Y-29.Silky Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 It's kind of funny that no one ever questions German flight models unless it's an underperforming issue. 2
BraveSirRobin Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) Not to mention that the bomber flight models are, apparently, all perfect. That is an amazing accomplishment! Edited October 7, 2015 by BraveSirRobin 1
SCG_Space_Ghost Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 It's kind of funny that no one ever questions German flight models unless it's an underperforming issue. Nope, some have pointed out the over-performance of the F-4... I do so regularly. What's really kind of funny is how people bring up Luftwaffe over-performance any time VVS over-performance is brought up. It's like the presentation of opposing viewpoints makes their skin crawl... Dissonance. This has nothing to do with whose airforce is "better" or whose engineering was "finer" as far as anybody with any sense of reason should be concerned. It has everything to do with the accuracy and historicity of the FMs. 5
Matt Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 It's kind of funny that no one ever questions German flight models unless it's an underperforming issue. The too fast Bf 109 F-4 gets mentioned quite regularly. Most recently in this very topic on page 1.
KoN_ Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 You were practically the whole time the best target someone can think of. The russian simply did have ZERO shooting skills. So sorry to disapoint you Winger , i shall delete .
SR-F_Winger Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) So sorry to disapoint you Winger , i shall delete . No offence. Sorry if it came over like that. I am not saying you did fly bad. The opposite is the case. Your vid shows that you can control the plane very well! I can only repeat. The 190, just like the 109 is a coffin if you got a russian with only decent skill on oyur six. Go ahead and load the DCS World Edge beta. Hop into a 190 or the K4 and youll see what i mean. The FMs there are FAR more believable. The YAK here flies like a sopwith camel from ROF minus the stallcharacteristics and instability, plus hardly any energyloss in maneuvers and guns that practically have ZERO dispersion. Edited October 8, 2015 by Winger
System87 Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 If these issues would be ever fixed we would have at least some historical performacne of these planes. As it is now we got balanced game. I think no one plays a flightsim for balance, but for historical accuracy!
KoN_ Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 No offence. Sorry if it came over like that. I am not saying you did fly bad. The opposite is the case. Your vid shows that you can control the plane very well! I can only repeat. The 190, just like the 109 is a coffin if you got a russian with only decent skill on oyur six. Go ahead and load the DCS World Edge beta. Hop into a 190 or the K4 and youll see what i mean. The FMs there are FAR more believable. The YAK here flies like a sopwith camel from ROF minus the stallcharacteristics and instability, plus hardly any energyloss in maneuvers and guns that practically have ZERO dispersion. No probs , i hear what your saying , i was damaged and was chased all the way back to airfield , your right i had a hard time keeping that bird up and even the slightest change in direction was giving me a hard time . IMHO i dont think they will change the YAk FM. Best thing to do is fly as a team and tobe honest thats how i like to fly on here . working together 109 and 190 . Even bombers dont get the escort they should , The stats are not good either to many pilots want that kill ratio , which is *BS* , should be based around team work and who won the map / battle . All have agood weekend . see you in the skies .
Alkyan Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 You guys should just not be allow to whine anymore before coming back with a decent kill death ratio in the yack on wing of liberty. Sometime when I play chess against the computer with the white piece I feel that the blacks are better. And I'm not arguing that everything is right in the planes fm, but my kill/D ratio in 109 is 10 while its 1 in yack.
System87 Posted October 11, 2015 Author Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) K/D 10 in 109 WOW!! you are so awsome!!! No one is whining here i made this thread simply to ask for tips so i dont get cought by russians in a dive. Edited October 11, 2015 by EG14_System87
Wulf Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 Ema, that's very good flying. I may not be able to do it but I can sure recognise it when I see it. I assume you have TIR. Do you use the 'Hat switch' to supplement your rear views? Maybe it's just my set-up but I find the best rear view in the 190 is obtained by using the left and right rear Hat positions. Hard to tell such things on recorded tracks sometimes.
Alkyan Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) sorry for the ridiculous bragging which is likely to be exaggerated but it piss me off a little a little when some say that the 109 is that bad in this game And I use my mouse to look around, works really well for me Edited October 11, 2015 by Alkyan
6./ZG26_Emil Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 I see the uber flaps didn't work out for him :D
ema33ig Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) Ema, that's very good flying. I may not be able to do it but I can sure recognise it when I see it. I assume you have TIR. Do you use the 'Hat switch' to supplement your rear views? Maybe it's just my set-up but I find the best rear view in the 190 is obtained by using the left and right rear Hat positions. Hard to tell such things on recorded tracks sometimes. Hey Wulf, thx Yes, i have Trackir. No use "Hat Switch". I check my 6 intuitively and use the Rudder + Joystick. Edited October 11, 2015 by ema33ig
SR-F_Winger Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) sorry for the ridiculous bragging which is likely to be exaggerated but it piss me off a little a little when some say that the 109 is that bad in this game And I use my mouse to look around, works really well for me Noone says the 109 is bad. The 190 sucks and the YAK is an UFO:P Edited October 11, 2015 by Winger
Y-29.Silky Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 The 190, just like the 109 is a coffin if you got a russian with only decent skill on oyur six. The 109? You gotta be kidding me. Go ahead and load the DCS World Edge beta. Hop into a 190 or the K4 and youll see what i mean. The FMs there are FAR more believable. You're comparing late 1944 aircraft with 1942 aircraft. Regardless in DCS it's still the same gameplay; recently chased an ATAG guy in his 190 across the damn map for 20 minutes even though he had every advantage over my 51. -------------------- My point being through out this whole thread, people who mainly fly Germany are ALWAYS playing the victim without looking at their own decision making and fact of the matter is 90% of the time, the more aggressive pilot will come out alive. "LSP" - Luftwaffe Space Program "LVS" - Luftwaffe Victimisation Syndrome .. Two phrases I'll never stop saying. 1
SR-F_Winger Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) The 109? You gotta be kidding me. You're comparing late 1944 aircraft with 1942 aircraft. Regardless in DCS it's still the same gameplay; recently chased an ATAG guy in his 190 across the damn map for 20 minutes even though he had every advantage over my 51. -------------------- My point being through out this whole thread, people who mainly fly Germany are ALWAYS playing the victim without looking at their own decision making and fact of the matter is 90% of the time, the more aggressive pilot will come out alive. "LSP" - Luftwaffe Space Program "LVS" - Luftwaffe Victimisation Syndrome .. Two phrases I'll never stop saying. Nope. Once you have a UFO on your six youre toast if the russki is a decent shot. NoDispersionLaserguns. I flew YAK agian on WOL today. Heh i almost felt sorry for the poor germans i toasted. Leave canopy open fly full power at all times and stick your head out while flying 500 km/h. Heh its so funny. Even if it flies a little slower its the far easier plane to fly and succeed in than the german planes. IMO. In the german crates you have to think of what youre doing. In the YAK you just open the canopy, put the flaps out and smoke your prey. Cheatermode. Regarding DCS. I didnt compare the planes but how the FMs "feel". In that regard DCS is far more believable. Saldy too few planes and no map for WWII. But itll get there. And together with OR support right now i can only think of one sim that will last in the middle to long run. Sadly. If only 777 would reconsider OR support and finally port the game to a DX version thats not from the stoneage. Edited October 11, 2015 by Winger
System87 Posted October 11, 2015 Author Posted October 11, 2015 sorry for the ridiculous bragging which is likely to be exaggerated but it piss me off a little a little when some say that the 109 is that bad in this game And I use my mouse to look around, works really well for me I never said 109 is worse then russian fighters, i fly both i know very well its better then yak at energy fighting
ACG_pezman Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Nope. Once you have a UFO on your six youre toast if the russki is a decent shot. NoDispersionLaserguns. I flew YAK agian on WOL today. Heh i almost felt sorry for the poor germans i toasted. Leave canopy open fly full power at all times and stick your head out while flying 500 km/h. Heh its so funny. Even if it flies a little slower its the far easier plane to fly and succeed in than the german planes. IMO. In the german crates you have to think of what youre doing. In the YAK you just open the canopy, put the flaps out and smoke your prey. Cheatermode. Regarding DCS. I didnt compare the planes but how the FMs "feel". In that regard DCS is far more believable. Saldy too few planes and no map for WWII. But itll get there. And together with OR support right now i can only think of one sim that will last in the middle to long run. Sadly. If only 777 would reconsider OR support and finally port the game to a DX version thats not from the stoneage. Oh that made me rofl pretty hard. But in all seriousness, /rant on ...If you think you have to think less to fly a Russian aircraft as opposed to the German aircraft, I can understand why you are having such a hard time with this sim. It's OK though, I used to be just like you. I too was a German fanboy who raged at the mere sight of flaps... or a long range snipe... or getting "caught in a dive" or "zoom climb." I also used to get pretty mad about having to wait for the maxed out German team to open up so I could take a turn. Then one day, instead of raging, I hopped into a Yak and gave it a serious try. Not just a round or a few flights... days. Weeks. Months. Mostly because the German team is always maxed out. The longer I flew those Russian aircraft the more I understood what I was complaining about. They are not uber aircraft, these Yaks, LaGGs, and La's - no not at all. I was an awful pilot. Myth #1: Getting caught in a dive Russian aircraft can dive pretty damn fast, that superior dive speed doesn't mean sh!t if you don't have some altitude to sustain it it and extend. Chances are you didn't have any so the Russian aircraft was able to stay with you. Takes longer to reach 800kph than you think... and more altitude too. Cure: Have altitude. Myth #2: Getting caught in a zoom climb This is another area where the legend is bigger than the truth. Yes the 190 is a better zoom climber and can retain energy better. Having said that, it's edge is marginal at best when energy is equal. So, if you dive onto a target, attack, then zoom up and look back just to see your opponent sitting behind you where they shouldn't be... then you misjudged your opponents energy or you burned too much in your zoom. Cure: Have excessive energy, but not break your wings off excessive. Myth #3: Russian cannons are lasers that don't disperse No. Obviously not. However they do have a higher muzzle velocity and lose less energy over distance traveled. What does this mean? That they have less arc/drop and travel to the target faster. Does this make them feel like lasers. Yes. Do they disperse though? Yes and no. I would have a hard time understanding how a single cannon could "disperse" when fired, but the twin cannons on the La-5 do disperse. Their higher velocity means it doesn't happen until further out. SCIENCE!! Cure: Don't stay still for too long. Myth #4: You can just firewall the engine and rpm and go Yes and no. You can do this in the G2 as well, but we don't complain about that. See, the reason it seems this way is because the German aircraft have WEP where as the Russians don't. Essentially their engines are governed, not so much by any component designed to limit the RPM's but more in the fact that the engine isn't engineered to run beyond what it is capable of. You can get an engine to run more that what it can sustain, and in the process get extra horsepower and performance, but it's going to eventually take a toll (overheating or over-revving). It's physics, friction and balancing, vibrations, etc... Putting it simply, the Germans gave their pilots afterburners and the Russians didn't. With the exception of the La-5, it has boost and it can overheat quickly. And I have blown an engine in a LaGG-3 by over-revving. Cure: Just be happy you have to only worry about throttle. Myth #5: Flaps etc... 1) Russian flaps do cause drag. When you consider the weights of the aircraft and the power of their engines you can understand why a Russian aircraft could gain in a zoom climb with flaps deployed. The Yak has a better climb rate than the 190 so that powerful little engine can drag that light wooden aircraft up a steep climb with flaps out. Now, if the Yak has flaps extended for the whole climb it can't dream of staying with, close, or catching up to the 190. But if you deploy flaps at the top of the climb, once the zoom has already turned into a crawl, then you take full advantage of the fact that your light wooden plan can crawl faster than that heavy German brick. 2) Russian flaps do break. They break at around the same speed that the German flaps break at. 3) Russian aircraft do stall at slow speeds when the flaps are extended. It's just that the German aircraft tend to stall before the Russian aircraft do at slow speeds. Why? See number one again. Cure: Stop under estimating the Russian aircraft. People don't seem to realize that while the German aircraft are superior, in nearly all categories, the Russian aircraft are not so inferior as to not be comparable or put up a fight. Example: You can zoom higher in a 190 than a Yak because of the better energy retention if you don't move to conserve as much energy as possible. Would you be willing to do that with a yak 300 meter behind you? No, he's going to hit you if you try so you will have to evade and burn off your energy faster that him, because he can go straight and close the gap. Even if you come in at 750kph and the Yak is cruising at 500kph, if you fly straight you run the risk of getting hit by the Russian uber cannons. So, you pull up in your 190 to an Angle of Attack that is pretty steep, you know... to really capitalize on your excessive energy, so that the Russian, who is cruising at 500kph, cant get their nose up high enough to get a shot. And there goes your energy. Your choices now are extend to get your energy back and re-engage when it's better suited or squeeze every last bit out of that 190 and get your guns on target before the target does the same. So now you are down even less energy and if you don't get the kill on this next pass your in the Russian's world. If the German fanboys would actually try to learn the Russian aircraft I think they would be surprised at how much they know that just isn't so. And when you learn that the problem isn't the aircraft or FM's, you start to understand how to fly those aircraft successfully. And when you fly the 190 or the 109 the way it's meant to be flown, you find that it is indeed superior. TL;DR: The cure for all the ailments of our German fanboy friends is to respect and stop under estimating the Russian aircraft. If you fly like your fighting another 109 you should do better. If you do some time in the Russian aircraft you will know exactly how to defeat them. /rant off Edited October 12, 2015 by [TBC]volc0m_ 5
[CPT]milopugdog Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Nope. Once you have a UFO on your six youre toast if the russki is a decent shot. NoDispersionLaserguns. I flew YAK agian on WOL today. Heh i almost felt sorry for the poor germans i toasted. Leave canopy open fly full power at all times and stick your head out while flying 500 km/h. Heh its so funny. Even if it flies a little slower its the far easier plane to fly and succeed in than the german planes. IMO. In the german crates you have to think of what youre doing. In the YAK you just open the canopy, put the flaps out and smoke your prey. Cheatermode. Regarding DCS. I didnt compare the planes but how the FMs "feel". In that regard DCS is far more believable. Saldy too few planes and no map for WWII. But itll get there. And together with OR support right now i can only think of one sim that will last in the middle to long run. Sadly. If only 777 would reconsider OR support and finally port the game to a DX version thats not from the stoneage. I think the Yak is as maneuverable and fast as it probably should be. I would at least think so, as Yakovlev was mainly known for race aircraft before WWII broke out. I do recall "smoking" several Yak-1s (one example included here!!! http://i.imgur.com/iYGF2ev.gifv) I turned to make the engagement nose to nose, he dove, pulled up, then started to turn with his flaps (and gear?), but retracted them as soon as I hit his tail. He then continued a lifeless descent into the ground. I have also tried to play this said easymode way, and I shot shredded. So I'm not sure if I did something wrong, or if I'm just an idiot. I'm also going to send you my hospital bill, I got cut from you being edgy.
Trinkof Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Many thanks Volc0m ! I fly both sides, and you really just described so well what I experience any time I fly. And like you said : before ranting about FM people should fly Russian for a complete month or two! , I started fly Russian, and I recently switched to German.... And having flown yak and la a lot before, helps a lot flying decently German plane, especially the 190, which is currently my main ride! And for the 190 being a flying coffin.... There is a stats Web page for wing of liberty server.... And the 190 does not seem to be that badly placed
SKG51_robtek Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Always funny how hard data is ignored and personal flying skills are promoted here. Pointing out that the data and the FM's might be mismatched gets the pointing at the forum rules, which conveniently prohibit such stuff. If it wasn't so sad, it would be a laughing matter. IMHO. 3
SR-F_Winger Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) volc0m_' timestamp='1444626145' post='292660'] Yes the 190 is a better zoom climber and can retain energy better. I stopped reading right here. Utter PEEP! Just try it. Even levelspeed go ahead and try to zoomclimb right besides eachother. The YAK will end up FAR above you. And dont start to declare how this was not what really makes a zoom climb. Thats the only thing thats relevant!! Edited October 12, 2015 by Winger
coconut Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Pointing out that the data and the FM's might be mismatched gets the pointing at the forum rules, which conveniently prohibit such stuff. Are you referring to rule 18? Claiming that FM is incorrect without the required proof and starting a flame thread based on such claim is prohibited. The form for an FM claim consists of: short but consistent description of the claim; link to a reference and to a specific part of such reference that describes correct behaviour of a disputed element/situation; game track record and the list of conditions used to recreate disputed element/situation. Exception to this rule: FM discussion In other words, FM criticism with data is always allowed, and even groundless criticism is allowed, provided it takes place in the FM discussion sub-forum. Edited October 12, 2015 by coconut
Dr_Molenbeek Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 -snip- I must dream. You say yourself that you were an "awful" pilot, but of course today you're good enough to have the nerve to tell us, that we are wrong, that there are no FM issue and everything is in our "german fanboy" head, that we underestimate russian planes. What about LaGG-3 and La-5 roll rate ? Fw 190A-3 ridiculous roll inertia ? Fw 190A-3 climb rate above 1200m in winter ? Yak-1 flaps (lift bonus, AoA behavior, helicopter at low speed,...) ? Bf 109s that can reach 900km/h IAS without problem ? Yak-1 that overspeed at high altitude ? Bf 109F-4 that overspeed at high altitude ? No of course, all this is just a lie, everything is in my psychopath head. "The Yak has a better climb rate than the 190 so that powerful little engine can drag that light wooden aircraft up a steep climb with flaps out." And i guess you're good enough to tell us where you've read that a Yak-1 should climb better than a Fw 190A-3..? (yes because with all FM tests i did, the numbers are engraved in my head) 1
Dakpilot Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Forum rules do not prohibit FM discussions, rather restrict them to the apropriate place and actually demand the hard data that is required for any sensible discussion Sadly most 'complaints ' are far from factual and not backed up in any way, merely peronal 'feelings' If it wasn't so sad it would be a laughing matter that SO many otherwise useful threads are spoiled and spammed with fruitless FM 'claims' Where decent data has proven FM issues, the problems have been resolved in many cases Cheers Dakpilot
Wulf Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Let's wait until the Summer/Autumn maps come out so we can have a look at the level speed of the Yak. The results of NII VVS speed tests are available on the Yak 1 so that should give us a reasonably good idea if anything is going on. I agree with much of what you say, but I've never seen flap damage from speed on any plane, does this really happen?(I don't use flaps over 300kph though). They break on the 190.
Wulf Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Oh that made me rofl pretty hard. But in all seriousness, Myth #3: Russian cannons are lasers that don't disperse No. Obviously not. However they do have a higher muzzle velocity and lose less energy over distance traveled. What does this mean? That they have less arc/drop and travel to the target faster. Does this make them feel like lasers. Yes. Do they disperse though? Yes and no. I would have a hard time understanding how a single cannon could "disperse" when fired, but the twin cannons on the La-5 do disperse. Their higher velocity means it doesn't happen until further out. SCIENCE!! Cure: Don't stay still for too long. /rant off This: "I would have a hard time understanding how a single cannon could "disperse" when fired," Seriously? Have a look at any automatic weapon being shot and then have a look at the dispersion of projectile strikes on the target. Weapons flex under recoil and aircraft wing structures flex under G. The changing position of the aircraft relative to the target (which will also be moving in the case of A2A gunnery) also increases the dispersion of the projectiles irrespective of whether one or more weapons are being fired. Edited October 12, 2015 by Wulf
ACG_pezman Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 I stopped reading right here. Utter PEEP! Just try it. Even levelspeed go ahead and try to zoomclimb right besides eachother. The YAK will end up FAR above you. And dont start to declare how this was not what really makes a zoom climb. Thats the only thing thats relevant!! I doubt that. Many people in this forum have conducted tests on this and found that the 190 on average gets about 300m more altitude in a zoom climb at co-energy. This is what we call "superior performance" despite the fact that it is only marginally superior. So, I wouldn't bet on my zoom to save me unless I have a great deal more energy than my opponent. I must dream. You say yourself that you were an "awful" pilot, but of course today you're good enough to have the nerve to tell us, that we are wrong, that there are no FM issue and everything is in our "german fanboy" head, that we underestimate russian planes. What about LaGG-3 and La-5 roll rate ? Fw 190A-3 ridiculous roll inertia ? Fw 190A-3 climb rate above 1200m in winter ? Yak-1 flaps (lift bonus, AoA behavior, helicopter at low speed,...) ? Bf 109s that can reach 900km/h IAS without problem ? Yak-1 that overspeed at high altitude ? Bf 109F-4 that overspeed at high altitude ? No of course, all this is just a lie, everything is in my psychopath head. "The Yak has a better climb rate than the 190 so that powerful little engine can drag that light wooden aircraft up a steep climb with flaps out." And i guess you're good enough to tell us where you've read that a Yak-1 should climb better than a Fw 190A-3..? (yes because with all FM tests i did, the numbers are engraved in my head) Very astute, I did say I was an awful pilot. However I mentioned nothing about being good enough to lecture here. No, not good enough... experienced enough though. What about the La-5 and LaGG-3 roll rates? They aren't as good as the 190, but only slightly worse. If you're in the range of 300kph - 450kph your in the LaGG's preferred speed for rolling. Conversely if you take a LaGG or a La into a dive and reach speeds beyond 500kph, where the 190 really shines in high speed maneuvering, you find that the LaGG and the La can't roll. However, I wouldn't expect you to know that since I doubt you fly Russian and ever experienced chasing a 190 down and realizing, "Sh!t, I can't roll at this speed." As for the roll inertia in the 190... what? This is the first I have heard a person complain about that. If you think of it in terms of weight and inertia then why wouldn't the heavier, faster rolling 190 have more inertia to have to stop? Wouldn't that be against physics? Now if you are referring to the nasty tendency of the 190 to snap roll, well... that's just historically accurate and a sign that your flying wrong. And what about the climb rate above 1200m? Is the 14.1m/s climb rate not fast enough? Well, the 190 wasn't known for climbing or high altitude performance until the Dora models. So, sounds good to me then. And the fact that it's winter and the 190 isn't getting a cold air boost like EVERY OTHER AIRCRAFT IN THE GAME doesn't bother me because the 190 still out preforms all Russian aircraft at altitudes below 5k if flown correctly. I already covered the Russian flaps but I'll give it another shot. The Russians made their planes out of WOOD!!!! Wood is much lighter than the heavy metals used to make the German aircraft. When you consider that the engines were rather comparable in terms of power, why shouldn't the lighter plan have these unusual characteristics? When the air getting pushed by the prop hits the surface of the wings and flaps, it becomes like a thruster on the bottom of the aircraft, pushing it upwards. The lightness of the Russian aircraft mean that it can float at low speeds because of the sheer amount of thrust being pushed over the surfaces by the engine. This thrust is more effective because the weight it has to keep airborne is so much less that that of the German aircraft. Russian aircraft will stall, just after the heavier German planes do. So, in essence, if you are trying to stall a Russian aircraft out of the sky in a German aircraft... YOUR DOING IT WRONG!! This also explains why the AoA seems radical and the ability of the Russian aircraft to hang on their props well. The weight of the Russian aircraft is so much less that it can do more with it's thrust at low speeds that the German aircraft can. 109 hitting 900+kph? Haven't seen, experience, or heard of this until now. When I get a 109 up to about 800+kph chances are I'm losing some control surfaces and pancaking into the ground. But this doesn't seem like a big issue (like the over-speeds at high alt) because 1) it can only be achieved in a dive; 2) Russians don't go up that high unless your on Wings of Liberty or another expert server; and 3) German's don't go up high enough to achieve that speed with enough time to pull out safely. Even if you did and were diving onto me in a LaGG, I would just gently roll away from you, grab some more altitude, and gain some speed to do it again when you passed by harmlessly going mach 1. Eventually you'd have to slow down to fight me or come to the awful realization that I'm now at 5k and your energy advantage has been diminished significantly. Time to dive away... aww shit you're only at 5k and if you attempt to dive I will shadow you at 750kph until your energy runs out. Then I will pounce and force you to turn fight. And yes, the Yak can climb better than the 190. Why does that offend you? The 190, until the D models, was considered a shitty climber. It's a fact. That would be like me complaining that the LaGG climbs better than the P-40 (which it does, and it goes faster and turns better too). I don't because the P-40 wasn't known for climbing as well. The key? Get to altitude before you engage. Problem solved. I agree with much of what you say, but I've never seen flap damage from speed on any plane, does this really happen? (I don't use flaps over 300kph though). Funny, on the 190 I deploy flaps at 300kph in turns or at slow speeds to get a little extra out. I don't deploy them above that speed in the 190 because they actually hurt your performance at high speed. The 190 is much more maneuverable at high speeds with the flaps up than down, and putting them down won't break them off, but it will increase the chance that you stall in a turn exponentially. And vice versa below 300kph for the 190. Russian and German flaps, in my experience, start to break and become jammed at speeds in excess of 500kph. That should make you German guys think. Let's wait until the Summer/Autumn maps come out so we can have a look at the level speed of the Yak. The results of NII VVS speed tests are available on the Yak 1 so that should give us a reasonably good idea if anything is going on. They break on the 190. Agreed. However why would you be deploying flaps beyond 300kph anyway? Beyond 350kph you should be trying to augment your turns in the 190 with trim, not flaps. Flaps will get ripped off and destroy your energy. This: "I would have a hard time understanding how a single cannon could "disperse" when fired," Seriously? Have a look at any automatic weapon being shot and then have a look at the dispersion of projectile strikes on the target. Weapons flex under recoil and aircraft wing structures flex under G. The changing position of the aircraft relative to the target (which will also be moving in the case of A2A gunnery) also increases the dispersion of the projectiles irrespective of whether one or more weapons are being fired. What is being referred to as "dispersion" here is actually velocity. Pro-tip time: Go into QMB with your aircraft of choice, choose custom settings and make sure aim assist is on. Now go fly against some AI and dogfight. Chances are you will be blown away at where you have to aim to hit the target. If you're in a German aircraft, you probably have to lead quite a bit more than you thought. If you're in a Russian aircraft, you will be surprised at how little you have to lead compared to German cannons. Once your rounds start to land on target consistently (which is the hardest part of this game) you will see that "dispersion" isn't an issue in this game at all. The problem as I see it is simple. German pilots spend no time of any meaning in Russian aircraft. If they did they would know where exactly their advantages lie and how to exploit them. They would also know exactly what the Russian aircraft are capable of and not venture into those realms. Not knowing this they rely on a marginally better dive speed, energy retention, and roll rates to save their lives. Marginally better, meaning not "better" enough to save your life if the guy behind you knows how to handle his aircraft. Now, because I'm feeling generous: Max Dive Speeds: Yak: about 700kph before control surfaces become endangered La-5/LaGG-3: About 750kph before control surfaces become endangered (and you silly Germans thought diving at 800kph was enough, lmao... maybe at 9k where you can hold 800kph for a minute it would be.) Pe-2: About 700kph Now that you German fanboys know that a LaGG and La can dive almost as fast as you and retain energy almost as well, you shouldn't be surprised if the Russian AC is closer than you expected. I should take the time to mention that I was shocked to see what Russian aircraft can do once I started to fly them regularly. I never realized how much I under estimated them. Now I consider them more fun because they are a challenge and it's fun to make the fanboys rage when you kill them. It's like no Germans ever got shot down by Russians in WWII by their reactions... which is like adding ten kills to the one... so sweet 1
1PL-Husar-1Esk Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Yak manuals say do not exceed 650 km/h in dive.. yet you can dive near 700 km/h without worrying.
Dakpilot Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Russian dive limits are based on actual test results not on what is said in manuals/pilots operating handbooks, this has been explained by dev's many times... Han explaining why limit on Lagg Q. " Flutter IAS on LaGG-3 is 750 while in manual max IAS is listed as 600 km/h. It's 150 km/h reserve. While Bf-109 have only 70 km/h reserve." A. Actually, we have flight test report on LaGG-3 which shows that it's diving a little more than 700 km/h IAS without problems. So, we have set Flutter start at 750km/h IAS, +50 km/h to fastest known limit. Bf-109 have data on dive flight test on 900 km/h TAS at 5800m, it is 637 km/h IAS. Also, there is 750 km/h IAS listed as limit for it. So, our Bf-109 have 850km/h IAS as Flutter start speed, +100 km/h to fastest known limit." German aircraft actually have more generous dive limits than Russian It may be that Vne limits in Russian handbooks are more conservative, perhaps due to the widely varying construction quality of some of the factories, when the move of production was made to behind the Urals. The short run of poor quality aircraft is not modelled in game and all are built to 'average decent performance' from records much like the poor maintenance and failed supply issue does not affect Luftwaffe aircraft performance at peak of Stalingrad battle Cheers Dakpilot Edited October 12, 2015 by Dakpilot
SR-F_Winger Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) I doubt that. Many people in this forum have conducted tests on this and found that the 190 on average gets about 300m more altitude in a zoom climb at co-energy. This is what we call "superior performance" despite the fact that it is only marginally superior. So, I wouldn't bet on my zoom to save me unless I have a great deal more energy than my opponent. Very astute, I did say I was an awful pilot. However I mentioned nothing about being good enough to lecture here. No, not good enough... experienced enough though. What about the La-5 and LaGG-3 roll rates? They aren't as good as the 190, but only slightly worse. If you're in the range of 300kph - 450kph your in the LaGG's preferred speed for rolling. Conversely if you take a LaGG or a La into a dive and reach speeds beyond 500kph, where the 190 really shines in high speed maneuvering, you find that the LaGG and the La can't roll. However, I wouldn't expect you to know that since I doubt you fly Russian and ever experienced chasing a 190 down and realizing, "Sh!t, I can't roll at this speed." As for the roll inertia in the 190... what? This is the first I have heard a person complain about that. If you think of it in terms of weight and inertia then why wouldn't the heavier, faster rolling 190 have more inertia to have to stop? Wouldn't that be against physics? Now if you are referring to the nasty tendency of the 190 to snap roll, well... that's just historically accurate and a sign that your flying wrong. And what about the climb rate above 1200m? Is the 14.1m/s climb rate not fast enough? Well, the 190 wasn't known for climbing or high altitude performance until the Dora models. So, sounds good to me then. And the fact that it's winter and the 190 isn't getting a cold air boost like EVERY OTHER AIRCRAFT IN THE GAME doesn't bother me because the 190 still out preforms all Russian aircraft at altitudes below 5k if flown correctly. I already covered the Russian flaps but I'll give it another shot. The Russians made their planes out of WOOD!!!! Wood is much lighter than the heavy metals used to make the German aircraft. When you consider that the engines were rather comparable in terms of power, why shouldn't the lighter plan have these unusual characteristics? When the air getting pushed by the prop hits the surface of the wings and flaps, it becomes like a thruster on the bottom of the aircraft, pushing it upwards. The lightness of the Russian aircraft mean that it can float at low speeds because of the sheer amount of thrust being pushed over the surfaces by the engine. This thrust is more effective because the weight it has to keep airborne is so much less that that of the German aircraft. Russian aircraft will stall, just after the heavier German planes do. So, in essence, if you are trying to stall a Russian aircraft out of the sky in a German aircraft... YOUR DOING IT WRONG!! This also explains why the AoA seems radical and the ability of the Russian aircraft to hang on their props well. The weight of the Russian aircraft is so much less that it can do more with it's thrust at low speeds that the German aircraft can. 109 hitting 900+kph? Haven't seen, experience, or heard of this until now. When I get a 109 up to about 800+kph chances are I'm losing some control surfaces and pancaking into the ground. But this doesn't seem like a big issue (like the over-speeds at high alt) because 1) it can only be achieved in a dive; 2) Russians don't go up that high unless your on Wings of Liberty or another expert server; and 3) German's don't go up high enough to achieve that speed with enough time to pull out safely. Even if you did and were diving onto me in a LaGG, I would just gently roll away from you, grab some more altitude, and gain some speed to do it again when you passed by harmlessly going mach 1. Eventually you'd have to slow down to fight me or come to the awful realization that I'm now at 5k and your energy advantage has been diminished significantly. Time to dive away... aww shit you're only at 5k and if you attempt to dive I will shadow you at 750kph until your energy runs out. Then I will pounce and force you to turn fight. And yes, the Yak can climb better than the 190. Why does that offend you? The 190, until the D models, was considered a shitty climber. It's a fact. That would be like me complaining that the LaGG climbs better than the P-40 (which it does, and it goes faster and turns better too). I don't because the P-40 wasn't known for climbing as well. The key? Get to altitude before you engage. Problem solved. Funny, on the 190 I deploy flaps at 300kph in turns or at slow speeds to get a little extra out. I don't deploy them above that speed in the 190 because they actually hurt your performance at high speed. The 190 is much more maneuverable at high speeds with the flaps up than down, and putting them down won't break them off, but it will increase the chance that you stall in a turn exponentially. And vice versa below 300kph for the 190. Russian and German flaps, in my experience, start to break and become jammed at speeds in excess of 500kph. That should make you German guys think. Agreed. However why would you be deploying flaps beyond 300kph anyway? Beyond 350kph you should be trying to augment your turns in the 190 with trim, not flaps. Flaps will get ripped off and destroy your energy. What is being referred to as "dispersion" here is actually velocity. Pro-tip time: Go into QMB with your aircraft of choice, choose custom settings and make sure aim assist is on. Now go fly against some AI and dogfight. Chances are you will be blown away at where you have to aim to hit the target. If you're in a German aircraft, you probably have to lead quite a bit more than you thought. If you're in a Russian aircraft, you will be surprised at how little you have to lead compared to German cannons. Once your rounds start to land on target consistently (which is the hardest part of this game) you will see that "dispersion" isn't an issue in this game at all. The problem as I see it is simple. German pilots spend no time of any meaning in Russian aircraft. If they did they would know where exactly their advantages lie and how to exploit them. They would also know exactly what the Russian aircraft are capable of and not venture into those realms. Not knowing this they rely on a marginally better dive speed, energy retention, and roll rates to save their lives. Marginally better, meaning not "better" enough to save your life if the guy behind you knows how to handle his aircraft. Now, because I'm feeling generous: Max Dive Speeds: Yak: about 700kph before control surfaces become endangered La-5/LaGG-3: About 750kph before control surfaces become endangered (and you silly Germans thought diving at 800kph was enough, lmao... maybe at 9k where you can hold 800kph for a minute it would be.) Pe-2: About 700kph Now that you German fanboys know that a LaGG and La can dive almost as fast as you and retain energy almost as well, you shouldn't be surprised if the Russian AC is closer than you expected. I should take the time to mention that I was shocked to see what Russian aircraft can do once I started to fly them regularly. I never realized how much I under estimated them. Now I consider them more fun because they are a challenge and it's fun to make the fanboys rage when you kill them. It's like no Germans ever got shot down by Russians in WWII by their reactions... which is like adding ten kills to the one... so sweet [Edited] If you guys cannot get your pointrs across without name calling then this thread will be locked. Edited October 12, 2015 by Bearcat Name calling
Dr_Molenbeek Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) What about the La-5 and LaGG-3 roll rates? They aren't as good as the 190, but only slightly worse. If you're in the range of 300kph - 450kph your in the LaGG's preferred speed for rolling. Conversely if you take a LaGG or a La into a dive and reach speeds beyond 500kph, where the 190 really shines in high speed maneuvering, you find that the LaGG and the La can't roll. However, I wouldn't expect you to know that since I doubt you fly Russian and ever experienced chasing a 190 down and realizing, "Sh!t, I can't roll at this speed." [Edited] Too bad, they roll better than the 190 at all speed until ~600km/h. They don't only roll better, they can also change direction more quickly due to the inexistant inertia. Have you made any test... comparison ? I doubt, but i did. [Edited] As for the roll inertia in the 190... what? This is the first I have heard a person complain about that. If you think of it in terms of weight and inertia then why wouldn't the heavier, faster rolling 190 have more inertia to have to stop? Wouldn't that be against physics? Now if you are referring to the nasty tendency of the 190 to snap roll, well... that's just historically accurate and a sign that your flying wrong. ... And what about the climb rate above 1200m? Is the 14.1m/s climb rate not fast enough? Well, the 190 wasn't known for climbing or high altitude performance until the Dora models. So, sounds good to me then. And the fact that it's winter and the 190 isn't getting a cold air boost like EVERY OTHER AIRCRAFT IN THE GAME doesn't bother me because the 190 still out preforms all Russian aircraft at altitudes below 5k if flown correctly. 14,1m/s..? Wut wat ? You got these numbers in a kinder surprise ? Who cares how the 190 was "known" to climb, since we have NUMBERS. Fw 190A-3: 15m/s (~15,5m/s without MG FF/Ms) at climb power and 18,5m/s (~19m/s without MG FF/Ms) at full power. Yak-1: 15,5m/s at nominal power and 25% radiators. Oh wait, i see that the fact that the plane underperforms above 1200m in winter doesn't bother you ? You just show how you don't care about having historical and accurates FM. I'm wasting my time, i'll stop here. [Edited] PS: I'm not German. Knock off the name calling there is no need for that. Edited October 12, 2015 by Bearcat Name calling 2
MK_RED13 Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Helicopter effect of YakFLAPS https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=7&v=5ebYcKkBgmc starting at 5:00 (thank you Mr.MK.X..)
Matt Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Putting it simply, the Germans gave their pilots afterburners and the Russians didn't. To quote myself: Maximum continous power in BoS: Boost: DB601-E : 1.15 ATA / 874 mmHg DB605-A : 1.15 ATA / 874 mmHg M-105 PF: 1.45 ATA / 1100 mmHg Power output: DB601-E : ~1050 hp DB605-A : ~1065 hp M-105 PF: ~1240 hp The M-105 PF is a 25% more powerful engine in BoS than the DB engines without the use of the "German afterburner". All that without direct fuel injection, with a worse cooling system (in Yak-1 at least), less weight and (compared to the 605) lower displacement. And no, i'm not a Luftwhiner. I fly Russian planes more often than the German planes and was really forward to flying the Yak-1. But for now, i'm sticking to the other Russian planes, which for the most part, like almost all other planes, are modelled exceptionally well.
ACG_pezman Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 To quote myself: The M-105 PF is a 25% more powerful engine in BoS than the DB engines without the use of the "German afterburner". All that without direct fuel injection, with a worse cooling system (in Yak-1 at least), less weight and (compared to the 605) lower displacement. And no, i'm not a Luftwhiner. I fly Russian planes more often than the German planes and was really forward to flying the Yak-1. But for now, i'm sticking to the other Russian planes, which for the most part, like almost all other planes, are modelled exceptionally well. So, a lighter aircraft with a more powerful engine shouldn't be able to maintain controllable flight at slower speeds than a heavier aircraft and less powerful engine. Yep, FM's screwed up guys! Heavy things don't float long enough and light things don't sink fast enough! What is wrong with our world? Not to mention that in that video MK_RED13 linked, I noticed nothing wrong. The Yak was floating around at an extremely slow speed while the faster 109 continued to orbit, burning energy, trying to get a shot off on a target that is virtually standing still, fighting a stall the entire time. So, when the 109 pilot realized that he was pushing a bad position it was too late. Ha, it was probably Ze_Hairy piloting it screaming about flaps. If that 109 had just extended he could have gotten set up for a better attack. But no, he scissors and turns with a Yak, because that is smart. And of course we have to blame the FM, not the pilot who attempted to turn fight with a yak. Let's set something straight: Turn fighting with a Yak at any altitude is stupid because of a lot of things like wing loading, weight, power, etc... As we can see in this video the German suffers from "Greedy German Syndrome" where they push a bad position because they don't know the 109 can be put into a bad position. BTW, Hairy, please post your tests so we can look at them. I would love to see what kind of anecdotal evidence you will bring to the community. Otherwise people might assume that you are lying about that.
LittleJP Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/17539-fw-190a-3-climb-rate/ http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/17974-la-5-vs-fw-190a-3-roll-rate-comparison/
Recommended Posts