How do you feel about vulching in multiplayer?

[JG300_Fried]

You have made a point.  I Did not considerate things this way

[=LG/F=Kathon]

BUT killed my chute.....W.H.Y.??????????????

How many pilots or virtual soldiers did you kill in this game? Maybe you deserved?

Edited November 12, 2014 by =LG=Kathon

[JG300_Fried]

How many pilots or virtual soldiers did you kill in this game? Maybe you deserved?

No, It's not me. It's the autopilot inX2 to grind those f@#!!è-&éç^^\`['(-"è_!!!!!!  unlocks!

Edited November 12, 2014 by Fried300

[WhoCares]

Loitering above an airfield to kill new-spawns is not fun for them. And if that's a regular experience for someone, he will stop playing online.

Instead, with the few players that are online, I would prefer to make sure that everybody has a good time and comes back.

Of course blowing the enemy up on the ground is normal or even preferred in war, but we are playing a game. And online multiplayer ist best with many other players, so some self-restriction to allow fun for everyone might be wise.

 

With respect to shooting up the pilot on a chute, that's a war crime under Protocol I of the Geneva Convention. Granted that's from 1949, but as we are in 2014 we can still adhere to it, even in a computer game.

[=LG/F=Kathon]

Yes we are in 2014 but the game is about 42-43 and at that time there wasn't Protocol of the Geneva Convention.

 

Crime is to shoot to anyone.

 

 

About vulching: I like vulching and being vulched.

Edited November 14, 2014 by =LG=Kathon

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I'm totally sharing WhoCares impression of this issue. Especially since the 33 player count restriction dogfights at open areas and high altitude are less common than ever before, instead it's ground bashing above 1 or 2 airfields all the time.

It doesn't only drive players of MP but also creates a bad image of the server they're flying on, which in most cases isn't closely justified (there are great dedicated servers and it's a shame vulching drives them to strave imersion).

 

So yea given it's a virtual envirounment and has pretty straight forward limitations, namely the player count and game mechanics, it's simply a no go. No one can say vulching the enemy team till all of them are driven off the server is the goal of setting up a great time consuming multiplayer mission with objectives and proper win conditions.

[Lusekofte]

My impression is that people mistake airbase attack with vulching, it can at best historical be compared with night intruder missions over france done by alone Hurricanes . They attacked alone night fighters about to land or take off. And bombers.

ME-232 and 163 was vulched, kind off when landed, but it was never done alone. In historical perspective no one flew alone over enemy territory daytime for vulching airfields.

It was suicide

Edited November 15, 2014 by LuseKofte

[SharpeXB]

Ground attack is a big factor here and attacking airfields in WWII was commonplace. If I'm flying a bomber or ground attack plane those enemy aircraft on the ground are the chief target. Vulnerability of airfields should be limited by AAA and fighter cover though.

[WhoCares]

Ground attack is a big factor here and attacking airfields in WWII was commonplace. If I'm flying a bomber or ground attack plane those enemy aircraft on the ground are the chief target. Vulnerability of airfields should be limited by AAA and fighter cover though.

Which is fine. Attack the airfield and destroy the available targets. But don't loiter above the airfield to wait for players to spawn and only attack those.

That's not realistic, but exploiting a game mechanic, where players pop up in new planes, instead of pilots running from barracks/bunkers to mount the planes standing at their parking position...

And it is not fun for those at the receiving end, which in the long run might chase players away as well. If you believe some posts on the forum this is already happening

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Fakt is we ser this behaviour on all servers currently, including those with proper mission objectives with large scale areas.

 

Due to the small player number finding aerial targets is close to impossible, even above key areas.

 

Its more than obvious the easiest way to get to them is to take a visit to their airfield and eventuelly vulch them.

 

Thats why also newcomers tend to vulch joining large expert servers. To me the issue was less before the map radar introduction.

 

If i was a mission desinger working hard on a objective based mission and seing everybody not caring at all but just vulching I'd be pretty upset.

[SYN_Jedders]

We are trying something new on Thursday on the server. Essentially tho it will not please the non-vulch crowd

 

Each side will start with a single distant airfield. Flight time between these two fields is pretty extensive and I don't envisage a lot of vulching....even so, you cant say it wont ever happen.

 

Each side has a choice of two forward fields to "engage" by supplying them. Each field has a different aircraft available on it so if you want better aircraft you gotta protect the field. This is where it gets tricky, these forward fields are also enemy targets. They can be "disabled" by OPFOR bombers. Basically if you don't protect em they will be lost and you begin all over again with supply from back base.

 

This way it really is up to the team to act like a team. no-one wants to engage forward field?...fine...you can all fly lesser aircraft from back fields. Don't wanna protect your forward filed?...fine, you will end up back at  the furthest field. don't wanna bomb enemy fields?...fine, they will get batter aircraft. A team that works together should have an easier time.

 

Unfortunately the 32 player limit will not allow this extensive map to be used at the best of its ability, so consider Thursday a test to see if ppl really do like objective based missions with teamplay at the fore...

Edited November 19, 2014 by SYN_Jedders

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

Dont see mich difference between shooting chutes and guys sgarting up their engines. Only difference between both is that one of them at least had his chance.

 

It comes down to what each individual feels doesn't it? Or how the online servers or mission builders want it to be. I'm quite sure after taking in consideration all the real incidents of personnel being shot in their chutes, and the simple fact that most of can't wrap our minds around the reality of this in our "Respawn Mentality" of a game. We'll each have to decide how we want to treat this.

 

Chief

[HagarTheHorrible]

No problem with vulching..........., but only if attacking an enemy airfield is very dangerous and pretty much suicidal if the airfield defences are awake and know you are coming.

 

Loitering around and shooting up aircraft as they spawn in though is beneath contempt otherwise.

[Zettman]

S!

 

A yes for me. I just apply the Rules of Engagement I learned in military school. If it is a legitimated military target, you are free (better: you have) to engage it. A plane on the runway, waiting to take off is a threat to my forces and therefore a legitimated target.

 

 

Dont see mich difference between shooting chutes and guys sgarting up their engines. Only difference between both is that one of them at least had his chance.

 

I completely disagree here. A pilot hanging in a chute is no threat anymore, he can't harm friendly or allied troops. Therefore he is no legitimated military target, at least that's what the Rules of Engagement say. Paratroopers on the other hand are legitimated military targets (even if some of the guys I know, who are serving as German Fallschirmjäger always say that it is "not fair" to shoot them down before they reach the ground  ). A arguable different story is, if the pilot will be in action only a short time after he was shot down (BoB).

 

For me that means I will not shoot people hanging in a parachute but I will engage planes on the runway if I don't see more dangerous target (plane in the air, plane in combat with friendlies). I can understand that some of you find it annoying to be shoot on the runway, but  as long as it isn't excessive airfield camping (waiting until new planes spawn) I see no real problem with it. Just end the mission and chose another airfield, it will only take a few minutes.

 

Zettman

[Lusekofte]

First off, this is a new game, it is not settled yet. I hope serious squads will enter the servers, where teamplay is essential and not points. Points is not essential but people seems to think so. Vulch is not a problem for me, if they occur twice I am out of there. I have no time waisting in bs. 

But it is a normal thing in all sims, it is not new. But many times it happens when a plane just fly by, If I fly past a airfield and see one taking off I shoot him , and fly on. It will also be remembered as a vulc, but it is not. It is simply not smart turning your back to a enemy

Edited December 9, 2014 by LuseKofte

[A_S]

 

How do you feel about vulching in multiplayer?

 

 

Loosers need kills too

[Bearcat]

I define vulching as when a fighter aircraft strafes enemy aircraft on the ground with bullets.

 

I don't mind if people vulch with rockets or bombs to fufill ground strike roles, but when a Yak or 109 is just circling the airfield and strafing aircraft as they spawn in, is a cheap way to play.

 

Depends..

 

Wouldn't it depend on the mission?  If the mission is to go shoot up the enemies airfield then go for it!  Anyway, mission builders should work to make loitering over airfields suicidal.

 

Exactly..

 

However I think that shooting planes as they spawn in is just wrong under any circumstances. People talk about how it was.. but this isn't how it was.. I don't  vulch breathers if I can help it unless there are mitigating circumstances. I also do not shoot guys in chutes under any circumstances. Why? To me that is just a kiddie boy game schtik.. I will shoot a landing smoker after a good fight .. but I do not shoot live planes taking off either. I have been on the receiving end of that and it is just no fun. I see no fun in maintaining an E advantage over an enemy base and just dropping down to pick them off one they gain alt either..  If you are going to do this then do it with a certain amount of pride I say.. There is no challenge in diving down on someone with an E advantage.. when you know exactly where he is going to be because you are hanging out over his base. That kind of vulching IMO is never justified either. It's different if you have been fighting and you come upon an enemy base or you chase a guy home.. otherwise it is real CS.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I completely disagree here. A pilot hanging in a chute is no threat anymore, he can't harm friendly or allied troops. Therefore he is no legitimated military target, at least that's what the Rules of Engagement say.

Zettman

Sure in reality things are different and we always have to keep in mind BoS is no war replication. If it really was none would like to play it, war isn't fun.

 

Ingame both are harmless preys, if  juts only temporarily. On Expert servers like the Syn taxi ways take you about 5min to get on the strip which combined with the startup time makes you a practical a sitting duck.

Call it fair or not, it's a game braker with the current player number and drives people off MP.

 

And again no one can argue about vulchers having a sense for war fairness when carrying out their senseless killfests. It's just a personal legitimation rather than an atmospheric improveent.

 

For the record attacking airfields with bombers is fine to me if oyu have the guts to penetrate the flaks with it. Fighters on the other hand abuse uneffective flak protection and spoil the whole MP.

[JG5_Schuck]

I voted YES, its part of life at a front line airfield.

Saying that though, the Flak needs beefing up abit, more low altitude stuff, Quad barrel Flak 38's etc.

And really people should take it in turn to fly CAP not go galloping off to get the next Kill.

 

So vulch away!

[Lusekofte]

I think there will always people that vulch, new are releasing the old that get tired of it. Experience will learn everyone it is not worth while. 

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Most interestingly vulchers recently always quit once shot down.

It simplybshows they're uninterested killrampers that fly only for their virtual ego. That's probably correct since there were many egomanic pilots in realuty that didnt follow any order but sacrafiised them self in an attempt to kill as many people as possible?

 

Seriously though the only thing I'm more tired of than vulchers are bad vulchers. Had an guys attacking me at a powerless emergency landing and he nearly crashed earlier than me trying to set shots.

 

But I guess it's pointless to diskcuss it with vulchers, it's all historically correct after all and we're replaying a brutal virtual war, right? Seems like those people have absolutely no idea what real war is like and what flight sim games are intendet to be (read FLIGHT sim, not "super brutal war like kill rampage" sim).

 

If you want fun MP with lots of people stop driving them off for your personal temporarily enjoyment.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Zettman]

S!

 

If you don't want to get vulched, just ask your team which airfields are clear and you are all good, shouldn't be that difficult. Most servers offer more than enough airfields, so it is very unlikely that all are camped.

 

I am amazed what ill will some people seem to have against people that attack planes on the runway (taking of or trying to land). Even if this is not a 'real' war, that means not that we are not allowed to do what happened so often in WW2. I mean weren't more planes destroyed on the ground than in the air? As long as it doesn't end up in spawn killing and completely camping an airfield it is fine. You may say that you don't play this to simulate war, but what is wrong on roleplaing this like a war, and trying to follow the rule of it (not shooting pilots in chutes and such). For me this is fun if I try to stick to some RoEs.

 

Getting strafed while trying to take of adds a lot of atmosphere to the game, as long as it doesn't happen all the time, but than again it is my own fault for not asking my team which airfields are not under attack.

 

Some make it sound as if it is only allowed to attack an enemy on equal footing, about same energy, same alt, both have seen each other and made a first friendly pass with out shooting before engaging seriously, everything else would be a punishable crime. As long as it is permitted by the server rules, no one should have to fear to be badmouthed for playing within the rules.

 

That said I will not vulch on a server that does not allow it and I won't have any problems with not being able to vulch. But badmouthing player that just play within the rules (even if it is not the bright chivalry like gameplay) is wrong in my opinion.

 

And here comes my favorite argument again: Were light is has to be shadow. You can not roleplay that chivalry like pilot that always fights fair and square, if there are not pilots that don't fight that way. Well you might say that you are not roleplaying anything and just want to dogfight, but telling all pilots to do so is a bit over the top.

 

Zettman

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Changin airfields isn't always an option. Have a look at the new syndicate server for example, it offers 3 fields per side with very restrictive plane selection. If you want to fly lets say a Fw190 or a Peshka you can only chose from one airfield (and hope it's in stock).

Another drop is that airfields soon run out of planes one after another leaving oyu with no alternatives.

 

I never sayed anything against coordinated attacks. I've once escorted 2 Heinkels with another 109 for an airfield bombardment at 5 km alt flying a predefined route. This is the kind of airfield attacks I appreciate, not the dirty way of fighters camping at ground level killing spawning (not flying / taking off) aircraft.

 

If we do everything the server allows we're back in the days with guys pulling their internet-Plug once having a six and flying to map borders to shake guys off ect. It's allowed so why don't apply it, it's gamey and annoys simmers as hell but get's you kills.

 

I'm not exclusively talking to you btw although we also had our spezial "engagement" already

Edited December 16, 2014 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[Zettman]

Changin airfields isn't always an option. Have a look at the new syndicate server for example, it offers 3 fields per side with very restrictive plane selection. If you want to fly lets say a Fw190 or a Peshka you can only chose from one airfield (and hope it's in stock).

Another drop is that airfields soon run out of planes one after another leaving oyu with no alternatives.

 

Than these Servers have to make up with spezial rules to prevent people from vulching. If it is not allowed I will not do it, it is that simple. DED Servers have more than enough airfields for example.

 

If we do everything the server allows we're back in the days with guys pulling their internet-Plug once having a six and flying to map borders to shake guys off ect. It's allowed so why don't apply it, it's gamey and annoys simmers as hell but get's you kills.

 

I for myself don't need the kills. For me it is enough if the airplane he flys is out of the game and won't return to his airfield. So he can plug out his cable as much as he wants. I play this game to take out as much planes as possible and to win the war of resources, thats what a game about war is about for me. How I already said, killing a plane in the air, on the ground or one trying to land on his airfield (cause it will be in stock on most servers again if he labnds succesfull) is in my RoEs okay, killing pilots in chutes or one trying to crashland on an opne field not.

 

I'm not exclusively talking to you btw although we also had our spezial "engagement" already

 

I already said that I had a bad day that time. So I just wanted to shoot something up. Going for you the first time was ok in my RoEs, IL-2 sitting on the airfield, legitimated target. Going right to the next airfiled where I exspected you to spawn was not, cause I would consider it as spawncamping, even if it was another airfield I clearly had the intention to met you there again. I apologize for that again. I would have stop after that one airfield attack, but you were motivating me quiete good on the chat.

 

All in all I don't thing we can solve this issue here. It has to stand in the rules of the servers or else people can not be forced to play like some people want them. Especially with the people that the Devs are trying to attract this issues will get worse.

I will happy follow the server rules on which I play (Serverrules > my RoEs). But as long as I can play free, I will go for every chance to decimate the enemy firce I see.

 

Another point that I came accross yesterday is that we need a clear defenition of what is vulchering and what not. Yesterday I was flying with two Fw 190s with bombs to an factory in my Bf 109. We lost one Fw 190 to AAA at the factory. The other Fw 190 started to climb again and I decided to go down to 500m and fly home (fuel). On my way back I passed Karprovka (Russian) airfield and was seeing a plane that tried to land. I decided to go to 1000 m as I approached the airfiled to have the option to gain speed fast if needed. I soon saw two other planes circling at 1000m above the airfiled which I decided to attack. Long story short I got one of the two guys and went back home losing the other one. After I got away, I could read vulcher in the chat, not sure if it was clearly aimed at me, cause I was already far away from Karprovka and some time had passed as I got that guy.

So was this vulching? They both where in the air and for me it didn't look like they just took of. They where not aligned with the runway and had already gained some altitude, yet it could have been that they just took of 5 minutes ago.

 

Is vulching just applied to planes on the runway/taxiway, to planes that just took off (still aligned with the runway and low on alt), to planes that are circling over the airfield to gain more altitude/group in a formation (already several minutes in the air). What is with planes that try to land, when is the plane still returning to home base and when is it already in the progress to land (gear out, flaps down?). This all has to made clear, so that everyone knows what the others are talking about and that possible rules are not broken by misunderstandings.

 

Zettman

[SYN_Vorlander]

Virtual pilots are spending their time bitching about vulching on the forum. Maybe the pilots on the deck should learn to take off and shoot down the enemy. It's a skill. Learn it and enjoy your victory when you kill the attacking high plane.

[Zettman]

Virtual pilots are spending their time bitching about vulching on the forum. Maybe the pilots on the deck should learn to take off and shoot down the enemy. It's a skill. Learn it and enjoy your victory when you kill the attacking high plane.

 

But if the airfield gets completely camped by a few players and there are no other airfields left, these pilots on the deck have all right to complain (words like 'bitching' won't help to deescalated this discussion). But this might be a problem of definitions agian. Is vulching=spawncamping or not for you?

 

Strafing some planes on the ground is all good for me, camping one airfield for more than 10 minutes and killing everyone that spawns there is not in my opinion. But yeah, opinions may differ.

 

Zettman

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Vorlander, note I'm mainly referring to my expirience on your server.

 

Your settings require full engien startup, taxiig to the runway and finally the TO which is great, as it adds a fun and realistic elent to the combat envirounment.

 

Just "learning to take off fast" isnt possible under such restriction and fighters circling around the (well obvious and exposed) spawn point waiting for fresh prey.

 

I regularily face vulchers and sometimes manage to take off in ermergency and engage them. Not only t safe my skin but to allow other allies to start up and take off without getting vulched straight away.

 

Possible solutions are present in other games already. Crazily strong AAA, planes getting a invincebility timer when spawning or having the spawn areas covered with props.

 

Most of them are gamey, not appreciated in a sim, but i feel those are some of the last tricks we can pull out to stop this from turning mission servers into a "both sides endless vulchfest".

Edited December 16, 2014 by Stab/JG26_5tuka

[SYN_Vorlander]

Maybe the solution would be for the server admins not to show the enemy airfields on the map. But sooner than later virtual pilots will find the active airfields.

 

I enjoy taking off while enemy planes are active in the area. Look for a cloud that will give you cover during take off. Most of the kills are pilots taking off in a straight line and climbing to heaven. That will never work.

And just like unlocks enemy planes attacking an airfield is not going to change.

[Matt]

All airfields should be active and all airfields should be protected by AAA and planes destroyed on the ground (=before it took-off) should count as a ground kill.

 

I think that would help.

 

Not sure about the impact on performance, but i think 10 airfields total shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[SYN_Vorlander]

All airfields should be active and all airfields should be protected by AAA and planes destroyed on the ground (=before it took-off) should count as a ground kill.

 

I think that would help.

 

Not sure about the impact on performance, but i think 10 airfields total shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Sounds like a plan.

[SOLIDKREATE]

Vulching is considered a very noobish thing to do. It is very lazy to say the least. All you have to do is hang out and wait for people to spawn. I know it happened in real life but real planes just don't 'spawn' like that. It has really cheapened my experience which is why I play 90% offline now. Until we get admins of servers who give a damn and just air start people; it will continue. The people who voted "All is fair in love and war" are most likely from the War Thunder crowd. I wish the game code could be written so that if a plane is detected on the runway the plane is invincible.

[Matt]

No real planes wouldn't spawn, but they would already be there. Either on the runway or some other place on the airfield. Most likely in a worse position and at a bigger disadvantage than in BoS (the plane atleast, probably not the pilot, but then the pilot can check his radar map in BoS if enemies are nearby and stay invincible).

 

Afaik (i'm not a War Thunder expert myself), the invincible plane feature is present in War Thunder, so i'm not sure why the "War Thunder crowd" or War Tunder in general has anything to do with this topic.

 

 

Imho, there's nothing wrong with vulching. But something is wrong if vulching becomes the dominant tactic/behaviour in MP. And i doubt that something like invincible planes or strict rules against this or simply telling people that it's a noobish or lazy thing to do, are the best ideas to fix this issue.

[SOLIDKREATE]

Imho, there's nothing wrong with vulching. But something is wrong if vulching becomes the dominant tactic/behaviour in MP. And i doubt that something like invincible planes or strict rules against this or simply telling people that it's a noobish or lazy thing to do, are the best ideas to fix this issue.

 

 

That's what I mean! The WT reference means that I feel only kiddies vulch. I will never do it. I have seen a 109's coming off the deck and I will buzz them and rock my wings and give them time to get to me then I start the fight. I still can't see the validity of vulching when you always know you can exploit the game mechanics. But it has become the dominant tactic and I have seen it done by a lot of the same pilots.

[ACG_Smokejumper]

It's war. Once that engine is fired up you are fair game.

 

There are airfield choices farther away if you dislike spawn rape.

 

 

 

As a WWII simulator I feel it my responsibility to play as accurately as possible. I will use every dirty rotten trick to ruin your day and I expect the same in return.

Edited December 20, 2014 by CDN-SMOKEJUMPER

[SE.VH_Boemundo]

It's normal! If a base is being attacked you should take off from another one!

[Noe]

Sim, claro!

[wtornado]

I find it wierd how the AAA in this game is just

eye candy and nothing more.

 

Not hard to guess why I like Co-oP's so much.

 

With my AAA setups you had to be very brave

or down right stupid to go vulch at the end of

my missions.

 

You did not get vulched in my missions unless

you were Allied in my Operation Bodenplatte

mission.

 

Predetermined flight paths and engagements

solved that issue.You had to lock horns on

equal ground.

 

What ever it is their game their rules their choice my money.

[beepee]

I don't mind it.

 

Vulching happened in RL (including when people were trying to get into aircraft or take off).

 

As a side note. I just finished reading Helmut Lipfert's (JG52) memoirs. He mentioned (more than once), that a kill was not a kill until the aircraft was seriously damaged or on fire when grounded.

[oneeyeddog]

Yours would be the middle

 

I don't mind at all if I get "vulched" by bombers/ground attack aircraft as that's their role, especially in this game where the life expectancy of a Stuka pilot is probably 2 sorties.

 

I'm talking about the 109/Yak/190/Lagg/La's just shooting up aircraft to stack their kill count.

I agree. 

[361fundahl]

I love blowing people apart on the runway

Plus I enjoy seeing it myself as my plane gets ripped to shreds as I'm struggling to take off and get enough airspeed to pull some decent G turns

Plus sometimes they miss and you get a sweet shot right into them as they fly past

Plus sometimes they miss and you get a sweet shot right into them as they fly past