What is your favourite replacement Swastika ?

[Marcomies]

Since there will be no real Swastika in the game, what is your favorite replacer for it?

 

1) Hakenkreuz without center (the "official" BoS swastika)

 

2)  Hakenkreuz with dot in the center

 

3)  German Cross (WW1 style)

 

4)  Cross Pattee (straight)

 

5) Nothing, leave the tail/flag empty (as in original IL2 and CLOD)

 

6) Something different (other than swastika) Please post picture!

[BigMotor]

Nothing, so that STAB can do their aftermarket magic and give us the correct one.

[RFG_Hisl]

Nothing, so that STAB can do their aftermarket magic and give us the correct one.

A ten years old tool. Great at its time. Do you think it is still working with BoS?

[Crump]

^{It would be nice if they would just toggle the historic markings on and off.  Or at least give you a way to turn them on.} 

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

choice 5, like the III/JG53 did it during some time during 1940

[Uufflakke]

I vote for #2 'cause it is close to the original one.

 

On the other hand we shouldn't worry too much. Besides #1 is the BoS version there will be allowed user skins with original Swastika's.

 

By the time the official game is released there will be some many skins around to choose from it will dazzle us.

[Marcomies]

I don't think STAB-like solution will be possible in BoS. I have understood that BoS uses the same skin system as RoF so there will be no dynamic markings and adding swastikas to existing skins would require manually adding it to all skin textures. I also doubt that 777 will allow swastikas in official community skinpacks (if the system works like it does in RoF). It will be interesting to see how this will affect community skinmaking.

[Pierre64]

I vote for #1 for two reasons:

- it is developper's choice

- and #2 is too close of the real and forbidden insigna.

 

I prefer nothing than "maltese cross", not WW2 related.

[Foobar]

- and #2 is too close of the real and forbidden insigna.

Same for #1 in germany. Both 1 and 2 are prohibited insignia in germany. I hope that devs will consider.

[dkoor]

1

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

Same for #1 in germany. Both 1 and 2 are prohibited insignia in germany. I hope that devs will consider.

Wow - can't even get close to it?

 

How are historical books, pictures and movies handled in Germany?  Does someone have to go through and take out any swastikas before it can be published?

[Cybermat47]

How are historical books, pictures and movies handled in Germany?  Does someone have to go through and take out any swastikas before it can be published?

Historical books and photos are history, so I assume they would be allowed in them. And films are considered art, so they're allowed due to a law that allows swastikas in works of art.

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

Historical books and photos are history, so I assume they would be allowed in them. And films are considered art, so they're allowed due to a law that allows swastikas in works of art.

 

But games are apparently not art?

 

That is interesting.  It seems like we commonly have the same actors appearing in movies as video games as voice talent.

[Foobar]

Yes in games they are not tolerated in germany.

[=FI=Genosse]

Why using a replacement in order to imitate the original?

 

No.5 fer me, folks!

 

[Foobar]

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__86a.html

 

Absatz 2, Satz 2.

 

And yes, I am sure.

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__86a.html

 

Absatz 2, Satz 2.

 

And yes, I am sure.

 

So how are 1 or 2 legal?  They both could be seen as representing swastikas.

[Uufflakke]

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__86a.html

 

Absatz 2, Satz 2.

 

And yes, I am sure.

 

Indeed.

Here in English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a

 

Quote:

"Symbols affected

The law text does not name the individual symbols to be outlawed, and there is no official exhaustive list. A symbol may be a flag, emblem, uniform parts, or a motto or greeting formula. Note that the prohibition isn't tied to the symbol itself but to its use in a context suggestive of association with outlawed organizations. Thus, the Swastika is outlawed if used in a context of völkisch ideology, while it is legitimate if used as a symbol of Hinduism or Buddhism. Similarly, the Wolfsangel is outlawed if used in the context of the Junge Front but not in other contexts such as heraldry, or as the emblem of "landscape poet" Hermann Löns. Due to the law, German Neo-Nazis took to displaying modified symbols similar but not identical with those outlawed. In 1994, such symbols were declared equivalent to the ones they imitate (Verbrechensbekämpfungsgesetz Abs. 2)."

[ram0506]

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__86a.html

 

Absatz 2, Satz 2.

 

And yes, I am sure.

 

Foo,

 

at the Hangar 10 museum at Usedom I made some fotos of the Me 109 G-14 and the FW190 D-9 there, both with the replacement swastika no.1. But maybe it`s allowed just for exhibits of museums?

[Marcomies]

Foo,

 

at the Hangar 10 museum at Usedom I made some fotos of the Me 109 G-14 and the FW190 D-9 there, both with the replacement swastika no.1. But maybe it`s allowed just for exhibits of museums?

 

They use fake swastikas even in a museum? Wow... that's just so wrong. It's unbelievable that German anti-nazi symbol laws have become even stricter as late as 1994. That just sounds like something out of the fifties or sixties and is completely pointless...

[Crump]

 

They use fake swastikas even in a museum? Wow... that's just so wrong. It's unbelievable that German anti-nazi symbol laws have become even stricter as late as 1994. That just sounds like something out of the fifties or sixties and is completely pointless...

 

 

 Somebody must think their citizens psyche is so weak that exposure to a symbol is going to make someone fall off the moral deep end to advocating genocide and hate. 

[Crump]

Spoke too soon......

 

The root of these silly laws comes from the Allied Occupation of Germany after the war.  Denazification was in full swing by the Allies until the early 1950's when somebody correctly concluded it was ineffective.  Unfortunately the German people took it to heart even going so far as to arrest anti-Nazi groups in the recent past for displaying the swastika being thrown into a garbage can or with a red bar thru it.

 

I bet we have more neo-nazi's in the United States than there are in Germany.  Ours are probably much easier to find though as they gather around the swastika!  

 

Heck, ours are even adopting highways!

 

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/usa/pages-4/Neo-Nazis-make-plans-to-expand-adopted-section-of-Colorado-Highway-Scrape-TV-The-World-on-your-side.html#.Um7vBejD-Uk

 

Maybe one day the German people can forgive themselves and realize that part of being human is having a small percentage of nutbags that the rest of us have to work to keep in check.

[1./JG42Nephris]

Leave it blank.

The problem is actually only for public use, like pc magazines, screenshots for websites etc.

Basically we can use swastikas at home under the shower,in the kitchen,toilett or in pc games.

But a game could imho get censored to be shipped out in Germany with no1 or no2 or the default one.

Unsure about digital copies off Germany, due of no control instance i guess it is legitim, like Call of duty 1+2 copies from abroad for instance.

 

To provide the easiest way, leave it blank. Those who desire can add it , those who not leave it as it is.

Enabling or disabling a swastika layer would also be a nice compromise.

But how s the law regarding swastikas in Russia?Wasnt it illegal in its default look aswell?

[Pierre64]

In due respect to european legislations, I  suggest this simple lozangic mask covering the svastika.

Same place, same size, same shape, as this example I modified from a Claes Sundin's profile of Heinz Bär's F-4 found on the web:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[I/JG27_Rollo]

Leave it blank - more space for kill markings.

[Foobar]

Using them in museums/historybooks/art and in games are totally different things. Ingame usage is none of the allowed exceptions. Unfortunately a computer simulation doesn't count as art in germany but as a game.

[StG2_xgitarrist]

I dont understand the problem. Just give us a german version of the game (without swastika, so the crazy bureaucrats and politicians can relax) and an international version of game (optional to turn on the swastika). And everybody can choose which game he wants to download.

 

It reminds me of this silly restrictions for games with alot of violence and gore. In germany these games were not allowed (you couldnt buy them in a store) or they had an extra-version of the game with reduced gore. But if you really wanted the original version with more gore you just buy an international version (ebay, amazon, ...).

Or even easier, for the most part, you just had to change a line in the ini-files or download a blood-patch (~10kb) and you had the original game with german language. Very simple.

 

It's just a crazy and desperate way they try to control what they think people should or shouldnt consume, see, play, here... (goodbye free market).

[Matt]

I don't think the German law is the biggest issue here, but the Russian law is.

 

I don't think they are allowed to use the Swastika during development of a flightsim, so you won't see an "international" version with stock skins featuring the Swastika.

 

As for the German law and this topic, I think it can be very debatable wether or not no. 1 and especially no. 2 are legal or not.

 

Since BoS will most likely not feature the automatic download method regarding skins used in MP, I don't see how skins with swastika created and downloaded from outside of Germany in community packs can be considered illegal. So I wouldn't worry too much about this issue, unless you only want to use the stock skins.

[CPS_Skybolt]

#5

[Foobar]

Ok, thanks Foobar. I didn´t hear about this "replacing" thing before. Even a circle at the tail of a german WW2 plane would be illegal then, because it is "replacing" the swastika at this position 

 

No that's wrong. There's a catalogue with examples of forbidden "almost" swastikas around, given by german officials.

[Allons]

Websites, forums & Co. stay under constant risk to be prosecuted for Swastica- Screenshots posted by members for "or makes publicly accessible through data storage media for dissemination domestically or abroad".

 

Thats why public servers should be kept free of them and they banned from official skinpacks. As said, whoever wants to fly swastica at home is free to do but public servers distributing swastica skins could have problems.

 

In fact i never heard of a real prosecution or incoming inquiries/investigations, but the idea of it is enouph..

 

Best, Allons!

[Matt]

The server (i guess you mean the server hosting the MP mission right?) does not destribute anything.

 

If you want to use a skin, you have to download it on your own PC manually. Atleast that's how it works in RoF and i highly doubt it will work differently in BoS.

[=BLW=Pablo]

I think it's a good idea to replace the swastika, the symbol would be the virtual squadrons

 

~S~

[Rama]

Removed political and off-topic posts

No dispute is necessary.

Please avoid political comments - no need to derail the poll.

[Karost]

I agree with Crump

"It would be nice if they would just toggle the historic markings on and off."

[dave9810]

Simplest way would be to continue the camo pattern where it would be placed, instead of having a grey square.

[Bf-110]

I swear I once saw a photo of a late war plane with the #1 "swastika" on its tail.I suppose this was real and not invented by 1C?

[Trooper117]

Nothing, if it's not a true representative marking, someone in our talented skinning guru's will provide us with the correct skins in due time. So it's pointless even having a 'stand in'..

[Wolger]

It's disheartening to see a sacred religious symbol was stolen from us despite the variation.

 

Can we get it back? Maybe putting a Hindu/Buddhism swastika if permissible under the law? The Luftwaffe is not always nazi I believe.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Wolger

[Fifi]

I bet one of the first mod to come out in this sim, will be an historical swatiska on the tail!