Two urgent fixs needed for BoS physic

[150GCT_Veltro]

- Landing gear damage model when we dive; this DM is completely missed and it's not really acceptable. You can dive at 700 Km/h and more without any problems for the landing gear, and probably is also missed the drag effect.

 

- Landscape physic need to be tuned because actually the runway are totally unnecessary, we can takeoff and landing in the snow everywhere without much difficult. RoF was much better in this aspect, in BoS is really too easy.

 

Sincerly we have already talked about these problems, but now is really no more acceptable for a sim like BoS. IL2 itself was better here.

Edited December 9, 2014 by 150GCT_Veltro

[Finkeren]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't know what people think is wrong with the landing gear DM. Why would you think that the gear would just get ripped off by the airflow? The landing gear is made to suffer the sudden drag of putting a 3 ton aircraft down on the tarmac at +200km/h. Why would it suffer damage or get ripped off by the airflow?

As for landing in open field, I agree that it's way too easy, especially considering that there's a foot of snow on the ground.

[150GCT_Veltro]

DM is simple missed. You don't feel drag effect or any sort of vibrations......nothing happens. That is why we see so many people fly with landing gear down. They forget to up it, but they don't feel nothing.

 

This should have to suggest you that, wrong or not what you're talking about, the physic seems to be simple completely missed for the landing gear in BoS.

Edited December 9, 2014 by 150GCT_Veltro

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't know what people think is wrong with the landing gear DM. Why would you think that the gear would just get ripped off by the airflow? The landing gear is made to suffer the sudden drag of putting a 3 ton aircraft down on the tarmac at +200km/h. Why would it suffer damage or get ripped off by the airflow?

1. Yeah man, how could a 4 ton Aircraft be lifted into the air by these flappy little wings just by the Airflow? Air is pretty dense stuff (speaking as a student of aeronautical engineering).

2. The Landing Gear shouldn't just be ripped off, yes, what should much rather happen is it getting stuck in Position, Drag, Freezing. Most of the Landing gears have covers, these should rip off first.

3.

this is what happens when Landing wheeled airplanes in not so very deep snow.

[=LD=Hethwill]

Damn crazy video, glad everyone came out okay...

a feet snow is like cement anchoring anything. The higher the speed the harsher the crash.

 

The lowered gear would provoke instability at least given they break the flow right ?

[BlackDevil]

- Landing gear ... and probably is also missed the drag effect.

 

 

 

Nonsense

[Dakpilot]

Agreed on the snow, it does spoil my "immersion" when people just blast off in any direction with scant regard to terrain

 

There is definitely some room for improvement on landing gear DM/FM, I agree on it not being realistic just to have it rip off, it is pretty tough, probably structurally sounder than a lot of bomb/rocket mountings, however some system malfunctions and doors ripping off along with a bit more buffet would be very welcome

 

However as a game breaker it is not a big deal and lower on the priority list, as this is sorted by simply retracting/extending at the correct time, depending on how it affects flight characteristics and drag, I guess it could be used as an exploit, I have not really experimented in that area though (not to find an exploit!  ) simply to find out if gear drag is modelled at this time

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[BlackDevil]

It is modelled, Dakpilot. And it is so easy to check. Why didn´t the OP test it, before making false statements ?

Edited December 9, 2014 by BlackDevil

[Dakpilot]

It is modelled, Dakpilot

 

Thankyou

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Brano]

DM is simple missed. You don't feel drag effect or any sort of vibrations......nothing happens. That is why we see so many people fly with landing gear down. They forget to up it, but they don't feel nothing.

 

This should have to suggest you that, wrong or not what you're talking about, the physic seems to be simple completely missed for the landing gear in BoS.

Do aircrafts with fixed gear also "vibrate of some sort " all the time ? Is it possible to reach same speed lets say in level flight with raised and lowered gear? I did not try that yet.That should show us if there is drag modelled or not.

[BlackDevil]

Veltro:  Just do a glide (same speed with and without gear), stop the time to get the descent rate, and you know it.

Edited December 9, 2014 by BlackDevil

[Brano]

I will not test it,as I do not have to prove that myself.I just suggested that if I put a claim on public forum,I should back it up with evidence.Not to get personal 

[BlackDevil]

...sorry Brano, I only thought, the OP should test it, before he makes a thread. I didnt mean you !

 

 

Yak 1,  no load, 20% fuel,  engine out, speed 250,   1000m glide:

 

without gear:  110 seconds

 

with gear:  65 seconds

 

 

PS:  " You can dive at 700 Km/h and more without any problems for the landing gear"  :   Could you provide your sources, that proove the opposite ?

 

"As for landing in open field, I agree that it's way too easy, especially considering that there's a foot of snow on the ground. "    I agree on that.

Edited December 9, 2014 by BlackDevil

[Brano]

No need to appologize,fellow pilot

[150GCT_Veltro]

@BlackDevil

Do you think you should not feel vibrations at all lowering the landing gear at high speed ecc. ecc., diving or landing at high speed?

 

Just to know.

 

I don't have this kinde of experience, but i feel that somenthing seems to be missed or not yet completed if you prefer.

 

Somebody says also that snow is fine as it's now.....so.

Edited December 9, 2014 by 150GCT_Veltro

[Dakpilot]

Whilst I have never actually flown any of the aircraft in the game, I have a lot of experience with  a few WWII A/C, and always notice, through a bit of buffet/vibration, need for a power change, when the undercarriage is lowered/being lowered at normal landing and occasionally higher (within limits) speeds

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[150GCT_Veltro]

...and...

if you rise the landing gear at high speed, don't you should have to feel a sort of "strong" aerodynamical drag effect (i'm not talking about speed)?

 

Just to know.

 

We are talking in general discussion, not in the developer thread. If we think all is fine, no problem.

Edited December 9, 2014 by 150GCT_Veltro

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

The major issue here is that the "feel" your talking about Veltro cannot be realistically reproduced in-game, as we are sitting behind a desk... No G forces in any direction. We can simulate a lot, but not that (unless we all build ourselves one of those simracing contraptions that toss you around) What Could be discussed however is; as we cannot "feel" this, is there another, maybe visually, way to indicate and half assed simulate this feeling... Maybe vibrations even though a tad exaggerated?

[Dakpilot]

A subtle short cockpit shake effect accompanied by an increased buffet noise during activation would be a good substitute for the buffet/vibration felt in R/L (with very subtle FF effect for those that have it  )

 

However this I am sure could be towards the end of a long list off needed effects

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Brano]

However as a game breaker it is not a big deal and lower on the priority list, as this is sorted by simply retracting/extending at the correct time, depending on how it affects flight characteristics and drag, I guess it could be used as an exploit...

That was the best way how to get out of the flat spin in aircobra in old sturm.And yes,lots of people used their gear as additional airbrake.Standard example of gaming the game

[C-Bag]

I hear way more wind noise, have a harder time trimming the plane properly and can't get close to my usual cruise speed when I've messed up and forgot to raise my gear. I've not tried diving with the gear down but unless something has changed I can't see how you'd get anywheres close to max speed. All aircraft have recommended speeds for lowering the gear because in transition it's not as strong as when it's down and locked. At higher speeds you could shed a gear door and possibly bend a strut so it won't fold right or hold under a hard landing.

 

But I've seen many gun cams where the damaged enemy's plane gear has come down for whatever reason and hasn't torn off. Those have been shallow dives IIRC.

 

The only emergency landings I've done were on frozen over rivers ( the rest were crashes and I could see the ice so that went as expected. But when I watch documentary films of Stalingrad what's on the ground doesn't seem to be fluffy skiing type snow. It's more akin to hardback or ice. It was a lot colder than I can even imagine being a California native. But I would think it would be an iffy thing landing out in a field.

[sallee]

I've always had the impression that the nose pitches down when undercarriage is lowered.

[Leaf]

Landing gear and flaps should be ripped off at high speeds, but I'm sure the devs are aware of that and simply haven't, for whatever reason, added it yet.

 

Should snow handling be different? Depends on the depth of the snow. I don't know how much snowfall there was during the battle/how deep the snow was in certain parts and that's pretty important in determining whether something should be changed.

[Dakpilot]

I've always had the impression that the nose pitches down when undercarriage is lowered.

 

While generally true in some/most instances, sometimes the opposite happens, but I am having a senile moment and cant remember the examples

 

 

Landing gear and flaps should be ripped off at high speeds, but I'm sure the devs are aware of that and simply haven't, for whatever reason, added it yet.

 

 

 

While landing gear can certainly be damaged, being ripped, off even at very high speed is not a certainty, consider how it is bolted/mounted and the strength required to cope with a heavy landing

 

 

 

Landing gear is usually "bolted on" using heavier attachments than the wings of many aircraft, the activation equipment and gear doors are another matter though

 

 guess it should be applied depending on landing gear type/strength

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[150GCT_Veltro]

Landing gear and flaps should be ripped off at high speeds, but I'm sure the devs are aware of that and simply haven't, for whatever reason, added it yet.

 

Should snow handling be different? Depends on the depth of the snow. I don't know how much snowfall there was during the battle/how deep the snow was in certain parts and that's pretty important in determining whether something should be changed.

 

Thank, i really hope you're right.

 

I don't think landing gear physic enviroment could be considered "secondary" in a flight sim.

[Yakdriver]

first one is from the 190, but what is the second gear of? Yak, La-5, Thud, whatever i check for... with such big wheels, wing shape, mechanism...can not figure it out.
?! help a fellow man...

[150GCT_Veltro]

As said above, i hope Leaf is right and developers are on it.

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/12278-bug-flying-gear-down/

 

Landing gear could not be ripped as Dakpilot says, and he's right i think depending on landing gear type/strength, but somenthing should have to happen even if only a structural shake or damage. About the feeling in general, we have yet in game shake during the high speed when diving, so i don't think it would be a problem.

 

You can lower the gear landing at 700 km/h without any sort of problem and/or flight feeling enviroment. For my opinion it has not been coded yet.

 

In this situation, a developer blog about fixs in development would be more than enough.

Edited December 9, 2014 by 150GCT_Veltro

[JG300_Olrik]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't know what people think is wrong with the landing gear DM. Why would you think that the gear would just get ripped off by the airflow? The landing gear is made to suffer the sudden drag of putting a 3 ton aircraft down on the tarmac at +200km/h. Why would it suffer damage or get ripped off by the airflow?

As for landing in open field, I agree that it's way too easy, especially considering that there's a foot of snow on the ground.

Did you ever fly a glider ? Open airbrakes just a half inch out of the wing above 200 km/h is like jumping with two feet on the brake pedal of a car.The aerodynamic drag is very strong. Open airbrakes at max speed (300 km/h) is possible but you have to be very careful !

I think you can't imagine how strong it would drag if you lower the landing gear at such high speed. The drag increase with the square of speed : from 200 km/h to 600 km/h, the drag will increase x 9 !!! Such a horizontal drag is to much for a landing gear even if built to bear vertically the weight of 3 tons.

[sallee]

While generally true in some/most instances, sometimes the opposite happens, but I am having a senile moment and cant remember the examples

 

 

 

 

I was meaning in game, by the way...didn't make that clear! I will try tonight, but I'm sure it does in the Il-2 and the LaGG.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't know what people think is wrong with the landing gear DM. Why would you think that the gear would just get ripped off by the airflow? The landing gear is made to suffer the sudden drag of putting a 3 ton aircraft down on the tarmac at +200km/h. Why would it suffer damage or get ripped off by the airflow?

As for landing in open field, I agree that it's way too easy, especially considering that there's a foot of snow on the ground.

U are right but wrong. U may be right that if u consider the drag as a static force the gear would most likley not fail but the dynamic forces (flutter) could destroy them in seconds. Flutter happens when the frequency of the ddynamic force approaches the natural frequency of the structure, then the two are equal the structure is essential undamped and will resonate to distruction. It's the same as when a singer breaks a glass with their voice. Flutter only really tends to increase with speed so it's very plausible that the gear would come off and I would go as far as saying that it could posibly damage the wing spa as well

[Sokol1]

In Russian forum is said that there is no damage to the landing gear because which can eventually be damaged at high speed is his hydraulic system and this is not modeled in game.

[MarcAnton]

Guys just do it on your own - get into a dive and when you reach 700+ you will loose your rudders, your elevators, your wing can dismount BUT - the gear comes out smoothly and retracts like nothing is going on ..... my 2 cents ? NUTS !! 

[69th_chuter]

I always liked how in 1946 you could extend the Corsair "air brake" (main landing gear) at any speed and they would fully extend with no damage.  But put the "landing gear" down at too high a speed and it all fell off.  In reality, the tailgear doors were quite vulnerable during high speed flight so the tailwheel was locked out and the main gear extended at up to, I believe, about 350 knots (above 225 knots the gear wouldn't fully extend but were still effective).  Also, the Hellcat could do the same exact thing with its gear but not in the game.  (The Hellcat was once dead-dropped 12 feet and only suffered flat tires.)

 

The initial P-51D's arriving in England had a problem where on dive pullouts the hydraulic system wasn't able to hold the main gear up (no gear uplocks) and they drooped enough to contact the inner doors causing the leg doors open a bit (it seems like the leg doors would come off but I don't recall this mentioned in the crash reports) and the resulting aero loads increased the nose up attitude, increasing the G load causing wing failure.  But the gear was still in the wing.  I might have rigged a gear leg stop in the center of the inner door as a fix but the gear leg uplock was re-instated.

 

I agree the gear should be rather sturdy in the game but the doors are the weak link, on some planes more-so during cycling than simply down.

 

PS - we once had a 737 takeoff from San Francisco with the gear locks still on and the pilot elected to just run on down to LA rather than land and relaunch.   (Max gear retraction: 235 knots, max gear extension: 270 knots, max gear speed: 320 knots)

Edited December 9, 2014 by chuter

[MarcAnton]

I checked it in Clod and there you cant get the gear out above 250 kmh - but if its out and you go into a dive the speed becomes limited to 600 kmh (with 109 E3) but no damage occurs to the gear or hydraulics.

[andyw248]

Lower the landing gear on downwind and feel the impact on airspeed and attitude. Seems correct to me. Also, leave the gear down after takeoff, and try to get that thing up to speed... But yeah, the gear doors should be ripped off at speeds higher than a certain limit.

[voncrapenhauser]

Lower the landing gear on downwind and feel the impact on airspeed and attitude. Seems correct to me. Also, leave the gear down after takeoff, and try to get that thing up to speed... But yeah, the gear doors should be ripped off at speeds higher than a certain limit.

Agreed....seems ok to me every time I landed??

[150GCT_Veltro]

Some effect...somenthing to feel us we are lowering a landing gear in the wrong way, some shakes, structural vibration...somenthing.

[voncrapenhauser]

Some effect...somenthing to feel us we are lowering a landing gear in the wrong way, some shakes, structural vibration...somenthing.

I seem to remember the ME109 having a warning claxon if you lowered the gear above a certain speed I read ....but yes some buffeting should occur for sure ...... minor shakes maybe.

A subtle short cockpit shake effect accompanied by an increased buffet noise during activation would be a good substitute for the buffet/vibration felt in R/L (with very subtle FF effect for those that have it  )

 

However this I am sure could be towards the end of a long list off needed effects

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Agreed ....something subtle like that.

Edited December 12, 2014 by voncrapenhauser

[JG1_Pragr]

Hard to compare but i.e. F-16 nowadays has the gear down limit for 300 knots. It doesn't mean the gear is rip off when the plane flies faster, but actually it needs to be inspected if it's down on higher speed. What I know there is no problem with ripping the gear off at higher speed unless the plane break or is close to sonic speed.

 

It doesn't mean that nothing should happen when you fly with gear down exceeding the limits. The gear system is actually stressed in different axis than it is designed for so some damage is probably occur. Consequently collapsing is more likely to happen during the landing. 

Edited December 12, 2014 by II./JG1_Pragr

[CF-105]

What I think needs to be done with the gear is modelling flexibility.  Currently, you can extend the gear at 900 Km/h with no issue, although the gear covers will rip off.  I imagine that the gear would flex or bent just a little at least at speeds close to 1000 Km/h.

 

What is much much more important is landing:  right now, you can plunk you aircraft down as hard as you can (without exploding it) and the wings and tail will rip off before your landing gear crumples of even breaks off.  Say you bounce hard on the runway, you gear will break.... in a violent manner, several seconds after impact, only when above the ground, or several seconds after coming to a halt.  I can imagine previously damaged landing gear snapping off while at high speeds or Gs, or after a few rough bounces, but right now it looks like it's ejecting from the vehicle, especially with the little puff of metal fragments when it comes loose.