Yak-1 flaps down arcadish behaviour?

[303_Kwiatek]

Flying Yak-1 most pilots used flaps down expecially in turns but also in vertical manouvers. Truly speaking i do it also. But i think that these is not realistic behaviour for these plane.  I made some simple test.

 

400 kph at sea level and then vertical zoom climb.  Yak-1 with full flaps down comparing to clean configuation lose only about 100-150 m.

 

I made similar test with Fw 190 A-3 and with full flaps down A-3 lose about 250-300m which seemed to me more correct.

 

Also Fw 190 A-3 with full flaps down got high pitch up tendency.  In Yak-1 these is only small pitch up tendency.

 

I think flying with flaps down in Yak-1 is very arcadish. Plane lose not too much speed in vertical with full flaps and have not too much COG change in trim.

 

Yak-1 could hang in vertical with flaps down not losing too much speed and moreover are quite stabilized to steady aim and shot.

 

Not mention that i can't damage flaps in Yak-1 even with hard pull ups and high G manouvers.

 

So actually we got:

 

- too fast safetly dive speeds for all Russian planes

- overperfomed Yak-1 and Lagg-3 at higher alts

- too fast climb rate of Yak-1 and Lagg-3

- arcadish behaviour on flaps down

Edited March 24, 2015 by 303_Kwiatek

[Finkeren]

Hmmmm haven't tested it but wasn't proper flaps DM introduced a couple of patches back?

 

Maybe file this as a bug report and not as an FM complaint?

 

To be honest, I seldom see pilots online use flaps in combat. I myself never use them and the Yaks flaps in particular can't even be lowered properly at speeds over 250km/h.

[No_85_Gramps]

I confess that I do on occasion use the flaps on the Yak...they suffer no damage so I guess it was not fixed.

[Willy__]

Yep, definately something strange on the Yak behavior all around, it barely lose speed/energy in turns, can soak up many, many, MANY bullets, almost like it has a radial engine, now this flap bs. Sincerely, I'm just hoping the devs do something, until then, I'll wait next patch. 

Edited March 24, 2015 by istruba

[Finkeren]

Wow...

 

Ok, let's take it point by point:

 

1: The flaps issue: If it is true, that the Yak can deploy flaps at high speeds (which I can't get it to do) and that they suffer no damage from being deployed at high air speed, then yes: That is a bug and should be corrected.

 

2: The top speed issue: Yes, it does seem like the Yak is too fast at higher altitudes. Should be corrected.

 

3: Dive speed: Debatable. There is no law saying, that the Yak absolutely should lose its control surfaces or shed the skin off its wings at 650km/h. I will give however, that the Yak propably accelerates too fast in a dive. There the Fw 190 should leave all others behind, and it doesn't quite do that.

 

4: Energy retention: Yes, the Yak retains energy well. That's not too surprising, given that it has the lowest wing loading by far of all the fighters in BoS and its powerloading is only slightly inferior to the Bf 109F4 at maximum ATA.

 

5. Durability: Yes the Yak let go of its glass wings in 1.009, and we owe the devs thanks for that. The Yak was by far the most rugged and durable fighter in the VVS arsenal due to its all-steel structure. As for other types of damage, all I can say is, that the LaGG and Yak feel pretty similar when it comes to engine damage, and after 1.009 I get fuel fires more often in the Yak than the LaGG.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Hmmmm haven't tested it but wasn't proper flaps DM introduced a couple of patches back?

 

Maybe file this as a bug report and not as an FM complaint?

 

To be honest, I seldom see pilots online use flaps in combat. I myself never use them and the Yaks flaps in particular can't even be lowered properly at speeds over 250km/h.

 

I feel that you are in the minority Finkeren, as most of the Yak pilots I come across I see using flaps very regularly.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Using flaps is a desperate last thing to do that will keep u alive for one or two more turns, that is if the chasing pilot is smart enough to not follow.

[Willy__]

 

 

3: Dive speed: Debatable. There is no law saying, that the Yak absolutely should lose its control surfaces or shed the skin off its wings at 650km/h. I will give however, that the Yak propably accelerates too fast in a dive. There the Fw 190 should leave all others behind, and it doesn't quite do that.

 

That and the surface controls of the yak doesnt lock up, like the 190 elevators when you are 600+km/h. 

[YSoMadTovarisch]

I also feel that the flaps on the Yak provide too much lift while having too little drag and thus the Yak 1 keep it's speed too well with flaps out.

Edited March 25, 2015 by GrapeJam

[Finkeren]

That and the surface controls of the yak doesnt lock up, like the 190 elevators when you are 600+km/h.

You're exactly one update behind there, Mate. Fw 190 high speed handling was corrected in the latest patch, pretty much to universal acclaim.

[JtD]

I think flying with flaps down in Yak-1 is very arcadish. Plane lose not too much speed in vertical with full flaps and have not too much COG change in trim.

Do you have actual data to confirm your opinion in that in game behaviour is wrong? What would be right?

[StG2_Manfred]

I feel that you are in the minority Finkeren, as most of the Yak pilots I come across I see using flaps very regularly.

Exactly my observations!

[Dakpilot]

I thought the Yak 1 flaps are pneumatically operated, when speed/air pressure is too great they are "pushed" back in when the system pressure is overwhelmed, this would lead to a different sort of damage (if any?) compared to mechanical or hydraulically actuated flaps.

 

Not flown Yak 1 for any time after a number of patches have made many improvements, so cant really comment on other points

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Finkeren]

I thought the Yak 1 flaps are pneumatically operated, when speed/air pressure is too great they are "pushed" back in when the system pressure is overwhelmed, this would lead to a different sort of damage (if any?) compared to mechanical or hydraulically actuated flaps.

 

t

That does seem to be what's happening to me every time I try to deploy flaps at too high speed in the Yak, but is it correctly modelled? It's true that a pneumatic system can act like more of a spring compared to hydraulic systems (gas compresses better than fluid) and ofc an electrically driven mechanical system. Still I'm not sure that the system should suffer no damage from the forces involved. If anything it might break down completely if the pressure in the cylinder gets high enough.

[JtD]

You're right Dakpilot. Of course, there could&should still be damage, but the system is completely different from the Fw190 flaps.

 

For what it's worth, I just flew the Yak-1 at low level and obtained 483km/h IAS with flaps up, and 338km/h with flaps down. That's a 145 km/h difference and illustrates a huge increase in drag.

[Finkeren]

You're right Dakpilot. Of course, there could&should still be damage, but the system is completely different from the Fw190 flaps.

 

For what it's worth, I just flew the Yak-1 at low level and obtained 483km/h IAS with flaps up, and 338km/h with flaps down. That's a 145 km/h difference and illustrates a huge increase in drag.

Bingo! Thanks for doing the test I couldn't do last night (I was working a 24 hour shift)

 

Seems there really isn't that much of a problem then?

[Dakpilot]

I am no expert on Yak pneumatic flap systems but would expect there to be a pressure relief somewhere in the system to prevent damage , I imagine ( bad choice) that would have to be in place just to keep the system from overpressure in normal use..this would help to relieve stress in inappropriate aerodynamic forces...although I am sure I have read about general inefficiencies in Russian pneumatic systems but that is a subject I am not experienced enough to comment on.

 

I think the same (similar) system is used on Yak 3 that are flown today so perhaps there is info available from someone

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[ema33ig]

- too fast safetly dive speeds for all Russian planes

 

- overperfomed Yak-1 and Lagg-3 at higher alts

- too fast climb rate of Yak-1 and Lagg-3

- arcadish behaviour on flaps down

 

 

+1

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I feel that you are in the minority Finkeren, as most of the Yak pilots I come across I see using flaps very regularly.

Same can be said for 109 pilots, in many dogfights when I flew LaGG or Yak, my opponents extended the flaps - sometimes up to 100%. Same thing with flaps playing I saw in war thunder or back in Il 2 1946, so I guess it became part of playstyle through this years ...

[Brano]

Pneumatic system in Yak was used for:
1.Main gear operation+emergency gear release
2.Flaps operation
3.Engine start-up
4.Brakes operation
5.Guns operations (reload and fire)

Compressed air was stored in 4 separate tanks (main+emergency for gear under pilot seat,backup behind armored desk,for guns inbetween engine cylinders)

In the air the pressure was maintained via kompressor AK-50 with reduction valve which maintained constant pressure in the system (50kg/cm2).

[SR-F_Winger]

IMO:

The YAK-1 is a russian simpilots dream. Its far from flying realistic. The almost complete absence of energyloss with flaps down is only one manifestation of this fact.

I really hope the devs correct those "mistakes" they made with this airplane soon.

Edited March 25, 2015 by VSG1_Winger

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Don't really know about the flaps so I won't comment on it further but saying Kwiatek probably didn't have full landing flaps deployed during his test (which can only be accomplished on ground or low airspeeds).

 

The Yak has a clearly feelable energy rentention advantage over any aircraft ingame. It's the best BnZ because it does not only lose none energy while zooming up again, it actually gain additional altitude compared to it's initial dive alt whereas planes with superiour climb rate like the Bf 109 lose some hundret meters

 

Combine this behaviour with the fact I saw Yaks pulling certical stall manouvrers floating in the air shoting upward with no stall indication it's easy top say he wing's drag calculation is probaably flawed. It's not so much an issue against F-4s, which are also overperforming, but against all other Luftwaffe aircraft for sure.

 

I really hope devs will look at it again, but it's very hard to proof actually without having access to either ingame FMs as well as real VVS fighter aircraft aerodynamical data.

[303_Kwiatek]

One more thing in vertical zoom flaps are the last thing which you would use IRL  casue it act like airbrake ( a lot of drag) and add a lot of lift  ( even with AoA=0 ) which would try to pull your plane on its back.  If you drop flaps at zoom climb or steep climb you will lose a lot of speed and energy but also stabilization.  In BOS i observed that Yak-1 pilots usually in such situation drop flaps hang steady verticaly and not loose too much energy and stabilization. These is really arcadish.  I tried similar in Fw 190 A-3 but these plane loose more quickly energy and also stabilization. It behave much more realistic.

 

For comparsion i try maximum flaps level speed in DCS comparing to clean configuration and planes there loose about 200 kph maximum speed ( so flaps create much more drag there)

Edited March 25, 2015 by 303_Kwiatek

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Don't know, DCS birds are significantly faster as well while on the other hand the higher pressure in BoS should increase drag by a great ammount, too. I guess this is up for speculation.

 

What surely should be is flap deployment at stall speed causing nasty spins. Don't know if the ingame Yak (or any other plane) incooperates this but infact the added lift is not enought to compensate for the added drag in this specific situation.

 

Furthermore it's worth keepign in mind the Yak only uses single stage, ie landing flaps. Those were absolutely unsuited for deployment in combat unlike the 190 for example, which incooperated an exclusive "combat" flaps stage.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Brano]

Fw190 was not unmatchable opponent for Yak-1.Yak was free to fight with Fw on both vertical (here it was even a bit better) and horizontal maneuvers.Yaks were very succesful against Fws.More over it had better acceleration and deceleration then Fw.

Maybe it is difficult to process for some people,but soviet pilots praised messer as an opponent to be feared of.Not Fw.

[Primus_71]

For comparsion i try maximum flaps level speed in DCS comparing to clean configuration and planes there loose about 200 kph maximum speed ( so flaps create much more drag there)

 

 

 

For what it's worth, I just flew the Yak-1 at low level and obtained 483km/h IAS with flaps up, and 338km/h with flaps down. That's a 145 km/h difference and illustrates a huge increase in drag.

 

 

 Which is right? 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Brano, we are talking about basic aerodynamics here, not aircraft competetivity (at least I did)

 

All airplanes flying threw air have the same basic aerodynamical restrictions.

[303_Kwiatek]

 

What surely should be is flap deployment at stall speed causing nasty spins. Don't know if the ingame Yak (or any other plane) incooperates this but infact the added lift is not enought to compensate for the added drag in this specific situation.

 

Furthermore it's worth keepign in mind the Yak only uses single stage, ie landing flaps. Those were absolutely unsuited for deployment in combat unlike the 190 for example, which incooperated an exclusive "combat" flaps stage.

 

IRL there would be nonsnese to use flaps in verticals zooms or steep climbs casue too much drag and destabilization of flight.  In BOS it is common that Yak-1 pilots use full flaps in such occasion also for turnining fights which is also absurd.  Plane should have better sustained turn rate in clean configuration then with flaps down. 

 

One thing is also imporatant full flaps down IRL cause that critical angle of attack is lower then with clean configuration. In BOS planes with full flaps could do miracles.

 

I think IRL full flaps was used for landings and could be used in combat only for overshoot enemy.   In BOS full flaps could be used for full turn fights or for hang in the air in vertical manouvers also ( mostly in Yak, 109 didnt even try,  in Fw 190 surly nonsnese).

 

Thats why using full flaps in BOS destroy realistic simulaton effect.   It remind some old Il2 Sturmovik verison before it was changed in patches.

[Finkeren]

Ok, I decided to try it out in a few quick missions, and I gotta give it to Kwiatek and Winger: Something is wrong. I don't think it's correct to say, that lowering flaps doesn't bleed your air speed, when I tried it, it definately did, I lost some 50 km/h in a couple of seconds when deploying flaps in a tight sustained turn. Went from 280 km/h to around 230 but was able to increase my turn rate nonetheless.

 

However, It seems like the flaps function in a weird way here: Instead of simply increasing drag and providing additional lift, they seem to magically improve the handling characteristics a great deal regardless of which situation they're deployed in, allowing you to pull tighter turns and prop-hang for a longer time.

 

I can definately see, why people would exploit this in MP. From now on, I'm gonna have to fight the temptation to do it myself. The good news for LW pilots is, that using flaps further increases the gap in air speed and will make a well-flown 109 even more imposible to catch.

 

I agree that something propably needs to be done, even if I kinda scoff at LW pilots whining that their advantage over VVS planes isn't large enough

[303_Kwiatek]

 

 

 

 

I can definately see, why people would exploit this in MP. From now on, I'm gonna have to fight the temptation to do it myself. The good news for LW pilots is, that using flaps further increases the gap in air speed and will make a well-flown 109 even more imposible to catch.

 

 

 

I wish you succes when you would try to outclimb Yak-1 with full flaps hanging behind your 109.  If it would be made realistic way it would be nonsnense to use landing flaps in such situations casue you will lose a lot energy and speed and you would stall much faster then.

Edited March 25, 2015 by 303_Kwiatek

[SR-F_Winger]

I wish you succes when you would try to outclimb Yak-1 with full flaps hanging behind your 109.  If it would be made realistic way it would be nonsnense to use landing flaps in such situations casue you will lose a lot energy and speed and you would stall much faster then.

+1. I cant count the times in wich i looked back and saw a YAK-1 climbing after me (quite successful) with fully deployed flaps in a steep climb. I was flying 109 then. Wouldnt try that in a FW.

Over all I think were getting there. Slowly.

[[TWB]80hd]

So, the use of flaps to alter flight characteristics (other than take off, landing, damage control) is "arcadey"?  Or just in the Yak?

Because I use flaps in the 190 more than anything else to get my nose around faster... it's kind of a staple of every sim I have ever played... it's one of the many tools that people who win use that people who lose do not...

[BraveSirRobin]

So, the use of flaps to alter flight characteristics (other than take off, landing, damage control) is "arcadey"?  Or just in the Yak?

 

As near as I can tell from reading this forum, if you shoot someone down while flying a Russian aircraft, something arcadey has happened.

[Primus_71]

As near as I can tell from reading this forum, if you shoot someone down while flying a Russian aircraft, something arcadey has happened.

 

 

Spot on

[wtornado]

You would not of lasted 5 mins in a dogfight fur ball in a

P-39 or a FW-190A in IL-2 1946 without using the combat

flaps.

 

The FW-190A has always been a hairy plane to fly in IL-2 series.

Its roll rate was insane though hehehe.

[TG-55Panthercules]

So, the use of flaps to alter flight characteristics (other than take off, landing, damage control) is "arcadey"?  Or just in the Yak?

Because I use flaps in the 190 more than anything else to get my nose around faster... it's kind of a staple of every sim I have ever played... it's one of the many tools that people who win use that people who lose do not...

 

Interesting debate.  Are there any historical accounts from WWII pilots or otherwise that discuss the use of flaps during combat/dogfight maneuvers?  I don't remember ever reading any, but I've been stuck back in WWI so long it's been quite a while since I did most of my WWII reading.  It would be really interesting to me to see what the historical practice was in this regard.  

 

Assuming (without much foundation, admittedly) that this practice of using flaps in this fashion is ahistorical, that last statement above is one reason I shy away from MP so much.  It's kinda like what used to happen when I tried playing Battlefield 2 with my kids.  I kept seeing snipers running around in the middle of a close-quarters battle dropping claymores right in front of the enemy soldiers and blowing them up.  They also said things like "it's one of the many tools that people who win use that people who lose do not"  - but it destroyed any sense of immersion or interest for me since I was looking for a more realistic emulation of a combat experience and that was just totally out of whack.  Basically, if you have to do things with your plane that the pilots would never have done IRL in order to be successful in MP, I'd rather just go play something fictional like Rocket Jockey or a space game where there's no historical context being violated.  But that's just me I guess.

Edited March 25, 2015 by TG-55Panthercules

[Zak]

18. Claiming that FM is incorrect without the required proof and starting a flame thread based on such claim is prohibited.

The form for an FM claim consists of:

• short but consistent description of the claim;
• link to a reference and to a specific part of such reference that describes correct behaviour of a disputed element/situation;
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Just FYI - I've updated the forum rules with p.18 that you'll find quoted above. It's not retroactive, so nobody will throw bans left and right. Still some topics may be locked down.

[No_85_Gramps]

Okay, I did a quick test w/the Yak. Diving at about 600 kph, deploy flaps, open about 10% and then freeze. Reducing air speed does not bring the flaps back to life, they stay in the slightly open position. So it would appear to depend on your airspeed as to whether or not the flaps get damaged. If I get a chance I'll do some more testing at lower speeds. So it appears that the flaps do sustain damage.

[[TWB]Ewertsp]

... The good news for LW pilots is, that using flaps further increases the gap in air speed and will make a well-flown 109 even more impossible to catch.I agree that something propably needs to be done, even if I kinda scoff at LW pilots whining that their advantage over VVS planes isn't large enough

 

 

As near as I can tell from reading this forum, if you shoot someone down while flying a Russian aircraft, something arcadey has happened.

I couldn't agree more hahahaha.

 

Assuming (without much foundation, admittedly) that this practice of using flaps in this fashion is ahistorical, that last statement above is one reason I shy away from MP so much.  It's kinda like what used to happen when I tried playing Battlefield 2 with my kids.  I kept seeing snipers running around in the middle of a close-quarters battle dropping claymores right in front of the enemy soldiers and blowing them up.  They also said things like "it's one of the many tools that people who win use that people who lose do not"  - but it destroyed any sense of immersion or interest for me since I was looking for a more realistic emulation of a combat experience and that was just totally out of whack.  Basically, if you have to do things with your plane that the pilots would never have done IRL in order to be successful in MP, I'd rather just go play something fictional like Rocket Jockey or a space game where there's no historical context being violated.  But that's just me I guess.

ArmA is the game for you, not battlecrap. And here, we're getting there, don't worry.

Edited March 25, 2015 by [TWB]Ewertsp

[BlackDevil]

You're right Dakpilot. Of course, there could&should still be damage, but the system is completely different from the Fw190 flaps.

 

For what it's worth, I just flew the Yak-1 at low level and obtained 483km/h IAS with flaps up, and 338km/h with flaps down. That's a 145 km/h difference and illustrates a huge increase in drag.

 

confirmed - so that is a very plausible drag increase IMO. My glide tests of the Yak with and without flaps showed the same huge increase of descent rate with flaps.

 

I can´t follow the opinion of the OP.

Edited March 25, 2015 by BlackDevil