Poll: Pilot sim in the flight sim?

[Zak]

Hi everyone.

I'm asking about not only visual and sound features (like noisy breath in black-out), but gameplay changers as well (g-tolerance, it's influence).

As a bonus for this poll - German fighter pilot model that flies our Messerschmitts.

 

 

[6S.Manu]

Thanks Zak!

 

I voted yes.

[SYN_Vander]

Mere speculation, but will the pilot's ability to withstand g-forces etc. be a personal attribute? Or to be improved over time?

[leitmotiv]

can you be more clear about this "physiological reactions"

 

dose this mean my pilot will be scared in some situations so ill not be able to control all my airplane functions?

or my pilot will be tired after 1h+ mission in cold weather so it will be harder to move controls of the airplane and my vision will be reduced?

or my pilot will be tired because he just flyed 5 missions in that day so ill have slow movment of controls and bad reaction times when im presing triger? 

or 15-20 min of hard turning with high G dogfight like hes stamina will decrise with loot of constant G loads on hes body, and youll have to recharge it? 

or every pilot will have some diferant kined of expiriance and you will have to train him and give him some XP points after mission to be better like in that WT arcade game?

or will i have to go to gym like in GTA and train my pilot, or he will get better in fatigue/stamina as more G i putt on him in air?

Edited August 19, 2013 by Yaklover

[MACADEMIC]

Gameplay as in a pilot career where you build up more G-restistance with career advancement, I'd say no. Better maintain an equal playing field with all pilots from all sides being subjected to the same physiological effects and let the pilots' skills/handling of the technology available determine the outcome of encounters.

 

MAC

 

P.S.: Zak, I hope I understood your question right - modelling of blackout, breathing is standard, but you are asking about individual effects?

Edited August 19, 2013 by MACADEMIC

[leitmotiv]

or will i have to press some button x amount of time so my pilot sustained better G, stimulating my squeezing of muscles to have better G sustaining ability?

 

that would be funny

 

and what when my pilot i just trained good dyes? 

Edited August 19, 2013 by Yaklover

[kestrel79]

Some things I'd like to see for pilot effects:

 

-standard blackout/redout

-breath in cockpit (if your heater isn't on or gets damaged)

-smoke in cockpit

 

But as glow said keep them even for online play.

[AX2]

Yes.

But it´s not clear.

 

There are 2 paths

 

1) Only Effects for all pilots :

If your plane was damaged and you get scared... and then you will breath faster ? ( Sound Effect )

If your plane was damaged and you get scared ... your vision  will be blured ? ( Motion Blur Effect )

 

2) Role play for each pilot:

 

 

 

are asking about individual effects?

 

 

 

Press some button X amount of time so my pilot sustained better G ?

 

???

Edited August 19, 2013 by Mustang

[=LD=Hethwill]

Voted yes. Makes all sense for online Career mode.

 

- hearing damped, black-outs, even full unconsciousness.

- bleeding over time.

- delay in reaction when wounded if code allows.

 

The heavy breathing is not needed but not against.

Edited August 19, 2013 by =LD=Hethwill

[AX2]

I deleted my vote... and go for  NOT

 

The AI always is a cheater. 

 

I don´t want more complications ... Sorry 

[leitmotiv]

Press some button X amount of time so my pilot sustained better G ?

 

 

???

 

like in PES when i wonted that my player run faster with ball, I had to press one button X amount of times and he would run faster, so in this case i press some button fast and i can pull more G, like with real pilots they squeeze muscles and keep blood high in head

 

i like blackouts

redouts

 

i saw in same poll on russian side it says 

"blackout, fatigue, etc.

(fatigue, its growth and influence)"

 

so i dont know what this fatigue means

 

if its some amount of stamina that all pilots in game have same amount, and you spend it by doing hard manovers, and when you spend it you cant move controls fast as before, untill its recharged, then its somthing new in sim wourld, would maybe like to see how it works, just if its fixed amount for all players like its with (G tolarances backauts, same for all pilots in game) not being able to incresed somehow

Edited August 19, 2013 by Yaklover

[=LD=Stache]

yes to physiological reactions but let them be the same for all pilots, no added bonuses.

 

 IMHO starting pilots will often have enough on their plate just learning the ropes of controlling the plane ,SA ect,ect....no need to give expert pilots another bonus by making their pilots "super"human also.

 

Intense combat with hard maneuvering should have an effect on the pilots after some time though .

 

Edited August 19, 2013 by LD-Stache

[4S_Nero]

yes.

[Matt]

Yes, as long as you can't level it and become "better" at sustaining G loads etc. (atleast not in MP). And nothing like pushing buttons, quick-time-events or anything please.

 

The German pilot model looks great.

[6S.Manu]

I think that is a great idea IF servers can keep it under their control; for example in a online campaign you could have a pilot with increased stamina since he did 5 mission without losing the plane.

 

Or if the AI react in the right way as the Russians they did with Hartmann: at the sight of the "Black Tulip" they didn't stay in the fight, so that Bubi had to change skin to increase it scoring.

 

But if you're think about something like WT and its levelling system, I'm against this idea: the server must have the full control on planes, single loadout and pilots "experience" too.

[OBT-Psycho]

Is this going to be like the "anthropomorphic" thingy that we all discover in the past and learned to uncheck? because I liked the idea and understood the principle, but in a practical point of view it was a failure. Especially as some joystick glitches were interpreted as continuous input and render half of the plane unusable most of the time.

 

so big yes for sound effect and other stuff like this but warning about this kind of anthropomorphic limitations

[Creepermoss]

I'm all for it, as long as it doesn't go the route of Arma 3's "asthma simulator" with the heavy breathing. Seriously, if you walk like 50m in Arma 3, your soldier starts wheezing like he's about to fall over, and while I get that running or carrying a heavy load would fatigue you, running 10-15m shouldn't make you sound like Darth Vader.

[Matze81]

I guess it’s good to have them, if only some are implemented and when they’re done conservatively (less is often more) with immersion as the main goal in mind.

But one can easily do without them, if they’re overdone and get in the way of the gameplay too much or too often.

 

We all use “realism” every now and then as a basis to support our arguments. But sometimes there should be compromises or even omissions to avoid frustration.

 

If you vote “it’s good to have them” you’re basically saying: “Whatever the physiological reaction might be, I’m happy to have it in the game.”

 

Physiological reactions are obviously not just the grey-, black- and red-outs. Some mentioned already fatigue. How might that be implemented? Does my Pilot Alter Ego grey- or black-out earlier after 10 minutes of high g maneuvering? Might be realistic but there’s high potential of frustration, if you’re jumped by a bandit just shortly after you had a few minutes of high g maneuvering against another opponent. Because even if the skills were somewhat equal, you would probably end up having your @$$ handed to you, because the fatigue gets in the way of your maneuvering. I’m not sure if most of us would be rooting for realism while going down in flames in that situation.

 

What other possibilities are there? Effects of cold temperatures for example. Temperatures were pretty low during the timeframe of the game I’d say and that might also have an effect on the physical condition of our Alter Ego. Slower reaction times, muscle fatigue etc. Could be also quite frustrating, if implemented, especially if you see the opponent coming but all movements are more sluggish and delayed, because the pilot is struggling with the cold.

 

Head movement could also be restricted or slowed down during high g maneuvering as a result of physiological constraints. So, no more quick head movement with TrackIR as long as there’s a certain amount of g-force present. The same goes for Oculus Rift of course! I can totally imagine lots of people shaking their heads back and forth because it feels like the tracking system is broken.

 

Realism is of course really important for a simulation. And physiological factors are indeed realistic, because they really were/are encountered in reality.

But going “as real as possible” on those physiological factors might not be as rewarding as it might seem initially.

 

I’m not against them per se. Not at all. But there’s just a bunch of them, that have a large potential to spoil the game (yes yes I know it’s a simulation) for me personally.

 

But hey, we’re all paying customers so everybody’s free to have his own opinion, no matter if you want everything Über-realistic or if you are happy to make compromises in favor of gameplay.

 

Anyways, I’m not suggesting that Zak’s post means that all of the things I mentioned above are meant to be in the game of course. All I’m saying is: Be careful what you wish for!

 

(Sorry for the text wall!)

[leitmotiv]

Realistic pilot behavior is also important to be simulated as realistic airplane behavior. The reson why airplanes behaves so diferant and better in game in some situations then in real life is because you have a robot as a pilot that you control like he has 3-4 hands and no limits on pain, fatigue, movment of head, stick forces and so on. 

 

So if its well done im for it, would just like to know what limitations on pilot Zak means only useal blackouts, redouts, wonds or somthing more, and how would they implement them.

 

You should fell limitations real pilots expirianced if you wont to be like them in game flying airplanes in "full real" settings, losing air fight because of this new futures would then show that real pilot would probably lost it for same reson in that situation being human not a robot. I look at it like having limited ammo, i can lose a fight because of lack of ammo (airplane limitation) after fighting with 2-3 enemys same as by losing stamina (pilot limitations) or having not so pilot frendly engine or airplane controls in cocpit.

 

Having options to turn it on or off in difficulties would be nice, 

Edited August 20, 2013 by Yaklover

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

I like the idea, more effects...but keep it even for online and the same level for everyone, that is a must, 100% no levels

 

For single player career mode i like the idea of my pilot improving over time, but dont make it too gimmicky or gamely...no health bars or levels.

[=LD=dhyran]

yes for red- and blackout, pilots wounds, bleeding etc. but please no different pilot behavior per player

[LLv34_Untamo]

S!

 

Need more info what these "pilot's physiological reactions" mean before I can answer. Are they something beyond what we had in old IL-2?

[Zak]

S!

 

Need more info what these "pilot's physiological reactions" mean before I can answer. Are they something beyond what we had in old IL-2?

For instance, a pilot may suffer a decrease of field of vision after a long and intense combat with high-G and high tension in general. It's related to blood pressure somehow. So what he starts to see is some sort of a vignette that basically means that he's no longer able to see things as good as a rested pilot.

On the MAKS airshow that will start here in Moscow in the end of this month we'll ask our comrade test pilot, Vlad Barsuk to describe that state of vision after maneuvering MiG-3. Then I might be able to give a better description of these physiological reactions.

[ITAF_Lynx11]

Guy's I don't think is a good idea, every pilot react in a different way, you can not simulate it...

 

What I would like to see from BoS is a combat sim not a "game" neither a "human physiological sim"(like Sims).

 

Blackouts or Redouts due to sustained G's is something different, they need to be present since it is a problem of every pilot due to fluid dynamics (the blood weighs), but concentration, nervousness, stress, tension, should be delegated to the player, that is a real human (maybe ), not to the game...

 

Decrease in FoV after high G maneuvering is very subjective and and lasts  for few seconds, a gym trained pilot with good  aerobic and anaerobic training can react to this easily.

 

Please think about it before adding this feature or at least give the option to select it or not in server settings... 

 

Ciao!!

 

P.S.: Real military combat simulators do not simulate physical reactions... 

[MACADEMIC]

Guy's I don't think is a good idea, every pilot react in a different way, you can not simulate it...

 

What I would like to see from BoS is a combat sim not a "game" neither a "human physiological sim"(like Sims).

 

Blackouts or Redouts due to sustained G's is something different, they need to be present since it is a problem of every pilot due to fluid dynamics (the blood weighs), but concentration, nervousness, stress, tension, should be delegated to the player, that is a real human (maybe ), not to the game...

 

Decrease in FoV after high G maneuvering is very subjective and and lasts  for few seconds, a gym trained pilot with good  aerobic and anaerobic training can react to this easily.

 

Please think about it before adding this feature or at least give the option to select it or not in server settings... 

 

Ciao!!

 

P.S.: Real military combat simulators do not simulate physical reactions... 

 

Very good points Lynx, really agree.

 

A big part of success in combat simulations is the ability of 'keeping it together', i.e. maintain situational awareness and control of the airplane. If the simulation is good, it will be stressful enough, no need to simulate this!

 

 

MAC

[Yellowsub]

Only if the AI suffers from the same limitations.

[Volkoff]

For instance, a pilot may suffer a decrease of field of vision after a long and intense combat with high-G and high tension in general. It's related to blood pressure somehow. So what he starts to see is some sort of a vignette that basically means that he's no longer able to see things as good as a rested pilot.

On the MAKS airshow that will start here in Moscow in the end of this month we'll ask our comrade test pilot, Vlad Barsuk to describe that state of vision after maneuvering MiG-3. Then I might be able to give a better description of these physiological reactions.

 

 I would certainly be interested in seeing Tunnel Vision and other similar features, in game, Zak. Whatever the team comes up with, I am sure will be great. It will be interesting to hear what Vlad Barsuk has to say about Tunnel Vision.   MJ

Edited August 21, 2013 by =69.GIAP=MIKHA

[Matze81]

For instance, a pilot may suffer a decrease of field of vision after a long and intense combat with high-G and high tension in general. It's related to blood pressure somehow. So what he starts to see is some sort of a vignette that basically means that he's no longer able to see things as good as a rested pilot.

On the MAKS airshow that will start here in Moscow in the end of this month we'll ask our comrade test pilot, Vlad Barsuk to describe that state of vision after maneuvering MiG-3. Then I might be able to give a better description of these physiological reactions.

 

I don't know Zak. That kind of stuff may look good as a visual effect, but might throw off guys with actual high g flying experience. Lynx11 had some valid points I thought. On top of that to me, it's mostly about perception again.

 

Maybe it's a medical fact that the vision is somehow impaired after a certain time of tension and/or high g maneuvering, but the thing is nobody takes an eye-exam a minute after BFM, Aerobatics or whatever, where this might actually show.

Pilots usually wouldn't notice it, because after the fight or aerobatic profile is over, they still have to focus on so many other things like inflight checks, navigation, communication etc. So unless the impairment is quite substantial, it would go unnoticed.

 

I'd say, if such a visual game effect is not implemented in a really subtle way, it might look and feel awkward and out of place for some people.

 

When you ask Vlad Barsuk, could you maybe ask him WITHOUT briefing him on it before the flight? Because if he knows in advance, his perception may be altered, because he focuses on something that normally goes unnoticed.

 

But anyways, if he confirms the impaired vision after flying his high g profile, then by all means go with his suggestion. After all he's a well known expert to you guys and I'm just some forum user, who's background is unknown to you.

 

As always, just my two cents. No reason to get mad or anything!

[4S_Nero]

Guy's I don't think is a good idea, every pilot react in a different way, you can not simulate it...

 

What I would like to see from BoS is a combat sim not a "game" neither a "human physiological sim"(like Sims).

 

Blackouts or Redouts due to sustained G's is something different, they need to be present since it is a problem of every pilot due to fluid dynamics (the blood weighs), but concentration, nervousness, stress, tension, should be delegated to the player, that is a real human (maybe ), not to the game...

 

Decrease in FoV after high G maneuvering is very subjective and and lasts  for few seconds, a gym trained pilot with good  aerobic and anaerobic training can react to this easily.

 

Please think about it before adding this feature or at least give the option to select it or not in server settings... 

 

Ciao!!

 

P.S.: Real military combat simulators do not simulate physical reactions... 

 

I delete my vote (yes). Zak take into great consideration the words of Linx, is very familiar with his work, great passion.

Edited August 22, 2013 by 4SNero

[MACADEMIC]

Zak,

 

I'm sorry but I really don't think the poll here is representative because the question you asked is way too ambiguous. I seriously doubt anyone interested in BoS would like to see something like WT has, where you can 'train' (i.e. pay for) your pilot to become more G-tolerant and have more stamina, etc.

 

MAC

[LLv34_Untamo]

For instance, a pilot may suffer a decrease of field of vision after a long and intense combat with high-G and high tension in general. It's related to blood pressure somehow. So what he starts to see is some sort of a vignette that basically means that he's no longer able to see things as good as a rested pilot.

On the MAKS airshow that will start here in Moscow in the end of this month we'll ask our comrade test pilot, Vlad Barsuk to describe that state of vision after maneuvering MiG-3. Then I might be able to give a better description of these physiological reactions.

 

Okay, that sounds like basic G induced black/red-out starting from the sides(up/down also) of the image, this is how it is done in some other sims as well. AH2 comes to mind.

 

I think it's good to have them, as pilots WWII didn't have any G-suits or training (that I know off) to battle G-effects.

Edited August 22, 2013 by LLv34_Untamo

[=LD=Hethwill]

Zak,

 

I'm sorry but I really don't think the poll here is representative because the question you asked is way too ambiguous. I seriously doubt anyone interested in BoS would like to see something like WT has, where you can 'train' (i.e. pay for) your pilot to become more G-tolerant and have more stamina, etc.

 

MAC

 

That would be horrible and I don't think anyone would want that. RoF has it in good measure regarding the era, lifting planes, slow speed. BoS has to keep it level with that and bring it to an actual WW2 setting. That is all.

[6S.Manu]

Okay, that sounds like basic G induced black/red-out starting from the sides(up/down also) of the image, this is how it is done in some other sims as well. AH2 comes to mind.

 

I think it's good to have them, as pilots WWII didn't have any G-suits or training (that I know off) to battle G-effects.

 

Still we need to simulate the different posture of the pilot because of the cockpit design, and US pilots did have anti-G force suits.

 

http://heritageflightgeardisplays.wordpress.com/2010/03/27/anti-g-suits-in-ww2-usaaf-service/

[6S.Manu]

Anyway, talking about "every pilot reacts in a different way": can we just have an average pilot's reaction?

 

Even if a guy can be better than another, it does not mean that ignoring the effect is the right thing to do.

 

Stil I agree that many psychological reactions are already reproduced by the player himself. We should focus on the ones who are not simulated.

[steppenwolf]

The more new stuff suggesting 'feeling' the better!

Edited August 23, 2013 by steppenwolf

[MACADEMIC]

The more new stuff suggesting 'feeling' the better!

 

Wonderful. Then how about your vision becoming blurry because sweat starts dripping into your eyes? It's very likely to happen in real life, either in a hot cockpit or in the heat of battle. But do you want this to happen on your screen? Don't think so.

 

MAC

[steppenwolf]

Wonderful. Then how about your vision becoming blurry because sweat starts dripping into your eyes? It's very likely to happen in real life, either in a hot cockpit or in the heat of battle. But do you want this to happen on your screen? Don't think so.

 

MAC

Hi Mac. I think you're exaggerating a bit, but some of us do want a new experience in the hobby - it's kinda been the same thing for years.  

[MACADEMIC]

Hi Mac. I think you're exaggerating a bit, but some of us do want a new experience in the hobby - it's kinda been the same thing for years.  

 

More effects do not necessarly translate into more realism or immersion, quite often the opposite is true. And in my experience, new is not always better.

 

MAC

[Tektolnes]

Personally I think that blackouts, redouts and head movement due to g forces is enough once they're modelled to the realistic levels of their time. Other physiological reactions aren't all that necessary and tend to vary wildly across pilots in real life. Also please try to get the approach to blackout better than how it was modelled in CloD. DCS P51D with the narrowing cone of vision has it done nicely which ties in with ww2 pilot interviews describing the effect.

[leitmotiv]

I relay wont to see what will their pilot have to say to this.

Dont know when blackouts were first introduced in air games but probably people also didnt like it as it simulates pilot limits not airplane, and now its comon thing in games.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Yaklover