without air knights

[XQ_Lothar29]

Hi Friends and Pilots.

 

Lately, I'm discovering, that new generations of Virtual pilots not know respect among fighter pilots, that makes me into a kind of emptiness, in which I and many veteran pilots knew not seem to convey the idea of the true spirit of air combat.

 

I remember with melancholy days, when you already have destroyed the enemy aircraft, you simply going for another.

 

The important thing was not to harm the driver, otherwise the plane.

 

Many will wonder, why I say these things.

 

It is very simple, lately I find guys flying, they have torn my plane impacts, and I just go back from combat, I think already been enough. and when I confuses, they are chasing behind me, until I killed my pilot ..

 

the latter case is very curious:

 

La 5 comes after me "6 Oclock", my Bf109 E7 impacts in fuel tank, nothing Significan, decided to fight thinking that when gasoline reaches reservation, leave the fight.

I get to the end, turn to the situation, and make the enemy very hard impacts, while almost could no longer maintain engine power.

I think I left enough clear combat and decide to leave dogfight, giving tied for fight. to my surprise, when I last to prove that withdrew me, he begins to pursue without notice and not just settled for damage my plane, but not to Stop, strike me until kill my pilot .. 

 

It may be that I was part of a type of pilot, in danger of extinction.

 

I often ask, would have been in the history of aviation without acts like so many history in WWI and WWII pilots of all countries

they forgave enemies or fight had finished greeting as they leave instead of fighting.

 

we have so many examples

 

This know all: Charlie Brown and Franz Stigler

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Brown_and_Franz_Stigler_incident

 

 

 

Other example Last Luftwaffe pilot in life

 

 

One of the most outstanding aces of the Luftwaffe and the last of the living Knights Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords, Erich Rudorffer.
He made more than a thousand sorties, conducted 302 air battles, won 222 victories, 60 of them on the western front, 26 in North Africa and 136 in the Eastern fronte.Krome of Rudorffer can be considered a real world record holder in several categories. November 6, 1943, he shot down 13 planes in one sortie, which neither before nor after, could not make anybody. In addition, among Rudorfferom downed during the war planes listed 58 Il-2, which is a record of the Luftwaffe.
In an interview Rudorffer told one of the most memorable stories from the war:
"... One day - I think it happened August 31, 1940 - I fought over Dover with four" Hurricanes. "Later, when the fight was over, I, crossing the English Channel on the way home, he noticed another" Hurricane "flying from Calais. The plane was apparently heavily damaged and left a thick band of smoke. I fell in beside him and accompanied him to England itself, and then shook his wings in farewell. A few weeks later the same thing happened to have with me ".

 

 

and many examples that could not stop

 

I would like to know the opinion of all present pilots here

 

Thx and I hope to continue to enjoy the flight with you, but with more knights

 

 

Salud Lothar29

Edited November 10, 2015 by Bearcat

[DD_Arthur]

 

the latter case is very curious:

 

La 5 comes after me "6 Oclock", my Bf109 E7 impacts in fuel tank, nothing Significan, decided to fight thinking that when gasoline reaches reservation, leave the fight.

I get to the end, turn to the situation, and make the enemy very hard impacts, while almost could no longer maintain engine power.

I think I left enough clear combat and decide to leave dogfight, giving tied for fight. to my surprise, when I last to prove that withdrew me, he begins to pursue without notice and not just settled for damage my plane, but not to Stop, strike me until kill my pilot .. 

 

 

 

Let me get this straight;  someone shot you up,  you managed to get some shots into him but when you wanted to disengage he didn't let you but shot you down?

 

Er............................

 

A couple of points;

 

1)  This is a video game.  We are merely chasing pixels.  This game really has nothing to do with any reality and is certainly not worth getting upset about.

 

2)  I'd take all tales of chivalry in any war with a large pinch of salt.  War is about killing and little else and the longer they go on the bloodier and more ruthless they become.

[XQ_Lothar29]

Let me get this straight;  someone shot you up,  you managed to get some shots into him but when you wanted to disengage he didn't let you but shot you down?

 

Er............................

 

A couple of points;

 

1)  This is a video game.  We are merely chasing pixels.  This game really has nothing to do with any reality and is certainly not worth getting upset about.

 

2)  I'd take all tales of chivalry in any war with a large pinch of salt.  War is about killing and little else and the longer they go on the bloodier and more ruthless they become.

not exactly happen that way. but my English is not better express

 

we know that is a "SIMULATOR" ..

 

Would have to teach video,, I mean I had won peel, and decide to go, I see badly damaged plane, because I have no more destroy or kill pilot 

 

Then I answer better, I have to go

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

another tread that discuss the same issue

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/7220-do-you-fly-honor/

[9./JG27golani79]

I think a little decency or respect towards other players - even in games - wouldn´t hurt anybody.

Edited November 10, 2015 by 9./JG27golani79

[Sokol1]

Let me get this straight;  someone shot you up,  you managed to get some shots into him but when you wanted to disengage he didn't let you but shot you down?

 

Er............................

 

 

Better say: someone shoot he - then he decide stay on fight until he fuel don't reach reserve, and maybe kill a enemy or two - but when decide disengage the enemy should provide escort for he... 

 

That's a game, I will shoot your plane to the last piece and try cut your parachute wires with my wing type (depending of my mood).   

Edited November 10, 2015 by Sokol1

[kaboki]

I think the romantic idea of chivalry is just [Edited] and was just a part of the propaganda machine(to make the war look less ugly to the public), may happend a few times but I don't belive it was the norm, even the famous Red Baron was a cold hearted killer .

Edited November 11, 2015 by Bearcat

[PatrickAWlson]

I think the romantic idea of chivalry is just bullshit and was just a part of the propaganda machine(to make the war look less ugly to the public), may happend a few times but I don't belive it was the norm, even the famous Red Baron was a cold hearted killer .

 

Which is why he was so good.  He made sure of his victories, so much so that even after the most intense scrutiny his bad claim rate is barely 5% (20% - 50% is more normal in WWI).

[Sandhill]

Enemy planes and their pilots are assets which your enemy uses to kill your friends and degrade your assets.  To not destroy an enemy asset when you have the opportunity to do so is treasonous.  In the game it really makes no difference, but in real life allowing an enemy pilot to fly home is providing aid to the enemy.  I can understand not having the stomach to kill a guy dangling defenseless from a parachute, but really, the only good enemy plane is a destroyed plane, and the only good enemy pilot is at least unable to fly.

[Y-29.Silky]

Enemy planes and their pilots are assets which your enemy uses to kill your friends and degrade your assets.

But this is a flight sim video game. The assets are going to replenish the next hour.

 

 

@Lothar29 - I call it the War Thunder Syndrome. Many new pilots come from that game where they need the instant gratification.

 

I think the romantic idea of chivalry is just bullshit and was just a part of the propaganda machine(to make the war look less ugly to the public), may happend a few times but I don't belive it was the norm, even the famous Red Baron was a cold hearted killer .

And this is also common - undermining the actual pilots who fought in the war whether it be about kills or honor.

 

Manfred...

The Englishman landed close to one of our squadrons. I was so excited that I landed also and in my eagerness, I nearly smashed up my machine. The English airplane and my own stood close together. I had shot the engine to pieces and both the pilot and observer were severely wounded.

 

As you see, he did not make extra passes like everyone does in this game.

[senseispcc]

More and more people have difficulty to make difference between reality and games in reality there was seldom chivalry between enemies but in games why not? The one how thinks that real war even in the air was a war for gentlemen’s are greatly mistaken most of the time war in the air is the same horror than the war on the ground or on the sea.  

So this is like always a choise between realism and fairplay? You chose or better said your choise!  

Edited November 10, 2015 by senseispcc

[XQ_Lothar29]

If I let living my opponent, and that is very frequent in my ..

 

because others can not do the same?

 

the goal is to destroy the enemy? Yes

 

but with a dogfight clean, is equal if it surprises me, for me 6Oc and burn my airplane.

 

but what I mean, if I forgive your plane because you can not do anything, and I tied for combat, because then tries to kill if or when the pilot? this is no longer simulate? that's fanaticism punctuation be first if you or if you !!

one has dogfight has broken and landing plane, but I feel winner finished him off until pilot killed, and even when Flight Simulator says you're winning battle.. Lothar shotdown or kill XXXXX28.. strafing and continues to kill or exploit your plane?

 

I do not understand, I was taught when I enlisted in Escuadron69, to respect enemy once on the ground, including takeoffs and very hard damage in enemy aicraft..

 

As I said, I and the people we respect this gentleman mutual agreement, we are in danger of extinction

 

Salute.. Lothar29 

 

PS: I remember not so long ago, the minimum respect among pilots was saying Chat, S! or Salute!  "in BoS, one out of ten"

Edited November 10, 2015 by Lothar29

[Trooper117]

Just like real life... there are people who live by a decent moral code... and then there are others that live by a different set of rules.

People don't change just because they are playing a game.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I don't particularly care what someone else does to me, I'm the kind who will always turn myself into a valid target by trying to attack anyway with my smoking plane with a missing aileron and shot up stabilizer. If they don't shoot me down I can ruin their day so I recommend anyone to down me quick

 

Just a bit of perspective though for those who want to fly realistic and seem to understand the 'war is hell' premise: your commander will find you much, much more useful if instead of blowing everything to bits you force the enemy to crash land behind your lines. That way your troops can capture the pilot for intel, and your regiment gets a trophy enemy aircraft to test and such. The "blow it up" mentality is decades old, nothing to do with War Thunder. It's just wiser in my opinion to spend your time and ammunition damaging 4 planes and forcing them to disengage than chasing one for a confirmed kill.

 

If the ones you damaged are still flying home, just slide behind them and knock out their engine or whatever you like. Then they either crash land or bail, and you can move on to the other easy pickings. I always feel a little bad when I get a pilot kill while trying to force them to parachute, it feels overkill.

 

Trooper is correct here though.

[XQ_Lothar29]

Just like real life... there are people who live by a decent moral code... and then there are others that live by a different set of rules.

People don't change just because they are playing a game.

Man, the best I've seen .. Thanks

I don't particularly care what someone else does to me, I'm the kind who will always turn myself into a valid target by trying to attack anyway with my smoking plane with a missing aileron and shot up stabilizer. If they don't shoot me down I can ruin their day so I recommend anyone to down me quick

 

Just a bit of perspective though for those who want to fly realistic and seem to understand the 'war is hell' premise: your commander will find you much, much more useful if instead of blowing everything to bits you force the enemy to crash land behind your lines. That way your troops can capture the pilot for intel, and your regiment gets a trophy enemy aircraft to test and such. The "blow it up" mentality is decades old, nothing to do with War Thunder. It's just wiser in my opinion to spend your time and ammunition damaging 4 planes and forcing them to disengage than chasing one for a confirmed kill.

 

If the ones you damaged are still flying home, just slide behind them and knock out their engine or whatever you like. Then they either crash land or bail, and you can move on to the other easy pickings. I always feel a little bad when I get a pilot kill while trying to force them to parachute, it feels overkill.

 

Trooper is correct here though.

You also have very good definition of it as it is

[kaboki]

Why does it have to be chivalry in games? Is the virtual life really that important that when being shoot to pieces we have to go on the forums and complain about being killed and that people have no honor etc etc:p. Get over it, it's just a video game/sim.

 

Personally I prefer being killed right away, rather than being wounded and have to fly all the way back home, being killed instantly just get me faster back up in the air for my revenge:p. That's why I always try not too kill my enemies because then I know that it will take some time before he get back up, wich means one less enemy to worry about for a while:D. Oh I just realised Im really a knight , but only because it benefits my team . In a real war I would made sure that enemy pilot never saw the day of light again because it would benefit my side more than having that pilot back up in the air again....

[ShamrockOneFive]

It's an interesting topic and one worth some consideration. My perspective on this in multiplayer game/simulation is highly dependent on the kind of scenario I'm playing.

 

If I'm playing a coop style event where the mission outcome and the return of as many planes back to bad at the end is the goal... Then I'll fly the objective and that means damaging enemy aircraft to put them out of the fight but very little interest in scoring huge numbers of kills.

 

If it's a dogfight scenario where my goal is to do fight to win. Then my goal will be to eliminate the enemy with no chance that they may turn around and shoot me down. Shoot to kill for sure.

 

A dogfight mode is highly competitive and I'll play to win. It's. It real life and my virtual life doesn't matter too much either.

 

It's context specific. In a real WWII combat situation the pilot will fly more like my first example than my second. It's rarely about scoring kills there... It's the mission and survival.

[XQ_Lothar29]

Why does it have to be chivalry in games? Is the virtual life really that important that when being shoot to pieces we have to go on the forums and complain about being killed and that people have no honor etc etc:p. Get over it, it's just a video game/sim.

 

Personally I prefer being killed right away, rather than being wounded and have to fly all the way back home, being killed instantly just get me faster back up in the air for my revenge:p. That's why I always try not too kill my enemies because then I know that it will take some time before he get back up, wich means one less enemy to worry about for a while:D. Oh I just realised Im really a knight , but only because it benefits my team . In a real war I would made sure that enemy pilot never saw the day of light again because it would benefit my side more than having that pilot back up in the air again....

and cunning to be a good pilot and plane to bring home, land, create an idea in your head as if it were actually Pilot  at that moment?

the simulation not only create the Developers, the simulation we created among all

[Trooper117]

There was a time a few years back when I was always flying online with my online squadron... back then I went online because for me it was all about achieving the objective, flying as part of a team and employing the correct WWII tactics and doctrine.

The whole emphasis was achieving the aim, and getting as many of the team back alive as possible... and of course, having fun with like minded friends who had the same love of WWII aviation... it was never, ever about just getting kills.

 

Having said that, even back then when we were flying the large IL2 wars on hyperlobby, there were people who didn't play to the same standards as ourselves, but that is life!

Online, then, just as today, you will get a cross section of the world community who will play the game the way they want, and we are all different.

[Y-29.Silky]

Why does it have to be chivalry in games? Is the virtual life really that important that when being shoot to pieces we have to go on the forums and complain about being killed and that people have no honor etc etc:p. Get over it, it's just a video game/sim.

We all understand your stance on chivalry in the game, I don't get upset every time it happens but how often it happens, gets annoying and there's those instances where it's clear you're not going to make it back, sometimes another enemy already received credit and some other enemy will dive in.

 

In WoL server, they actually keep stats for your current pilot. They get reset if he dies becomes PoW by bailing out behind enemy lines.  I care about my virtual pilot. He is my virtual life!

I don't know if it's just me, but setting a heavily damaged bird on the ground softly is quite rewarding. 

 

> In a real war I would made sure that enemy pilot never saw the day of light again because it would benefit my side more than having that pilot back up in the air again.

I disagree  lol. You'd care more about your own life.

[kaboki]

Whatever guys, in this game Im a freaking knight in shining bloody armor and never make second passes on someone that is put out of the fight, I let them fly home:p. But that doesn't mean I need to "force" everyone else to behave/play that way. I don't care being killed while trying to escape home severly wounded, and certainly have no need going on forums bitching and whining about it. Everyone has different playstyles and I respect that, no need to call it "War Thunder syndrome", happend long before War Thunder existed and Im guessing some people have always played that way. Why can't they, they paid just as much for this game as everyone else and can choose exactly how they want to play it...

[Cybermat47]

 > In a real war I would made sure that enemy pilot never saw the day of light again because it would benefit my side more than having that pilot back up in the air again.[/size]

I disagree  lol. You'd care more about your own life.

I agree 100%, Silky.

[15[Span.]/JG51Costa]

PS: I remember not so long ago, the minimum respect among pilots was saying Chat, S! or Salute! "in BoS, one out of ten"

 

 

Hi Lothar.

I feel a bit like you.

wen I see black smoke on a enemy plane I live him alone thinking that he will try to arrive to a homebase, then most of the times I realice that he is following me

And I don´t shoot pilots in shutes.

I allso mis some S! GK! GJob! at this times...​

 

Saludos

Costa

Edited November 11, 2015 by 15[Span.]/JG51Costa

[BraveSirRobin]

If you're shot to pieces and want to make it home alive, bail out.  If you don't bail out, you are fair game.

[Cybermat47]

If you're shot to pieces and want to make it home alive, bail out.  If you don't bail out, you are fair game.

If I want to get home alive, and I'm on the Eastern Front, especially Stalingrad, the last thing I'd be doing would be bailing out over enemy lines.

[Jaws2002]

 

 

 

La 5 comes after me "6 Oclock", my Bf109 E7 impacts in fuel tank, nothing Significan, decided to fight thinking that when gasoline reaches reservation, leave the fight.

I get to the end, turn to the situation, and make the enemy very hard impacts, while almost could no longer maintain engine power.

I think I left enough clear combat and decide to leave dogfight, giving tied for fight. to my surprise, when I last to prove that withdrew me, he begins to pursue without notice and not just settled for damage my plane, but not to Stop, strike me until kill my pilot .. 

 

 

 

You are damaged and stick around in the combat area.  To get one more kill maybe? I do that too, but I don't expect mercy or special treatment. If I mess up it's all on me. I'll laugh it off and restart.

 It didn't work out for you. Tough luck. Get another plane and start again.

 

Once I spawned a plane on the field, I'm a valid target.     In your case, you were flying in combat area, you are a perfectly valid target.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Jaws2002

[Dave]

I think the romantic idea of chivalry is just bullshit and was just a part of the propaganda machine(to make the war look less ugly to the public), may happend a few times but I don't belive it was the norm, even the famous Red Baron was a cold hearted killer .

Richthofen would only attack with vast numerical superiority, with a large altitude advantage, against inferior and lighter armed opponents. He was also well known for cutting out weaker targets for an easier kill. There is no "fair" in war - period.

 

I'm personally getting tired of complaints by people who pick a fight and feel hard done by when someone else ends it.

"The important thing was not to harm the pilot" say the guys with multiple 20mm cannon firing HE ammunition.

 

Basically if you don't want to "virtually" die, fight more carefully.

 

My dad taught me many many years ago "don't point a gun at someone you don't mean to kill". And likewise, if someone shoots at me I will assume they are shooting to kill and will do my damnedest to kill him first.

 

I generally don't get to choose to disengage, as I always fly VVS. For that reason I don't allow Germans to disengage just because s$%t hasn't gone their way. 

[Dave]

and cunning to be a good pilot and plane to bring home, land, create an idea in your head as if it were actually Pilot  at that moment?

the simulation not only create the Developers, the simulation we created among all

I agree completely.

But, for me at least, part of that achievement is escape and evasion - if I am shot down trying to escape I didn't earn it.

Get this idea out of your head that in any war it was normal practice to "knock it off" after one guy gets a bloody nose.

 

I never seem to need to explain this to the 6 109's chasing me, spewing black smoke, all the way back to my airfield, who then pat each other on the back after a successful strafing pass during my landing rollout.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Dave

[johncage]

well typically it's because behind the monitor screens of the other players are not "air knights", but 15 year old kids most of the time that accounts for the behavior.

[Cybermat47]

well typically it's because behind the monitor screens of the other players are not "air knights", but 15 year old kids most of the time that accounts for the behavior.

Really? The majority of players seem to be in the age range of 20-60. In fact, I'm fairly certain that I'm the youngest person here, at 16 years old.

[Y-29.Silky]

 

PS: I remember not so long ago, the minimum respect among pilots was saying Chat, S! or Salute!  "in BoS, one out of ten"

 

I rarely see this anymore. And two nights ago I gave a "S!" to I won't mention his name but he was all snarky and told me to take the Salute back because I was flying the best aircraft in the game.. 

.. Which happened to be a G-2 with wing mounted gunpods. 

It's sad to see the community going this far down in the toilet bowl. 

 

 

Really? The majority of players seem to be in the age range of 20-60. In fact, I'm fairly certain that I'm the youngest person here, at 16 years old.

 

It's moreso people acting like they're 15. Or in better terms, people act like it's a "video game" where you "stat rack" and get mad if you're not getting a good Kill/Death ratio, vs a "simulator" where you're there to simply enjoy "flying" and completing "objectives". 

 

Know what I mean.. 

[Cybermat47]

It's moreso people acting like they're 15. Or in better terms, people act like it's a "video game" where you "stat rack" and get mad if you're not getting a good Kill/Death ratio, vs a "simulator" where you're there to simply enjoy "flying" and completing "objectives". 

 

Know what I mean..

 

People like that are just unbearable. If I'm not getting a good K/D ratio, I don't start insulting people, I just try to have fun anyway.

[Feathered_IV]

I can think of several occasions where I've set an aircraft to smoking, the other guy has disengaged and I've then flown along beside them. It takes all sorts I suppose.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

There are only to comments I'll echo here from "Do You Fly With Honor". First since I've seen REAL combat, this is a game or Competition for points where many won't even return to base or try to land. Secondly, this all boils down to a personal choice and thusly does not make them a hero or a villain. Yes it is disheartening to be shot down in certain circumstances, but, it is the point of the game isn't it? 

 

Chief

[wtornado]

Once I get an aircraft smoking I usually disengage.

 

Half of them do not make it back to base anyways.

[senseispcc]

Chivalry means bashing your opponents into the ground because you are the strongest and have the best armament specially if your opponent was a poor peasant with a stick and you in full armor with a war horse, spear and sword made of the best steel without forgetting twenty years of practice.

But please do not kill the men of arms, the knight is not your equal and if killed it is a big loss for the civilized world.

Over the centuries this way of thinking remains but the knight is only chivalrous in thoughts not in acts.

In a game it is possible in reality and in war it is fantaisy.  

 

[BraveSirRobin]

If I want to get home alive, and I'm on the Eastern Front, especially Stalingrad, the last thing I'd be doing would be bailing out over enemy lines.

 

The Russian front was so large that the front lines were very spread out.  Getting home after bailing out behind enemy lines was not unusual at all.

[Cybermat47]

There are only to comments I'll echo here from "Do You Fly With Honor". First since I've seen REAL combat, this is a game or Competition for points where many won't even return to base or try to land. Secondly, this all boils down to a personal choice and thusly does not make them a hero or a villain. Yes it is disheartening to be shot down in certain circumstances, but, it is the point of the game isn't it? 

 

Chief

I agree. At the most, behaviour in this game can be seen as considerate or inconsiderate. The game just isn't important enough for honour to be a factor.

[707shap_Srbin]

 

One of the most outstanding aces of the Luftwaffe and the last of the living Knights Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords, Erich Rudorffer.

He made more than a thousand sorties, conducted 302 air battles, won 222 victories, 60 of them on the western front, 26 in North Africa and 136 in the Eastern fronte. Krome of Rudorffer can be considered a real world record holder in several categories. November 6, 1943, he shot down 13 planes in one sortie, which neither before nor after, could not make anybody. In addition, among Rudorfferom downed during the war planes listed 58 Il-2, which is a record of the Luftwaffe.

 

 

Offtopic, but...

On 6 november, he claimed 13 Yak's, + 5 were claimed by his wingman. Detailed description of combat.

VVS lost 5 YaK to all reasons (AAA, fighters and Ju87 gunners).

 

And same exaggerated overclaim is seen in Rudorffers claims in West, East, Afrika...

Edited November 11, 2015 by 1./ZG1_Panzerbar

[XQ_Lothar29]

Attesting that this question is friendly

 

I understand the position of many, I still think it's best to behave honorably in a war, if not because there were so many judgments after the war?

because it allegedly did not behave with some chivalry in war is expected.

Even in war there are rules! that we want to continue or not, it's something else.

 

For me, to become clear

 

It was it just wanted to see how many people currently believed that minimum shoot down after to make a S! or Salute! for chat

 

Salute all Pilots, see you in this Beautifull Flight Simulator 

Edited November 11, 2015 by Lothar29