Request for BoM: Late production MiG-3

[Finkeren]

I was so happy to learn, that the upcomming Battle of Moscow expansion to IL-2 will include one of my all time favourite aircraft: The MiG-3.

 

However, one thing in the announcement caught my eye, which I would hope I could get the devs to reconsider: From the picture posted in DD88, it seems clear, that the devs intent on recreating the MiG-3 in one of its earlier configurations. 

 

As can be seen, the MiG pictured lacks automatic slats on the leading edges of the wings and the changes to the upper cowling and exhaust stacks, often (erroneously) called the 'long nosed' MiG-3 or MiG-3ud. 

 

I would propose to the devs, that they instead model the MiG-3 in the configuration used in aircraft produced in the later half of 1941 (those commonly called MiG-3ud), or at least include the most important changes as unlockable upgrades, similar to how adding the gun turret to the Pe-2 in BoS changes it from a Series 87 to a Series 110. The reason behind this is, that this would have been the more common MiG-3 around at the time of the Battle of Moscow and winter counteroffensive, and it would also make the MiG-3 more competitive against the overall superior Bf 109 F2 and MC. 202.

 

The most important changes to the MiG-3 would include:

 

(Most important chances in bold)

 

Adding automatic slats to the leading edges including redesigned pitot probe (the most important, as it greatly improved low speed handling and stall characteristics)

 

Redesigned upper cowling for easier maintainance (this would be almost purely cosmetical)

 

Posibility of adding two under-wing 12.7mm guns (not all MiG-3ud had this, but it was generally not found on early MiGs)

 

Addition of an inert gas system to prevent fuel fires (similar to that found on the LaGG-3)

 

New propeller gear reduction (giving a 150% greater pitch range, which apparently improved high altitude performance)

 

Addition of triangular plates to the cooling vents on the sides of the cowling (purely cosmetical)

 

Reduced ventral fuel tank (giving shorter range but significantly improving handling, maneuverablility, take off and landing characteristics and improving turn rate by at least 2 seconds)

 

Addition of armoured glass plate directly behind the windscreen (would be great for attacking bombers, not certain that all late production MiGs had this)

 

Slightly redesigned horizontal tail surfaces and ailerons (improving control authority)

 

Most late production MiG-3s had the tailwheel locked down.

 

Posibility of changes in armament to 2xUBS or 2xShVAK (especially the first one was produced in relatively large numbers (315))

 

Posibility to remove the sliding part of the canopy (was often done during the winter 1941/42)

 

 

I hope the devs would take a moment to consider adding at least some of these or making the late production MiG-3 the standard MiG in BoM.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

You can read a lot about the evolution of the MiG-3 at this awesome site:

 

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/mig3/latemig-3.html

Edited February 14, 2015 by Finkeren

[IRRE_Belmont]

That is some impressive analyse Finkeren, thank you for sharing,

 

 

Mig3 FTW

[Brano]

Most of those points could come as unlock for this plane.I think devs will for sure look into it.Good summary Finkeren

[Finkeren]

I agree Brano and that would completely satisfy me (not that I like the unlocks, but they don't bother me too much either)

 

There is one minor problem though: The changes to the cowling which designates the MiG-3ud, while cosmetical, clearly marks the plane as a late production variant. The redesigned cowling was introduced after some of the listed changes were introduced (like the slats and the lightened fuel tank) but before some of the other (like the different armament options)

 

Having all the items on the list as unlocks would make it posible to create a-historical combinations (like a 2xUBS armed MiG-3ud without slats) which never existed. It's not really much of a problem for a guy like me, but some nit-pickers might jump on it.

 

IMHO the best solution would be to have the MiG-3ud be the standard version with the redesigned cowling, slats, redesigned control surfaces and smaller fuel tank as default and have the different propeller (apparently the two types were fitted simultaneously to different aircraft), armamaent options, inert gas system, armoured glass and posibly locked tailwheel and removed canopy as unlocks.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Finkeren

[Urra]

Hope that this gets put up for serious consideration.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Agree 100% with this post.

[Bearcat]

Yeah good stuff there..

[SR-F_Winger]

 

 

competitive against the overall superior Bf 109 F2 and MC. 20

 

Remains to be seen if the german planes actually ARE superior. I only say "FW 190 A3"

Beautiful plane the MIG. I can understand your enthusiasm.

[Solmyr]

A BoM a bit more balanced keeping the historicity accurate, I vote for ! (Poor alone rata..^^)

[Yakdriver]

If an F2 and an F4 are separated...
and all it takes is the change of a Gunbarrel... from 15 to 20mm

a late model would be most welcome.
but not this hybrid kind of thing...  adding bits and pieces to the standartd model to make it a late model.

[=RvE=Windmills]

Seems likely that they will provide these as upgrades based on our current aircraft lineup.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Extremely well reasoned post. Thanks for putting that together and really describing the changes between models. I was doing a little reading on this myself but this really clarifies!

[Finkeren]

a late model would be most welcome.

but not this hybrid kind of thing... adding bits and pieces to the standartd model to make it a late model.

Well honestly Yakdriver, that was how new versions of most Soviet aircraft came to be, by adding small incremental changes along the production run rather than make a complete redesign and hold back production for weeks.

 

If all the things listed above were available as unlocks, it would actually be posible to fly both the early version and the late version in historically correct configuration, we would just have to trust people to only put things together it a historical order

[Yakdriver]

yea, sure! completely agree.

But the thing is... this is your Mig right there, standing under that tree.

and... just because you busted some nahtsie Junkers  and the headquarters confirmed your kill?
And when she stands under that tree and you fly her today without slats, will you take the saw and cut her wing leading edge slats... tomorrow morning?

hell no, you won't.
not even a team of mechanics will.

i mean, putting a 37mikemike instead of the 20/23... i gather that is possible if you strip the LaGG front section down when the engine needs major maintenance anyway.
but adding slats? who here has the guts to cut up a Wing to add a pair of slats?

That's a new set of wing outer panels we're talking about here...

 

How is that handled in the FM code? a simple on/off option in the code?

I'd rather have the old one, and the reworked one separately.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Yakdriver

[Yakdriver]

...and besides.
there is an F2, and there is an F4.
and iirc, the only change was the barrel of the MG-151/XX

and with such big changes as proposed here...
how can the friedrich get two slots for barely any changes, but the Mig must be hacked and slashed together via unlocks. internal components, major FM changes due to new wing, new cowling...
that is not very consistent, is it.

 

i would almost say that the F2 must surely be discareded then, and BoM ship with the standard F4 - and an optional unlock to reduce the MG151/20 towards an 151/15. [yes. YESSS i see you smile now!]
and in place of the F2, put some other german fighter, like... ?! an 190 A0? a He-112? A He-51? a Storch? a Do-17?

Edited February 15, 2015 by Yakdriver

[Finkeren]

I see your point Yakdriver. But actually the slats were sometimes installed in the field. IIRC it was done by simply replacing the outer wing sections, which was often done anyway, as it was the most practical way of repairing the delta wood parts of the aircraft.

[Yakdriver]

okay, the slats out of the way. replacing the panels, ... mmmh takes a few hours by a well trained and routined crew... okay.
(it was an obvious answer that i know, but do not want to give away just that easily...)

 

next up the Fuel tank.
how would you have small 600km fuel tank one day, and then the 1000km fuel tank the next day?

 

How can the game stay Credible, that's the main underlying question.
how can more planes (Mig, 109, 190, Mustang...doesnt matter) be done with the limited (8 standard, 10premium) slots available per expansion pack?

i am on your side. I like your proposition. I like you digging into it.
i would just say scratch the old mig, only give us the new one. (just like scratch the F2, aint nobody gonna fly that anyway, with the F4 available)
and with the unlocks, focus to bring a maximum of credible, understandeable upgrades. Loadout options a Gogo. bomb types. Fuses. Rockets. maybe an armement option if that was possible as you say, swapping guns or even putting in the Shvak [drooooool]

 

as much as l like your upgrade option, i would feel like war thunder if all the proposed changes wer implemented.
there, there you have it. i dont want war thunder. and i am scared your will soon propose polished engines and an air and oil filter upgrade for 7% more power...

aaaargh! Nooooo!

:-)

 

[Saurer]

...and besides.

there is an F2, and there is an F4.

and iirc, the only change was the barrel of the MG-151/XX

 

and with such big changes as proposed here...

how can the friedrich get two slots for barely any changes, but the Mig must be hacked and slashed together via unlocks. internal components, major FM changes due to new wing, new cowling...

that is not very consistent, is it.

 

i would almost say that the F2 must surely be discareded then, and BoM ship with the standard F4 - and an optional unlock to reduce the MG151/20 towards an 151/15. [yes. YESSS i see you smile now!]

and in place of the F2, put some other german fighter, like... ?! an 190 A0? a He-112? A He-51? a Storch? a Do-17?

 

The F2 also hand a different Engine. The F2 used the DB 601N and the F4 the DB 601E

[Yakdriver]

ah, right.
well, that's an argument for the F2 then.

[Finkeren]

As I said in my second post Yakdriver, I actually agree with you. I think the best solution would be to simply make the late version the default one.

 

Still, concerning the unlocks they're just never gonna be 'believable' when thought of as field mods. For instance, many of the ordinance options for the He 111 would require significant rebuilding of the original H6. Likewise some of the modifications to the MiG-3, like the different cowling armament options, couldn't be performed in the field either.

 

I think it's better to think of the unlocks as simply recieving a new plane or the squadron being equipped with several different types at once.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Plus precedent has already been established with the Pe-2 and the entirely different series modifications with a new turret and revised cockpit. These aren't something a field mechanic would have done between lunchtime and dinner.

[Finkeren]

In Soviet Russia the time between lunchtime and dinner can be up to three weeks

[C-Bag]

This is a fascinating thread so far but the argument about what field mods are possible and how much time seems very odd to me. I certainly don't want to start the rivet counters going but personally the thought of doing the rear gunner mod to the IL2 out in the field makes me cringe. Talk about a hack job of major proportions! I've done a lot of work in the field as a tractor mech. but not doing major possibly life threatening mods like that turret mod and in freezing weather.

 

A big S! to the mechanics of the VVS!

 

I would also love to find a good book on MiG3 as I'm sure it's filled with all kinds of intrigue and twists.

[Yakdriver]

Well THAT's a good idea.
anyone got sdome Mig Book recommendations?

 

 

I think it's better to think of the unlocks as simply recieving a new plane or the squadron being equipped with several different types at once.

that does not work for me, at all, whatsoever.
i can still choose my 23 or 37 mm Gun can i? how is that possible?
i can tell the mechanics to drop the outer MG-FF because i perfer to carry a 500kg bomb. "you got 10 Minutes. go. do it. do it JETZT. jawohl!" I mean WHAT?
I can tell the Mechanics to put the rear Window and Fuselage cut-out of my Shtormovik back in place [+sanding+painting+polish] because my gunner is still dead from this morning's mission, and the ungaining gunner position is creating an awful lot of drag that i (for gods sake) do not need at all.

 

i wish i was a rivetcounter, but my knowledge is not up to that level any more.
but this way of thinking, of forcing myself into believing something... not possible.
am i here to close my eyes and fill the gaps that make no sense?

 

 

The solution i see...
...give me a squadron's inventory:

20 available Migs,

10 are pimped out shvak ones, of which i shall use one of course (smug face).
5 of the old ones with the 1x12.7+2x7.7 and the old wing... are currently carrying Bomb shackles for 2x100+2x50kg bombs

2 have the gunpods that i hate so much

2 have the rocket rails that are completely useless

1 is a bare bones model that everybody avoids flying.

 

(and in the shack there are 5 undergoing repairs and up/downgrades...)

 

Now then we are talking!
let me assign the Pilots to the planes that fit the mission profile best.

Adds credibility where the madness of unlocks reign.

 

that way, A PLANE has A CONFIGURATION, and can be used with credibility and purpose, or can be discarded. can be sent to the shop (24h wait) and the entire campaign gains a much needed level of depth.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Yakdriver

[LukeFF]

 

 

I certainly don't want to start the rivet counters going but personally the thought of doing the rear gunner mod to the IL2 out in the field makes me cringe.

 

But, that's exactly how a lot of the Il-2 field mod gun turrets were added.  

[BeastyBaiter]

I'd prefer the ud model as well.

[Nil]

I'd really like to se a F-1 possibility of the BF-110 E-2 But they are pretty bad at dogfighting, both of them. And I might be able to dive down on some IL-2 or a PE-2 and cause some havoc.

(read about the E model from pilots that it was unresponsive and "rigged and a total dog") Everyone wants 'their' version of the plane

[ShamrockOneFive]

I'd really like to se a F-1 possibility of the BF-110 E-2 But they are pretty bad at dogfighting, both of them. And I might be able to dive down on some IL-2 or a PE-2 and cause some havoc.

 

(read about the E model from pilots that it was unresponsive and "rigged and a total dog") Everyone wants 'their' version of the plane

 

Ahh now the Bf110E-2 I've been doing some reading about and it seems like what the devs wanted to give us was a sort of a counterpoint to the IL-2. The E-2 is a fighter-bomber and it sounds like it can carry an impressive bombload and has some extra protection from ground fire.... But its a "total dog" as some Luftwaffe pilot was apparently quoted. But probably a good fighter-bomber option and not the heavy fighter that some wanted to have. I get that for sure... with the MiG-3 I think we're thinking about if it is a suitable counterpoint to the Bf109F-2.

 

Something to clarify surely. So far the devs have been very good at picking the right planes to add into the battle.

[C-Bag]

But, that's exactly how a lot of the Il-2 field mod gun turrets were added.  

 

 

Yes, I understand. I'm talking about that the discussion seemed to be about what was possible with field mods and how long it would take. But the turret mod already included with the IL2 is pretty extensive and nobody seems to notice. It seems to me replacing wing panels would be a job but if it's done right from the engineering standpoint might be pretty straightforward. In my experience doing a mod that was not engineered for can take longer than just swapping out parts. I know how ingenious people can be, I just was hoping to not get bogged down in minutae when it sounds like I'd just hope for the version of MiG3 that Finkeren was pitching for.

 

The only book I've found so far was by Yakovlev and he seemed in the inner circle and didn't say much about the other designers. There is the hint reading between the lines that there was lots of infighting and favoritism. And if you were not in the inner circle with all the governments involved in WWll your design didn't get made. Yakovlev did mention the MiG3 only to say it lost favor and the problem about an engine which was funneled away to the IL2. I don't remember his saying it had been decided to bring most of the action down low where the Yak1, LaGG and La5 did good and the MiG3 wasn't designed for.

 

Like others here I'm wondering why so many people are interested in this plane that had so much bad press. Is it just misunderstood or was it an incomplete design that got pushed aside before it could get all the bugs out? Or it sounds like you just had to be the kind of pilot that it's quirks and shortcomings fit with? I for one am also in for BoM when it comes out and get to fly these historic machines.

[LukeFF]

Is it just misunderstood or was it an incomplete design that got pushed aside before it could get all the bugs out? Or it sounds like you just had to be the kind of pilot that it's quirks and shortcomings fit with? I for one am also in for BoM when it comes out and get to fly these historic machines.

 

I think ultimately it was just the wrong plane for the Soviets at the wrong time. It was a plane meant for high-altitude combat and not for the lower altitudes, which is where most air combat took place in the East. 

 

As for piloting skill required to fly the MiG-3, Pokryshkin remarked: "The fighter MiG-3...has demanded of the pilot many new skills and additional efforts in training. I liked this machine at once. It could be compared to a hot race horse: under a skilful rider it rushed along like an arrow, but when you lost control you could end up beneath its hoofs. 

 

In any design there will be always a weak point. Excellent fighting qualities of MiG-3 were hidden behind its defects. Advantages of this machine became accessible only to those pilots who were able to find them and use them correctly. 

 

The MiG-3 easily dived, speeding up over 500 km/h, doing after that a looping in 600-700 m (I-16 could give considerably smaller looping heights). This large height is a stock of speed. In flight the MiG-3 was easy and obedient. One movement of the stick changed its position, stopped in revolution. I liked this machine, qualities and conception for attack! "

 

My conclusion from that is that it took a very skilled pilot to be successful with it, and there just were not a lot of those in the VVS in 1941.

Edited February 16, 2015 by LukeFF

[Finkeren]

Quite right Luke.

 

Also, let's not forget, that very few pilots recieved proper training to fly the MiG-3. IIRC there was one or two regiments of the VVS who actually were fully trained on the type, and those recieved quite good results against German high altitude intruders even before the war began in earnest on 22nd of June.

 

Yet, throughout 1941 it was a persistent problem for the MiG-3, that there were always fewer pilots trained to fly them than there were machines available (in 1941 the MiG-3 was no less common than the Yak-1 or LaGG-3) and most pilots recieved only very rudimentary conversion training. Most of them were skilled pilots used to balance on a knifes edge in the notoriously unstable I-16, but they had no time to adjust to a very different aircraft with entirely different quirks and demands and their combat performance tanked accordingly.

[IIN8II]

Quite right Luke.

 

Also, let's not forget, that very few pilots recieved proper training to fly the MiG-3. IIRC there was one or two regiments of the VVS who actually were fully trained on the type, and those recieved quite good results against German high altitude intruders even before the war began in earnest on 22nd of June.

 

Yet, throughout 1941 it was a persistent problem for the MiG-3, that there were always fewer pilots trained to fly them than there were machines available (in 1941 the MiG-3 was no less common than the Yak-1 or LaGG-3) and most pilots recieved only very rudimentary conversion training. Most of them were skilled pilots used to balance on a knifes edge in the notoriously unstable I-16, but they had no time to adjust to a very different aircraft with entirely different quirks and demands and their combat performance tanked accordingly.

 

very true indeed. I remember hearing in a documentary a story about 3 inexperienced MiG pilots trying to intercept a high flying German plane and all 3 pilots entered spins and lost their aircraft.

[Finkeren]

I remember hearing in a documentary a story about 3 inexperienced MiG pilots trying to intercept a high flying German plane and all 3 pilots entered spins and lost their aircraft.

 

That incident happened in early June I think, before the war began. It was one of the primary incidents that caused the design team to quickly introduce automatic slats to the design and force it through on the production lines. The slats were fitted to new aircraft from July onwards. Reading the history of the MiG-3 and the LaGG-3 side-by-side, it's amazing to see, how much the design team was able to improve the MiG compared to the LaGG over such a short time.

[Zak]

Off topic - a real MiG-3 somewhere in Russia

[Finkeren]

Glad to see you here Zak. Hope you will pass on my request and at least give it a thought. No matter what, I believe I'll fall in love with your MiG-3, but I just think it'd be the right thing to do to make the late production variant.

[Brano]

Is there comrade Barsuk inside?

[Zak]

Glad to see you here Zak. Hope you will pass on my request and at least give it a thought. No matter what, I believe I'll fall in love with your MiG-3, but I just think it'd be the right thing to do to make the late production variant.

Will do of course.

Is there comrade Barsuk inside?

Da.

[voncrapenhauser]

FB_IMG_1424108180963.jpg

Off topic - a real MiG-3 somewhere in Russia

What a beauty

Edited February 18, 2015 by voncrapenhauser

[Brano]

Will do of course.

Da.

barsuk_mig2.png

I like that video of him speaking about pros and cons of MiG-3.Real outputs from someone who is actually flying that plane now,in present.I wish I could arrange my holidays to come to Russia and see this aircraft live.Best  together with ishak

[IIN8II]

FB_IMG_1424108180963.jpg

Off topic - a real MiG-3 somewhere in Russia

Can't wait to make some skins for this pretty bird