Macchi 202?205?

[Dakpilot]

At Stalingrad Battle ,it is true that IAR 80 saw more combat than Macchi 202, however they did not feature heavily

 

Production of the IAR 80 tells a different story with only 170 built and 176 of the IAR 81 dive bomber version, compared to 1106/1220/1454 (depending on source)  C202 being produced in two versions which were pretty much identical, save for hardpoints throughout production, while the IAR80/81 were produced in 6 different armament versions during production

 

Considered on a global scale the IAR featured in the Russian Southern front, Stalingrad Battles and Home defence at Ploesti Romania, Whereas the C202 was used in significant numbers in North Africa campaigns, Malta, Sardinia , Sicilian and Italian Campaigns and used in smaller numbers by Croatian Air force and Italian Air force on  Russian front

 

Considering how the C202 fits into the future planeset  with the timeframe for other theatres and the fact that the public vote from both forums was almost a draw it makes perfect sense for the C202 to be modelled over the IAR80 even though I actually voted for the IAR80   

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[ShamrockOneFive]

Seems to me like the MC.202 is a good addition. It being present at the battle is enough for me - just as long as it doesn't show up 100% of the time in the campaign it'll be fine. It also doesn't mean that the IAR won't happen or anything else either.

[LizLemon]

Oddball, Liz, Sturm - give it a rest, please. Why all the aggression and negativity about a few screenshots? It seems like you are trying to find fault with the game.

Its a joke.

 

Why are you taking it so seriously?

[FlatSpinMan]

Really? If so,great. Hard to separate it from the other stuff.

[[KWN]T-oddball]

Oddball, Liz, Sturm - give it a rest, please. Why all the aggression and negativity about a few screenshots? It seems like you are trying to find fault with the game.

 

If you going to try and vilify me with some indignant accusation of blatant negativity than i suggest you counter what I said with a logical reason as to why a plane that is so far off the chart of relevancy  is put ahead of  the planes that actual took place in the battle of Stalingrad in significant numbers and as you can see there are some of Jason's faithful in here questioning the logic behind this choice... so please don't try and paint me, Liz and Sturm as the bad guys  when some of the fans are crying foul as well.

 

Do you really think it is to much to ask for the release of new planes to revolve their relevant participation in the battle for which this sim is named? because if chronological relevant participation of planes used in the battle of Stalingrad no longer matter than I would like the next plane to be the DO335.

[FlatSpinMan]

I agree with reasons for choosing an IAR.

My point is, a few screenshots is exactly that - just a few pictures of something they're working on. It's not an exhaustive list of every single feature they are working on, nor a schedule of when they will work on things, nor an announcement of what content they hope to include. I just don't see why you read so much into it, or worry about it - but there it is.

[kongxinga]

Machi 202 is probably my favorite plane after P-40. While I cringe at having to fly for soviets just to fly the P-40, at least it seems I would have one nice plane on each side to fly most of the time.

[SYN_Luftwaffles]

 they're deliberately not making the IAR just to spite all those who voted for it.

 

 

LOOK AT THAT HE SAID IT

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG.

 

Must post this on a bicycle forum, post haste!

Edited December 25, 2014 by HerrMurf

[Jaws2002]

At Stalingrad Battle ,it is true that IAR 80 saw more combat than Macchi 202, however they did not feature heavily

 

Production of the IAR 80 tells a different story with only 170 built and 176 of the IAR 81 dive bomber version, compared to 1106/1220/1454 (depending on source)  C202 being produced in two versions which were pretty much identical, save for hardpoints throughout production, while the IAR80/81 were produced in 6 different armament versions during production

 

Considered on a global scale the IAR featured in the Russian Southern front, Stalingrad Battles and Home defence at Ploesti Romania, Whereas the C202 was used in significant numbers in North Africa campaigns, Malta, Sardinia , Sicilian and Italian Campaigns and used in smaller numbers by Croatian Air force and Italian Air force on  Russian front

 

Considering how the C202 fits into the future planeset  with the timeframe for other theatres and the fact that the public vote from both forums was almost a draw it makes perfect sense for the C202 to be modelled over the IAR80 even though I actually voted for the IAR80   

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

 

450+ IAR80/81s were produced. There are plenty of pictures of airframes in the field, with serial number over 400. there were around 150 IAR81C (2x20mm+2x7,92mm guns) produced. While not as numerous as the C202, on the Eastern front the IAR was a heck of a lot more visible. from Basarabia during Barbarossa, all the way to Stalingrad, then back all the way to Romania's capitulation in August 1944. Then against the axis until the bitter end, all the way to Czechoslovakia and Austria. And let's not forget the Ploiesti raids done by USAAF.

 If you make a game, and call it Battle of Stalingrad, it's a bad decision to model the C202 instead of the IAR80/81. There are so many things you can do with a historical aircraft. Online missions, offline career, single missions, coops, for both sides. Those slow IARs flew a lot of sorties during that period and did jabo, fighter sweeps, interceptions, escort, dedicated dive bombing... some were even destroyed on the ground by Russian bombers, so you can make historical missions for both sides, for fighters and bombers.

 The C202 will remain off limits for most serious servers.

[Yakdriver]

"Most" "serious" servers have 190.

202 is on its way.

Do not like it, do not use it.

 

happy Xmas.

[FuriousMeow]

I don't see that at all.

 

What I do see is another poor, inarticulate, uncoordinated, misdirected and non sequiter design decision coming out of the workshop.

 

Is this a Machi praise thread?

 

I had thought it was a topic for sensible discussion...

 

Oh joy, a Machi... Thanks 777!.. In Stalingrad... Where there were very few of them in Italian deployment... That there were only a dozen of in German deployment... That flew around 30-40 combat missions... That didn't make much of an impact in the theater...

 

Have you been this displeased with the 190?

 

The 190 that saw no service over Stalingrad?

Oh, you're here to sing praises on a plane that doesn't fit the theater at all? K then... 

 

Unlike the 190, the 202 fits. The 190 saw no service. The 202 saw service.

Edited December 25, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Have you been this displeased with the 190?

 

The 190 that saw no service over Stalingrad?

 

Unlike the 190, the 202 fits. The 190 saw no service. The 202 saw service.

 

No, I disagree with the 190 completely as well.

 

It would have been "cooler" if Axis got the Bf110 as its "premium" and the VVS kept its unique radial La5.

 

Would have added a little spice to things... Either way, I maintain what I said earlier.

[FlatSpinMan]

Don't argue with them guys. There's no point.

They are arguing that the IAR makes more sense from a historical point of view. I think most of us agree with this.

 

Our arguments are:

It was just a few screenshots - we don't know what else is in the works. Maybe they will make the IAR too - we just don't know.

 

Maybe the Devs have based their decision in some other reason, such as player nationality (again, most people here say that historically the best choice is the IAR).

 

We'd rather have any new plane of the period, rather than no new plane, and besides, they may be making others anyway.

 

In summary, it's true that the IAR was more historically significant in BOS, no one really disputes that. The Devs are making new things, at the least including a Macchi, but in all likelihood including others too. For most players, any new plane is interesting and a positive, but some only want specific ones, which is fine and reasonable. They can choose to buy the expansion or not to, and again, that's fine because this is just a hobby after all.

Did I miss anything?

 

I don't see why this is annoying some people.

[Dutch]

I have to admit that it's such an historically important subject that it demands the unbridled attention of amateurs. Of course, this means that it will out-perform any Spitfire.  As we all know by now, the Spitfire was a piece of shit.

 

Oh, I'm sorry. The queston was with regard to Italian aircraft.

 

Errrm, who?

Edited December 25, 2014 by Dutch

[Gunsmith86]

Yes, i think 12 of them flew over the eastern front and probably non of those with dust filters.

 

So it looks like they are really heading for a north africa / mediterranean theatre, which would be good and would probably indicate, that BoS has been a success. They could make good use of their water engine there.

 

It was not uncommon for planes operating in the south to use dust filters. Many 109 and FW190 used it there too so its no surprise that they make on with dust filter for the game.

[Yakdriver]

stop over-interpreting a few screenshots.

 

I mean - We were also given a Santa Screenshot who flew an il-2.
but i still do not see a Santa claus outfit DLC anywhere where you can stuff presents for the Lolwaffle in your back seat instead of an useless gunner.

I want that back seat full of Grenades that i can throw out by flying inverted! just like it showed in the screenshot!

 

And what about that Christmas tree!
No hangar on Any sector of the Front had a christmas tree!

 

those devs are full of it i tell you.

Teasing with Planes nobody wants, showing Pilot clothing that Nobody can Buy and putting up Christmas trees that nobody has any use for, instead of giving us or holy Grail!
full. of. it.

That's what they are!

 

 

 

Come ON!

Stop complaining and discussing and overinterpreting.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Yakdriver

[ST_ami7b5]

[150GCT_Pag]

It was not uncommon for planes operating in the south to use dust filters. Many 109 and FW190 used it there too so its no surprise that they make on with dust filter for the game.

As said here http://forum.il2stur...i-202205/page-2  ALL C.202 have the dust filters, apart the first batch.

The aircraft send to Russia were all brand new, built by Breda factory (Serie VIII)  

[[KWN]T-oddball]

Don't argue with them guys. There's no point.

They are arguing that the IAR makes more sense from a historical point of view. I think most of us agree with this.

 

Our arguments are:

It was just a few screenshots - we don't know what else is in the works. Maybe they will make the IAR too - we just don't know.

 

Maybe the Devs have based their decision in some other reason, such as player nationality (again, most people here say that historically the best choice is the IAR).

 

We'd rather have any new plane of the period, rather than no new plane, and besides, they may be making others anyway.

 

In summary, it's true that the IAR was more historically significant in BOS, no one really disputes that. The Devs are making new things, at the least including a Macchi, but in all likelihood including others too. For most players, any new plane is interesting and a positive, but some only want specific ones, which is fine and reasonable. They can choose to buy the expansion or not to, and again, that's fine because this is just a hobby after all.

Did I miss anything?

 

I don't see why this is annoying some people.

 

"Them guys" ...A little condescending don't you think.... and as for Our arguments are: well you don't have one because this is not about the screens shots in and of themselves this is about another  head scratching ,WTF moment since unlockgate started. There is no way to justify the 202 being done before the I15/16  IAR 80 ,P-40 .etc

 

 

It is a little known fact that the Tomahawks and Kittyhawks with red stars participated in all the decisive battles: the battle for Moscow, at Stalingrad, the defense of Leningrad, in the Kuban, at the Kursk bulge, and beyond to the liberation of eastern Prussia. It is true that nowhere (except in the far north) did their numbers achieve a critical level (as a rule, not more than 1-2 regiments in an air army) and therefore they did not have a deciding influence on the outcome of any battle (as did the Airacobra, for example).

The Kittyhawk was considered an "average" aircraft in the Soviet VVS, better than the I-15, I-16, and Hurricane, but not as good as the P-39, Yak, or Lavochkin. Therefore, the typical P-40 regiment started the war with the I-15, I-16, or MiG-3. After losing these airframes in combat, by early 1942 these regiments were being equipped with the P-40C. Gradually (as a result of subsequent losses) these were replaced by the P-40E and -K. Later two paths emerge: If the regiment did not particularly distinguish itself in combat (greater losses and lesser victories),

[Yakdriver]

so hate the Devs.

 

won't get you any P-40 either.

When are you done with your Model, and when will you submit it to the Devteam?

 

as you said it so aptly with "unlockgate"
not everything is "rational" to you or me.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Yakdriver

[Yakdriver]

i mean... just sayin  - 

if they Push updates on Christmas Eve, i bet you a fiver that they are indeed not only working on one thing, and i am also sure that there must be some way to communicate with them and lend them a hand in fulfilling The Dream ...

 

other than posting back and forth, or Posting in circles on the Forum?!

 

just saying... no harm or offense intended whatsoever.

[1PL-Banzai-1Esk]

It's a normal working week in Russia, they are not doing anything on Christmas Eve because it's not Christmas until 6th of January in Russia.

 

Also according to Jason , the Devs will be off work for over two weeks , from 28th of December till 12th of January.

 

So , all their work is appreciated but don't create a false picture of devs sitting in the office on Christmas Eve working on an update.

 

Most working people in Europe have only two days off around Christmas, Today and tomorrow, one day off for New Years day. Three days in total , against sixteen. There you have it.

[Yakdriver]

the indirect message is that they are well off?

[1PL-Banzai-1Esk]

Sorry for offtop, but the message is that they work hard but they also get more holidays than most working people in Europe. That's it.

[Yakdriver]

Not hard enough - whatever they produce 202/IAR/P40... someone will always take a dump on their choices that are made before even the first Polygon is shaped.

so i guess they get more off duty time, but it is the rest of the world who are the masters at spending our time with complaints?

[1PL-Banzai-1Esk]

Back on topic, I would love to see P-39 Airacobra modelled in BoS , maybe one day.

[Yakdriver]

back on topic,
What series is this Model about... can the wing M's be removed like on the Serie IX?

[FlatSpinMan]

Oddball - we AGREE about the historical matters. My post/s said that.

The issue is the implications of posting a few screenshots.

Anyway, interpret it as you like. Some choose to take this news as a plus, some as a negative. I am in the former camp.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

digital vvs must defend against fascist criticisms

[FlatSpinMan]

Whatever.

[LizLemon]

Oddball - we AGREE about the historical matters. My post/s said that.

The issue is the implications of posting a few screenshots.

Anyway, interpret it as you like. Some choose to take this news as a plus, some as a negative. I am in the former camp.

I interpret the meaning as people not being mad about more content, but angry over new content having little to do with the existing and potentially new theatre.

 

Since Jason said that the mto isn't the next expansion then that leaves very few "other" theatres besides the eastern front for the 205. And in none of those operations did it serve a vital role.

 

This seems to be part of a pattern that 777 has established of following the money so to speak: of making popular and famous planes even if it doesn't make much sense for the time period and theatre. Enter the 190....

 

I jokingly said that maybe they will add the Potez 630 before thr venerable 110. I legitimately love this aircraft but I can understand its exclusion. Only served with the Romanians. Lackluster career in flak suppression. Not a whole lot of missions flown.

 

But even this semi-obscure machine played a larger role during stalingrad then the macchis.

 

And even in the Crimean theatre, where the 205 saw more engagements then stalingrad. . . Even then it still lags behind!

 

Doing a few aircraft for a bit bigger profits is fine. But when it is prevalent and at the expense of more important types then the community has very legitimate concerns about the course of the title.

 

See the questionable types added to rof while historically much more important aircraft are ignored.

 

At this point the potential of bos matters as much as its current quality.

Edited December 26, 2014 by LizLemon

[Feathered_IV]

What if the 202 is just one of a group of new aircraft?   

[LizLemon]

What if the 202 is just one of a group of new aircraft?

Then they choose one of the worst examples to show off first.

 

Since Jason said that it might be a one off, I'd interpret a snake as a snake. Until shown otherwise I don't see a reason to think otherwise besides wishful thinking.

[150GCT_Pag]

back on topic,

What series is this Model about... can the wing M's be removed like on the Serie IX?

 

So speaking about a "serie" concept in Regia Aeronautica.

 

A serie is a production batch of an aircraft, in many cases assigned to  different manufacturers (for C.200 and C-202, for example, beside Macchi are Breda and SAI Ambrosini).

 

Is not like the numbers of a german series (like G-2, 4 - 6, 14 etc.), or english (Spitfire Mk. I - V - IX etc.) where a higher numbers stand for better equipement, better weapon, or powerful engine.

In many cases production of  highers series was started before, depending to manufacturer... see the Serie X that started in sept. 42 while the IX started in november.

 

By the way, the C.202 Folgore retain the same engine in all series, and saw little imporvement or changing..

 

Here they are:

 

Early C. 202 Serie I~III  

First production model of C.202, built from May 1941 to early 1942. The main differences from the prototype was the fixed tailwheel, with front and rear fairing, the canopy without aft glazing, a new cowl arrangement, with a different fairing for the oil cooler, and the slightly different shape of main gear bay doors. The engine mount was in soldered aluminium tubes, instead of the cast type on late series. The Venturi tube was located on the underside, in front of the radiator; the antenna mast was a short slender type, and the supercharger air intake on the port side of the cowling was a straight type, without sand filter (most of early series Folgores were eventually upgraded to a standard antenna mast and sand filtered supercharger air intake, due to they operational theatre in North Africa).   

 

Late C. 202 Serie I~III – Serie IV – Early Serie V

Built from late 1941 to early 1942.

On these aircraft became standard the A.S. type (Africa Settentrionale, North Africa), a trop modification that included mainly the sand/dust filter on the supercharger air intake, but also an enlarged oil cooler, a small cooling cockpit air intake in front of the windscreen, internal fairings for the wheel bay, and others smaller sand/dust countermeasures. Also standard was the long antenna mast, and the cast engine mount. Most aircraft have only the front fairing of the tailwheel, while the rear fairing was removed.

  

Late C. 202 Serie V – Serie VI~X – Early Serie XI

Built in 1942, these aircraft were characterized by the installation of a Breda-SAFAT 7,7mm machine gun on each wing, with 500 rpg; also added a shell ejection port on the underside of each wing. Otherwise this installation was discontinuous, due mainly to increased weight that affected the flight performances of the fighter; the aircraft with the wing’s guns removed had a plate covering the gun ports on the leading edge of the wings. Other modifications were the introduction of a bulletproof windscreen (not on all aircraft), an armor plate added behind the seat to protect the pilot’s back, and also a rear view mirror on the front canopy. From mid 1942, the C.202 was equipped with a new fixed tailwheel, the so-called “D-type”. Moreover, on some aircrafts a small bulge  appeared on each side of the cowling, after the already existing bulge.     

 

Late C. 202 Serie XI – Serie XII~XV

Last production models of the Folgore, were built for about one year from early 1943 to early 1944. The major external differences from previous models were the fabric covered elevators with a hornbalance, a small hot air outlet on the starboard side of the cowl, two access hatches to the nose mounted Breda_SAFAT ammuniton feeds and a reshaped oil cooler outlet. The Venturi tube was moved from the underside to the right side of the fuselage, below the cockpit. Few aircraft were fitted with a  D/F equipement, with the antenna located on the underside of the fuselage, behind the radiator.  About a CB (caccia bombardiere) with two wing racks allowing a 50/100/160 kg bomb or 100lt external tank to be mounted under each wing there are some points to be clarified. On December 23th 1942, the “Ministero dell’Aeronautica” issued an official request for bombs/tanks racks but, there is no evidence that such a 202 version was built and employed by Regia Aeronautica. A reasonable conclusion is that  a study was performed but no CB version was built for the Regia Aeronautica. Later on (1944), Breda built a certain number of  C.202 CB version for the Luftwaffe.

 

Experimental aircraft (C. 202EC – C. 202D)

The C.202 M.M. 91974/Serie XIII was experimentally fitted with two Mauser MG151/20 20mm gunpacks under the wings. Like the installation of the two Breda-SAFAT in the wings, this modification also degraded the aircraft performance and was not suitable of further development. The C.202 M.M. 7768/Serie III, was fitted with a large chin radiator under the nose, replacing both the oil cooler and the main liquid radiator under the belly. Due to the nearly marginal improvement in performance, the development of the aircraft, designated C. 202D, was cancelled. 

 

Here the list of series:

 

Serie I  - Breda - M.M. (serial numbers) 7859~7958 - 100 aircraft -  July ’41/ march’42

Serie II - Macchi - M.M. (serial numbers) 7709~7718 - 10 aircraft -  june ‘41  

Serie III - Macchi - M.M. (serial numbers) 7719~7858 - 140 aircraft -  july ’41/ apr.’42  

Serie IV - SAI Ambrosini - M.M. (serial numbers) 7409~7458 - 50 aircraft  - from oct. ‘42 

Serie V - SAI Ambrosini - M.M. (serial numbers) 7959~8008 - 50 aircraft  - july/aug.’42 

Serie VI - Breda - M.M. (serial numbers) 8339~8388 - 50 aircraft  - from may ‘42  

Serie VII - Macchi - M.M. (serial numbers) 9023~9122 - 100 aircraft  - from may ‘42  

Serie VIII - Breda - M.M. (serial numbers) 8081~8130 - 50 aircraft  - from  june ‘42 

Serie IX - Macchi - M.M. (serial numbers) 9389~9488 - 100 aircraft  - aircraft  - from nov. ‘42 

Serie X - Breda - M.M. (serial numbers) 9500~9599 - 100 aircraft  - from sept. ‘42  

Serie XI -  Breda - M.M. (serial numbers) 6560~6609, 9602~9751 - 200 aircraft  - from feb. ‘43  

Serie XII - Breda - M.M. (serial numbers) 91803~91952 - 150 aircraft  - from  june ‘43  

Serie XIII - Macchi - M.M. (serial numbers) 91953~92002 - 50 aircraft  - from march ‘43  

Serie XIV - SAI Ambrosini - M.M. (serial numbers) 92003~92052 - 50 aircraft  - Planned - not built  

Serie XV - Breda - M.M. (serial numbers) 92053~92152 - 100 aircraft  - Planned - not built  

Serie XVI - Breda - M.M. (serial numbers) 95950~96099 - 150 aircraft  - Planned - not built 

 

Many C.202 airframe were later converted in C.205 aircraft, with the new engine.

Edited December 26, 2014 by 150GCT_Pag

[No601_Swallow]

Then they choose one of the worst examples to show off first.

 

Since Jason said that it might be a one off, I'd interpret a snake as a snake. Until shown otherwise I don't see a reason to think otherwise besides wishful thinking.

 

I think it would be helpful if you prefaced opinion statements with "I think" or "Perhaps" or "In my [humble] opinion". It might avert the danger of coming off as an agressive know-it-all.

 

Personally, I saw a (205) Veltro in the Milan science museum when I was a young man, and became a bit of a macchi "tifoso" on the spot (there's also a De Havilland Vampire up there, so I became a De Havilland fanboy at the same time. 

 

So for me, the 202 is the perfect example to show off first. There's ample historical justification, and it's a cool-looking aeroplane. I love the fact that it's from a different country (just like the G50 in another recent English Channel based WWII cfs, which was not exactly central to its theatre of conflict). I'd also love, the IAR, the P 40 and (pretty please) the Hurricane Mk II. 

 

Honestly. A new plane. What's not to like?

 

And Pag: great information! Tante grazie!

 

Buon Natale a tutti!

[Feathered_IV]

I wonder if the AI only Ju-52 will be the first of many extra types, allowing the game to be fleshed out faster and the inclusion of cockpits to be added at leisure.

[DD_Arthur]

What if the 202 is just one of a group of new aircraft?   

 

I wondered this.  I was under the impression the devs would be releasing new aircraft and theatres as a package rather than single aircraft?

 

Still not quite sure where the Macchi would fit into this though.   

[Rjel]

I wonder if the AI only Ju-52 will be the first of many extra types, allowing the game to be fleshed out faster and the inclusion of cockpits to be added at leisure.

That's been my thought from the beginning. The no AI policy might make sense in RoF, but to get a fully rounded WWII theater fleshed out, some AI airplanes will be badly needed. If they can be made flyable down the road, all the better.

[BraveSirRobin]

I wonder if the AI only Ju-52 will be the first of many extra types, allowing the game to be fleshed out faster and the inclusion of cockpits to be added at leisure.

 

I'm pretty sure they stated that the Ju-52 is a special case.