Is there any better Joystick as the MS Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 ???

[JG4_Nemesis]

It's been quite a while since Microsoft ended the Production of the popular, famous and legenadry Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 Joystick.

 

It had just enough buttons, good Force Feedback, great ergonomy (for right handers, of course), and quality with high durability...and last but not least the 4th axis for the rudder by twisting the stick.

 

Unfortunately Microsoft decided to end the production of the Sidewinder Series in 2003.

 

Till today, I have not encountered ANY better Joystick, that was able to beat this great piece of hardware....neither Saitek, nor Logitech or Thrustmaster.

 

 

To all my fellow virtual pilots: Have you encountered any Joystick, which you feel is significantly better than the Sidewinder Force Feedback 2??

 

 

 

 

P.S.: About the 4th axis: I do have Saitek Rudder Pedals, but found it uncomfortable to use them with my normal chair, so I sticked to using the FF2's fourth axis for controlling the rudder.

 

[DD_Arthur]

Is there anything better?  IMHO no.  I really like FFB and I've used a Saitek stick and a G940 too.  Neither came anywhere near the MSFFB2.  I've got two now so I'm future proof (hopefully). I use it in conjuction with a G940 throttle unit.

 

Microsoft ceased production as they were infringing someone else's copyright in their stick's mechanism.  I believe there is still a decent market out there for a MSFFB2 equivalent stick or hotas unit.  A few have tried but none have equaled it so far.

[Yob]

I have the same stick and pedals.

Love the ffb2. I have an X52 as well but only use the throttle.

I suppose the Warthog would be a better stick, but the price.....................

[gavagai]

IIRC, Microsoft won that lawsuit.

[Dooga]

Well those were the times when MS hardware was a lot better than the software. Got an old FFB2 too - hope the ebay supply doesn't run out anytime soon...

[Sim]

Can anyone comment on the precision of MSFF2? Compared to "modern" joysticks. I have heard lots of good things about this joystick and am looking to get one, but I am worried about the precision. Say, how does it compare to the excellent and quite cheap T.16000M? I have bought the expensive CH Fighterstick in the past and was disappointing to find the T.16000M was better in every regard (except maybe the build).

[OBT-Psycho]

you can't really compare those two together, force feedback beats in my sight anything and even top-of-the-shelf sensors. the feeling you got through the stick is way more realistic as you don't have to look for visual clue to get information for the plane. 

Some may say that sometime it tries to amplify it or tries to get unrealistic response compare to the real world. And I understand that, but the end the fact that you can get one more sense to work is the only thing that really mater.

 

So maybe the stick might be a bit less precise than other "no-FFB" sticks, but I find it easier to fly and way more fun. No matter what, I will never step back to a joystick that is not "alive". Just as I will never let go my TrackIR, which is just about the most impressive peripheral I've ever bought. The next major era in Fligthsim world may be VR stuffs and I'm sooooo much looking forward to see it working

[Sokol1]

Can anyone comment on the precision of MSFF2? Compared to "modern" joysticks. I have heard lots of good things about this joystick and am looking to get one, but I am worried about the precision. Say, how does it compare to the excellent and quite cheap T.16000M? I have bought the expensive CH Fighterstick in the past and was disappointing to find the T.16000M was better in every regard (except maybe the build).

 

MS FF sticks are 8 bits (256 points) , USB 1.1 devices - like the "famous" CH...

 

An use this.

 

Please, I dont want say that is worse or better, just what is.

 

Sokol1

[Sokol1]

Rectify: MS FF2 USB are 10 bits (1024 points) on X and Y, 8 bits (256 points) or rudder and throttle.

 

Sokol1

[Valisk61]

Is there any better Joystick as the MS Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 ???

Only one... and that's a MS Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 with two extra buttons!

 

 

Quite an easy mod to do. :D

[J2_Trupobaw]

Can anyone comment on the precision of MSFF2? Compared to "modern" joysticks. I have heard lots of good things about this joystick and am looking to get one, but I am worried about the precision. Say, how does it compare to the excellent and quite cheap T.16000M? I have bought the expensive CH Fighterstick in the past and was disappointing to find the T.16000M was better in every regard (except maybe the build).

Depends on how well ffb is implemented in game. I have switched directly fromT.16000 to FFB2. In RoF I did not notice lose of precision (the stick is shaking in hand now so it's not directly comparable, but ability to control planes stayed the same). In CloD FFB was pretty weak and stick offered to little resistance, so it was harder to make use of its precision. Il-2 I have  not tried. In some older games that did not use ffb at all the stick was completely limp and close to useless.

 

Only one... and that's a MS Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 with two extra buttons!

 

Quite an easy mod to do. :D

How about the same with 8 extra buttons and spade grip ? Obviously in prototype stage but it works surprisingly well. Just hope ffb motors can handle the extra mass...

Edited October 29, 2013 by Trupobaw

[VA_NAVY]

Logitech wake up its time for the G940 successor. I have the now discontinued G940 and love it.

[OBT-Psycho]

I think some of the first were on Gameport. but I'm quite sure FFB2 has always been on usb. The external power is needed to feed to motors making your joystick alive. IIRC you can use it without ACpower, but it won't have any forcefeedback, just spring centering.

[mudpuppy]

A while back, my wife called me from a thrift shop to ask if I'd heard of this 'Sidewinder' joystick thing.  (She's a good woman)  

After my question if the box said Force Feedback 2, I laughed when she asked if it was worth $10.  I now have a spare.  

 

When she got home and I promptly put in back in the original box after testing......She just shook her head.

Derek

[Sokol1]

How about the same with 8 extra buttons and spade grip ? Obviously in prototype stage but it works surprisingly well. Just hope ffb motors can handle the extra mass...

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/uploads/monthly_10_2013/post-972-0-48328200-1383079267.jpg

 

Force Feedback with "Vibration"?

 

Well done!

 

 

Does this stick always have an external power lead or are there some that are powered via USB?

 

FF2 USB come with a AC power cable.

 

Try get one with red trigger - think the last series, is considered the best (due firmware).

 

Sokol1

Edited November 1, 2013 by Sokol1

[Matt]

The red trigger series has a rubberized grip though. That can flake off and i think it feels very weird.

 

I much prefer the earlier, plastic stick variant. I had both the first and final series, but sold the first unfortunately.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Matt

[NonWonderDog]

Only one... and that's a MS Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 with two extra buttons!

 

Quite an easy mod to do. :D

I see your two extra buttons and raise you a MS Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 with fourteen extra buttons!

 

 

Well, one extra button, a dual-stage trigger, and three extra hats. Also very cheap and easy to do, since I didn't even have to rewire anything in the F-16 grip. I just used a cheap micro with a SPI driver (on a $20 teensy board) to talk to the shift registers.

 

I eBayed an MSFF2 with a dodgy hat switch and an old serial port Thrustmaster FLCS for this, so it cost me barely anything.

 

And the guys with Thrustmaster Warthogs don't have force trim.

Edited November 9, 2013 by NonWonderDog

[Sokol1]

And your "F-16" grip dont peeling the paint....

 

Nice work.

 

Sokol1

[Valisk61]

I see your two extra buttons and raise you a MS Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 with fourteen extra buttons!

lol! You win, great job! :D

 

I was toying with the idea of using a Saitek Cyborg stick top, as I quite like the ergonomics. Did you retain the twist rudder when you attached it? Got any pics of the inside?

Edited November 9, 2013 by Valisk61

[Setup]

I see your two extra buttons and raise you a MS Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 with fourteen extra buttons!Well, one extra button, a dual-stage trigger, and three extra hats. Also very cheap and easy to do, since I didn't even have to rewire anything in the F-16 grip. I just used a cheap micro with a SPI driver (on a $20 teensy board) to talk to the shift registers.I eBayed an MSFF2 with a dodgy hat switch and an old serial port Thrustmaster FLCS for this, so it cost me barely anything.And the guys with Thrustmaster Warthogs don't have force trim.

This is just great!!

I wish to try it with an old serial ch F16 fighterstick I have, use it's grip on my msff2,

I would appreciate some detailed instructions of how you managed yours,

I have no knowledge in electronics, but I will show those instructions to one who knows,

But please be as detailed as possible for the fools around here like me

Thanks allot!

Setup.

[NonWonderDog]

This is just great!!

I wish to try it with an old serial ch F16 fighterstick I have, use it's grip on my msff2,

I would appreciate some detailed instructions of how you managed yours,

I have no knowledge in electronics, but I will show those instructions to one who knows,

But please be as detailed as possible for the fools around here like me

Thanks allot!

Setup.

I don't know about the CH Fighterstick, but the Thrustmaster F-16, F-22, Cougar, and Warthog use three 8-bit shift registers to cut the grip wiring down to five conductors. An old SNES controller uses the exact same principle. To read any of these sticks you need to give it +5V, ground, a clock source, a data line, and a select line. It's completely compatible with SPI (serial peripheral interface). On the old F-16 I identified the brown wire as +5V, green as ground, orange as clock, red as enable, and yellow as serial data out.

 

I think the cheapest project board with SPI is a Teensy 2.0, for $16. It's programmable with the Arduino IDE and comes with a USB joystick profile ready-built, so it could hardly be easier. brown and green go to the +5V and GND pins, orange goes to SCLK (pin 1), red goes to SS (pin 0), and yellow goes to MISO (pin 3).

 

Then I used this very simple code:

 

 

/* USB FLCS Grip
   You must select Joystick from the "Tools > USB Type" menu
*/

// Buttons are muxed into shift registers, use the SPI protocol to read them
#include <SPI.h>

const int slaveSelectPin = 0;

unsigned int buttonInputs1;   // data read from SPI
unsigned int buttonInputs2;
unsigned int buttonInputs3;

// Use some macros to clean things up
#define S3   !(buttonInputs1 & 0x80)    /* Pinky Switch */
#define TG1  !(buttonInputs1 & 0x40)    /* Trigger 1 */
#define TG2  !(buttonInputs1 & 0x20)    /* Trigger 2 */
#define S1   !(buttonInputs1 & 0x10)    /* Nose Wheel Steering */
#define S4   !(buttonInputs1 & 0x08)    /* Paddle Switch */
#define S2   !(buttonInputs1 & 0x04)    /* Pickle */

#define H1D  !(buttonInputs2 & 0x80)    /* Trim */
#define H1R  !(buttonInputs2 & 0x40)
#define H1U  !(buttonInputs2 & 0x20)
#define H1L  !(buttonInputs2 & 0x10)
#define H4U  !(buttonInputs2 & 0x08)    /* CMS */
#define H4L  !(buttonInputs2 & 0x04)
#define H4D  !(buttonInputs2 & 0x02)
#define H4R  !(buttonInputs2 & 0x01)

#define H3D  !(buttonInputs3 & 0x80)    /* DMS */
#define H3R  !(buttonInputs3 & 0x40)
#define H3U  !(buttonInputs3 & 0x20)
#define H3L  !(buttonInputs3 & 0x10)
#define H2D  !(buttonInputs3 & 0x08)    /* TMS */
#define H2R  !(buttonInputs3 & 0x04)
#define H2U  !(buttonInputs3 & 0x02)
#define H2L  !(buttonInputs3 & 0x01)

// setup() runs once on boot
void setup() {
  // set the slaveSelectPin as an output:
  pinMode (slaveSelectPin, OUTPUT);
  // start the SPI library:
  SPI.begin();
  // configure the joystick to manual send mode.  This gives precise
  // control over when the computer receives updates, but it does
  // require you to manually call Joystick.send_now().
  Joystick.useManualSend(true);
}


// loop() runs for as long as power is applied
void loop() {
  // take the SS pin low to select the chip
  digitalWrite(slaveSelectPin,LOW);
  // send a value of 0 to read the SPI bytes
  buttonInputs1 = SPI.transfer(0x00);
  buttonInputs2 = SPI.transfer(0x00);
  buttonInputs3 = SPI.transfer(0x00);
  // take the SS pin high to de-select the chip:
  digitalWrite(slaveSelectPin,HIGH); 

  // Write to joystick buttons
  Joystick.button(1,  TG1);
  Joystick.button(2,  S2);
  Joystick.button(3,  S3);
  Joystick.button(4,  S4);
  Joystick.button(5,  S1);
  Joystick.button(6,  TG2);
  Joystick.button(7,  H2U);
  Joystick.button(8,  H2R);
  Joystick.button(9,  H2D);
  Joystick.button(10, H2L);
  Joystick.button(11, H3U);
  Joystick.button(12, H3R);
  Joystick.button(13, H3D);
  Joystick.button(14, H3L);
  Joystick.button(15, H4U);
  Joystick.button(16, H4R);
  Joystick.button(17, H4D);
  Joystick.button(18, H4L);
  //Joystick.button(19, H1U);
  //Joystick.button(20, H1R);
  //Joystick.button(21, H1D);
  //Joystick.button(22, H1L);
  
  // Determine Joystick Hat Position
  int angle = -1;

  if (H1U) {
    if (H1R) {
      angle = 45;
    } else if (H1L) {
      angle = 315;
    } else {
      angle = 0;
    }
  } else if (H1D) {
    if (H1R) {
      angle = 135;
    } else if (H1L) {
      angle = 225;
    } else {
      angle = 180;
    }
  } else if (H1R) {
    angle = 90;
  } else if (H1L) {
    angle = 270;
  }
  Joystick.hat(angle);
  
  // Because setup configured the Joystick manual send,
  // the computer does not see any of the changes yet.
  // This send_now() transmits everything all at once.
  Joystick.send_now();
}

 

Connect the chip via USB, program it, and you're done. The Teensy board is teensy, so it easily fits anywhere in the base of the MSFFB2. Just cut a hole for an extra USB cable.  The code should be similar to read a Cougar or Warthog stick, but I think they have slightly different button assignment. You might need to tweak the buttonInputs1 macros for the newer sticks.

 

Physically mounting the grip was just a matter of cutting both shafts, boring out the F-16 shaft, smoothing out the MSFFB2 shaft, and epoxying them together. If you wanted to be really fancy you could fashion a connector to use an unmodified Cougar or Warthog grip.  The grip is slightly unbalanced, and there might be room to put some lead counterweight in the base, but it works fine with the power on.

 

The only difficult part is the little infrared sensor the MSFFB2 uses to turn the force on and off. I replaced this with a switch on the base. For some reason it wouldn't work when I just used the switch in place of the phototransistor, and I eventually got fed up with trying to be clever. I desoldered the infrared LED and photodiode from the circuit board in the MSFFB2 grip and put them on a little board facing each other, and I wired the switch in so it cuts power to the LED when I want to turn FFB on.  You can leave all of this out and it will work fine, but the FFB motors will be permanently on. You'll have to pull the power cable between sessions to power it down.

 

Since the twist is part of the grip itself and not the base, my stick no longer twists. I just grounded the sense pin, but what I should have done was put in a voltage divider so it always thinks it's centered. Right now it always thinks it's twisted full left. If you leave it open it will float back and forth and make it hard to assign axes in games. I think the axis can be disabled in the Windows registry (the same way I assigned the ministick on my X52 throttle to axes), but I haven't needed to bother.

Edited November 10, 2013 by NonWonderDog

[Sokol1]

 

I don't know about the CH Fighterstick, but the Thrustmaster F-16, F-22, Cougar, and Warthog use three 8-bit shift registers to cut the grip wiring down to five conductors.

 

Ch F16 Fighterstick (Gameport or USB) dont use this "8-bit shift registers" chips inside grip like Thrustmaster, but a "matrix" - lines x columns - scheme.

 

ftp://ftp.chproducts.com/pub/Postings/Wiring/Fighterstick_PC/Fighterstick_PC_Page_1.pdf

ftp://ftp.chproducts.com/pub/Postings/Wiring/Fighterstick_PC/Fighterstick_PC_Page_2.pdf

ftp://ftp.chproducts.com/pub/Postings/Wiring/Fighterstick_PC/Fighterstick_PC_Page_3.pdf

 

Notice that these diagram dont show what wires are lines and what are columns on buttons and HAT's, you need "decode" then.

 

Not easy like NWDog scheme but perfectly doable.

 

You can use Teensy board to wire Fighterstick buttons, but in a different way as describe, in case use Teensy as HID joystick.

 

Sokol1

[Setup]

Thank you very much for the detailed answers!!

I will send it to a guy I hope can do it/break his head...and deliver...

Otherwise I would buy yours...

 

Too bad no company produces FF sticks like the msff2 anymore, especially replicas and not toy looking stuff...

That would be a major market with simmers, not only hardcore ones.

(Any company listens??..)

 

Cheers ,

Setup.

[Sokol1]

Seems that Saitek listened...

 

Sokol1

[Sokol1]

The video shows a centre-spring so ... ?

 

 

Like in Saitek Evo Force...

 

My guess is based on these holes on yellow strip o base... suggest vent for feedback motors.

 

Sokol1

Edited November 12, 2013 by Sokol1

[piero_tasso]

Interesting topic, since my MSFFB2 is pretty old now and I fear it will abandon me soon or later. And I don't see any good replacement, as long as I consider FF essential.

 

That Saitek Evo Force is an old product? There are some new sticks expected from Saitek to look for?

(sorry but relying in my old MSFFB2 I've never followed what the market is offering)

[Hunziker]

Tres cool Val!

Perhaps even cooler NonWonderDog .

Nice work Trupobaw .

Edited November 12, 2013 by Hunziker

[Sokol1]

That Saitek Evo Force is an old product? There are some new sticks expected from Saitek to look for?

(sorry but relying in my old MSFFB2 I've never followed what the market is offering)

 

Case is the market dont offer a better replacement for MSFF2.

 

Logitech 3D Force and Saitek EVO Force (both seems discontinued) are entry level "all-in-one" models with cheap potentiometers...

Logitech G940 HOTAS (discontinued) are a good promise, but fail due use of cheap potentiometer an "saving" in centimeters of wire...

 

Recently Saitek teaser a X-55 MACH (no info at moment) that maybe are FF, but more probable a cheap replacement for X-65 that are no well accept by market due use "Force Sense" (That simmers request for Cougar at time... "The market"... ).

 

So get a MSFF2.

 

Sokol1

[DD_Crash]

Case is the market dont offer a better replacement for MSFF2.

 

Logitech 3D Force and Saitek EVO Force (both seems discontinued) are entry level "all-in-one" models with cheap potentiometers...

Logitech G940 HOTAS (discontinued) are a good promise, but fail due use of cheap potentiometer an "saving" in centimeters of wire...

 

Recently Saitek teaser a X-55 MACH (no info at moment) that maybe are FF, but more probable a cheap replacement for X-65 that are no well accept by market due use "Force Sense" (That simmers request for Cougar at time... "The market"... ).

 

So get a MSFF2.

 

Sokol1

This was pointed out when they launched it.

[piero_tasso]

[...]

 

So get a MSFF2.

 

Sokol1

 

There won't be MSFF2 for sale forever...

[Sokol1]

There won't be MSFF2 for sale forever...

 

It's because some guys buy all ones they find.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/44-ms-ff-2/page-3

 

MSFF2 + CH Fighterstick USB

 

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=81144

 

Sokol1

[=69.GIAP=STENKA69GIAP]

Need extra buttons? What for?

 

[Valisk61]

Gotta love extra buttons

 

Here's my X35T:

 

[JG5_Schuck]

I agree, there is no better stick!

 

If someone made a WW2 looking Force Feedback stick, they would clean up the market!

 

Still using mine, with a CH Quadrant, a Cessna Trim wheel and a set of Simpeds. Lovely

[damar]

FFB2 is best for WWII sims.

[gavcaMadG]

In the last 9 years I bought 5 MS Sidewinders FFB2. One is already very scraped for parts, 2 needs to fix minor things, mainly buttons, and the other 2 are working perfectly. The only drawback that I found in these years is the looseness in the center of the stick, which could be configured a bit with the software, but it doesn´t work in Win 7 or 8. 

[Sternjaeger]

guys, how easy is to change your stick grip? I now have a FF2 and a Tarmac Aces grip that I would like to use together.

[PDLturmoil23]

So any chance to find a joystick as good as the MSFFP2 that works on windows7?

[arjisme]

The Logitech G90 should have been the one that all others aspired to copy but it seems it got it wrong where it matters.

Just curious if you could elaborate on this. In what way(s) did the G940 stick get it wrong in your opinion?

[Sokol1]

 

Just curious if you could elaborate on this. In what way(s) did the G940 stick get it wrong in your opinion?

 

In use cheap/ bad quality potentiometers (and short wires) on throttle/pedal axis, to compensate this cheap pot's they introduced in firmware a "filter" that  in some circunstances cause that axis readings are inverted momentarily, the "reverse bug", that lead to complains and returns, and end of production...

 

Sokol1