs and landings in the other  BOS planes & also in the DCS Dora & 109 , which took some learning time.The DCS planes take a lot of concentration, but I can actually see a difference in  any control input changes. This LA5 though, I just have to give up on until I get some kind of epiphany. But anyway, I appreciate how  willingly helpful you guys have been.

[Jirokoh]

Maybe Try adding some opposite rudder trim ? I don't know if it will help, but maybe it could be an idea ?

[Weegie]

I was flying with MoJo yesterday

 

I also find the La 5 and the Lagg 3 very tricky to take off and land the La 5 being the more difficult of the 2.

 

Thanks for all the tips too..................The downside is this thread has not done much for my pilot's ego

[Requiem]

Mojo, how about recording a short track of you attempting to take off then uploading it in this thread. It's much easier to figure out what's wrong that way otherwise it's all guesswork.

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

Try full back stick, slamming the throttle forward to 100% and then easing off back stick when it gets up to speed, counter with rudder (of course). I think it just needs the airflow over the tail to keep it straight, Don't know if that is realistic or not but it seems to work in game. 

[Gump]

heh....i gave up "slow throttle advance" on TO with this thing - loops every time.

...on TO, i will firewall the throttle and watch (VERY CAREFULLY) for a yaw - the 1st few seconds require almost full opposite rudder (to prop torque yaw) and, when the plane starts responding to rudder input to straighten back out, rudder control must be VERY CAREFUL to avoid looping the opposite way. TO seems to be the easiest ground maneuver to overcome the loop if using 100% throttle/100% prop because the motor pulls fwd (some torque yaw) and provides tail control.

.

the LA-5 ground loop sequence begins very early in the yaw, so even the slightest yaw movements must be reacted to early, especially when the motor is not 100%. once the thing starts spinning, you cant stop it - best to just kill the throttle and hang on for the ride.

.

BRAKES will 'dampen' the loops, and help avoid them when going slower. free-wheeling wheels are easiest to loop. i avoid the brakes on TO, but use them extensively on taxi and landing.

.

TAXI: DO NOT TRY TO TAXI this plane FAST! .... GO SLOW!!!! and use the brakes ALL THE TIME. it might seem like you are taking forever to get there, but you will get there much faster than trying to recover from loops that put you in the grass. you CAN avoid loops when taxiing slowly using brakes. just concentrate on keep the nose straight. and avoid those yo-yo-yaw overreactions (experience helps here) - but going slow with brakes minimizes this.

.

LANDING: this is the hardest thing to do in this plane (prolly hardest thing in any plane duh) but you will have to do this less than taxi/TO, since this requires not getting shot down. i agree it seems to require much luck not to loop on landing. too much brakes and you will nose-over. ...here are som things that help make success a little more likely...

brakes: use liberally, but watch for the nose over. it helps to have brakes on rudder pedals (i dont), as landing (as does taxi) seems to require 3 or 4 hands if you must brake with hands

throttle: this is difficult and takes practice, but it helps keep air flow over the tail. the la5 seems to loop every time on landing without any throttle. especially as it slows down. but too much throttle and you cant stop.

flaps: if you have deployed flaps for landing (i always do), it helps to retract them once you touch down - this is a general rule for all aircraft. it helps keep the plane on the ground as it reduces the lift that the flaps add.

.

finally: MASTER THE LOOP. anyone who flys the LA5 regularly gets the 'feel' of the loop in this plane. it usually spins around in a complete 360. i find that, most of the time, the plane will spin around and point in the general direction it started in when taxiing or begin TO, i just reduce throttle till it comes around to zero, then burst the throttle a bit and back off when the fwd momentum begins again (usually a very short burst). on landing, the plane tends to end up rolling backwards a lot, wherein i just apply brakes and sometimes throttle, and just hold on and wait for it to stop. it seems that the LA5 ground loop is something that is going to happen, and the LA5 pilot has to learn to cope with it. after a while, it becomes like a familiar personality quirk that gives the plane banter-like character. kind of like a codgety friend that lovingly insults you when come through the door. (reference "gran torino" with clint eastwood).

... 

[Weegie]

Well I've mastered the takeoff.

 

All the advice here has been invaluable for me, many, many thanks.

 

The problems I had when practicing the takeoff from the Quick Mission were

 

1) On the runway, no flaps set now taking off with 20 deg

2) The trim settings are absolute pants and my main problem. I now set them all neutral.....................although if any of you guys' think different only too willing to listen

3) As mentioned here mixture & prop pitch 100%

4) Stick back to hold the tail down and put pressure on the tailwheel

5) At the moment not firewalling the throttle but opening it to close to 100% pretty smartly

6) Eyes pretty much glued to the turn indicator until I get some speed up

 

Cannot believe now how easy it is for me

 

I've sent MoJo an email, so we shall see if it helps him too

 

Now the landing and I'm terrified already

 

Once again did I say THANKS!!!

[joblo]

Yes! The yaw & pitch trimmers aren't set to neutral by default. By resetting them to neutral, I can finally keep the plane going straight down the runway & actually get off the ground! The trimmers  (in this case, for this plane) are still a bit of a mystery to me. They seem to have a very big effect on take off. When I start a quick mission in the air at 500m  though, they seem to have no effect on my pitch or heading. The main thing is that I can finally take off now though ,so that's a major breakthrough. Like Ventus says, it's not yet time to get too cocky, we  both still have to get the hang of landing the LA5.

Thanks for all the help with this.

[Gump]

i dont mess with any trims before takeoff.... but i have a large dead zone set for my yaw axis (stick has noise in this area). hmmm.