Tactics

[Feathered_IV]

I'll see your boobies and raise you a pair of great tits

 

 

 

Tremendous!  I'll see your great tits and raise a large cock.

 

[Elem]

[Feathered_IV]

I raised it by hand.

[Wulf]

I raised it by hand.

 

 

Yes, we'd already assumed that .......

[=WH=PangolinWranglin]

I feel like this belongs here. 

[curiousGamblerr]

I feel like this belongs here. 

 

Ahh a true classic

[Lusekofte]

As a CRANE operator I take offence that cranes in general should be used to derail a topic.

 

 

But dropping the flaps and wheels has been known to be used in desperate attempts of slowing down a aircraft. But it is not a good plan, or strategy making yourself dead in water close to enemy. USN Corsairs used undercarriage as dive brakes at times. 

But lowering flaps at high speed is not possible for many planes, and if it is possible it will sky rocket the plane upwards no matter how fast you push the stick forward. Flaps let you have a slower stall speed.

Stop misusing cranes or I wake up my buddy over here

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[[CPT]milopugdog]

As a CRANE operator I take offence that cranes in general should be used to derail a topic.

 

 

But dropping the flaps and wheels has been known to be used in desperate attempts of slowing down a aircraft. But it is not a good plan, or strategy making yourself dead in water close to enemy. USN Corsairs used undercarriage as dive brakes at times. 

But lowering flaps at high speed is not possible for many planes, and if it is possible it will sky rocket the plane upwards no matter how fast you push the stick forward. Flaps let you have a slower stall speed.

Stop misusing cranes or I wake up my buddy over here

 

You've got to know that we're specifically talking about Russian cranes, mate.

Kinda like the example below:

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

More Facts:

1. Allied Fighters could bounce .50 cals and kill Tigers with that
2. Jet Steel can't fuel Melt Beams
3. Hitler faked Suicide, he was actually Out-Turned by a Mustang
4. Germany started loosing the War after American Infantry first Set Foot on European Soil on D-Day
5. The Bren was better than the Spandau
6. P-47 with Paddle Blade Prop could outclimb 109s

[Scojo]

I feel like this belongs here. 

was this based on a true story?

 

I didn't realize the Mustang needed so much runway and had such a slow takeoff speed. How did it ever escort B-17s?

[MAJ_stug41]

I heard a rumour that some pilots would extend their landing gear in order to use them to flip over Tiger tanks and feed on their soft underbelly.

You wouldnt happened to have played wwiiol years ago, would you?

[BlitzPig_EL]

 

More Facts:

1. Germany started loosing the War after American Infantry first Set Foot on European Soil on D-Day

 

Actually the Axis powers lost the war before they started it.  They never had a hope of winning a protracted war against the combined military and industrial power of the British Empire, the Soviet Union, and the United States. 

 

Their arrogance and total belief in their political and racist dogma obscured their view of reality, thinking that the Allies were weak potato farmers and shop keepers, so they played their hand, and lost...  badly.

[Finkeren]

Blitz: You are aware, that Klaus was being massively sacastic there?

 

Ah sarcasm, my second favourite kind of -asm.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Blitz: You are aware, that Klaus was being massively sacastic there?

 

Ah sarcasm, my second favourite kind of -asm.

You see, the Americans don't detect the Sarcasm in my Facts because many of them actually believe them. That's what Heavy Metals in your Tap Water and American History Channel "Documentaries" do to your Brain. 

Edited February 28, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Aap]

Actually the Axis powers lost the war before they started it.  They never had a hope of winning a protracted war against the combined military and industrial power of the British Empire, the Soviet Union, and the United States. 

 

Klaus was obviously just sarcastic, but just to point out something, Axis did not start a war against the combined military and industrial power of the British Empire, the Soviet Union and the United States. Germany started the war, together with previously mentioned Soviet Union, against Poland - and it's allies France and Britain declared war on Germany in response. USA was neutral at that point. Obviously Hitler miscalculated things, but it was not like he just declared war against all the powerful countries one day.

Edited February 28, 2017 by II./JG77_Kemp

[GrendelsDad]

What would have been the outcome of the war if Germany had never invaded Russia. I often ponder this scenario.

[Blooddawn1942]

It is without a doubt well known that Germany and Japan were totally aware, that they could not win a war against USA, GB and the USSR in the long run. It was obvious due to the lack of resources. They knew it very well and the German army has learned its lessons in the trenches of the first World War.

So it was all about 'make it or break it'. Blitzkrieg... Shock and Awe.

And I tend to see the second World War not as a single event. It clearly unfolded out of several regional inner-european conflicts. With the German invasion of the SU and the declaration of war against the USA in 1941 it became, what we refer these days to a full scale World War.

What would have been the outcome of the war if Germany had never invaded Russia. I often ponder this scenario.

I'm sure that in this case, comrade Stalin would have celebrated Christmas 1941 in Bordeaux or Lissabon. Edited February 28, 2017 by Blooddawn1942

[Scojo]

Blitz: You are aware, that Klaus was being massively sacastic there?

 

Ah sarcasm, my second favourite kind of -asm.

Are you implying there's no such thing as Jet Steel and Melt beams!?

“It never seems to work out invading Russia.”

[Finkeren]

“It never seems to work out invading Russia.”

Well, a certain mr. Temüjin had some success doing that.

 

But then again, he had just defeated China and the Persian Empire (Kwaresm?) so he was kinda on a roll.

[curiousGamblerr]

You see, the Americans don't detect the Sarcasm in my Facts because many of them actually believe them. That's what Heavy Metals in your Tap Water and American History Channel "Documentaries" do to your Brain.

Woah woah woah, heavy metals aside, don't lump us all together like that! =P my sarcasm detector is well honed through endless sarcasm of my own!

 

I like the Facts in this thread. Good Facts.

Edited February 28, 2017 by 19//curiousGamblerr

[BlitzPig_EL]

I admit, my German sarcasm detector is not well calibrated, as we only have one German in the BlitzPigs.

 

Now my British sarcasm detector is far more finely tuned as we have several members from the Scepter'd Isle.

[Scojo]

It's good to know that Americans aren't the only ones still suffering from extreme stereotyping

[BlitzPig_EL]

Stereotyping is a human condition, it knows no borders.

[Wulf]

Actually the Axis powers lost the war before they started it.  They never had a hope of winning a protracted war against the combined military and industrial power of the British Empire, the Soviet Union, and the United States. 

 

Their arrogance and total belief in their political and racist dogma obscured their view of reality, thinking that the Allies were weak potato farmers and shop keepers, so they played their hand, and lost...  badly.

 

 

Have you read any books about the War?

 

If the Germans had succeeded at Stalingrad, i.e. if  Paulus had acted in a timely fashion, as required, remembering that the Soviets weren't renowned for their ability to more resources quickly, (whereas the Germans were) Hitler probably would have won the War in the East.    If, by taking Stalingrad, Hitler had managed to choke-off the resources Stalin required to continue the War, there is simply no knowing how things would have turned out.  

[Feathered_IV]

I admit, my German sarcasm detector is not well calibrated, as we only have one German in the BlitzPigs.

 

Now my British sarcasm detector is far more finely tuned as we have several members from the Scepter'd Isle.

My German humour detector isn't very well calibrated. We have German humour in this country too, but we don't call it that. Over here it's called cynicism.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Wulf, the Germans did not have the logistics infrastructure to carry on a protracted war, hell, Great Britain alone was out producing the German aircraft industry as early as the middle of 1940.  The Germans didn't put their economy on a war footing until 1943, they had no navy to speak of, very few indigenous natural resources other than coal.  Their armies in Russia were at the far end of a teetering supply chain that could not even keep them in warm clothes, much less supply them with enough fuel and ammunition.

 

The Russians had thousands of miles of territory they could fall back on if need be thus further stretching the German logistics chain.  And the Russians would never have capitulated, just as the Brits wouldn't have, and it was only a matter of time till the US came in, and then it's lights out for the brilliantly led tactical army that was never designed to fight a defensive war.

 

The same was true of Imperial Japan, only they were much further behind in manufacturing capability, and general war fighting doctrine, and were even more constrained by their religious/nationalistic dogma.

 

And both the Germans and the Japanese utterly miscalculated the reaction of their opponents.  They though we were weak willed and didn't have the stomach for it.  They were wrong. 

 

You can lay out all the "what ifs" you want, but the Axis powers never had a chance of winning.

[CUJO_1970]

Klaus Mietusch - I remember that guy - 452 real actual combat missions, 25 years old before he went in.

 

We can't even do that sitting at a freaking desk.

[CUJO_1970]

During operation Cerberus/Operation Donnerkeil  (The Channel Dash) it is reported that 109's and 190's dropped wheels and flaps in an attempt to slow down and deal with Swordfish torpedo bombers which they were repeatedly overshooting, apparently they were a harder target than expected, however they were all shot down and those that were able to launch their torpedoes missed the targets

 

Cheers Dkpilot

 

Eugene Esmonde - RIP

 

[Wulf]

You need fuel and materiel in order to win a modern mechanized war.   If Paulus had done his job and taken Stalingrad, it would have been extremely difficult for the Soviets to bounce back without access to oil, food production, or warm water ports to plug the supply gaps through lend-lease. 

 

Stalin was a pragmatist.  He was already looking for a possible accommodation with the Nazi state in 1942.  At the time he was informed there wasn't a deal to be made.

 

If things had turned out differently at Stalingrad and Hitler ended up with all the natural and human resources of both Europe and the Soviet Union, it seems entirely likely that British and American enthusiasm for a protracted 'bloody' war between equals would have diminished significantly.  Hitler may have been 'a bit of a bad egg' but he certainly understood the economics of warfare.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Wulf

[Finkeren]

Wulf: Stalingrad was not the final goal of the German 1942 offensive. The oil fields at Baku were. Even if the Germans had taken Stalingrad, they still had 1000km to go to reach Baku and at least 500km to effectively cut the Caucasus off from the rest of the USSR.

 

Even as they neared Stalingrad, the 6th Army was already wearing thin and its supply lines were strained. It's very doubtful, that they could have completed their objectives.

 

Stressing the strategic importance of Stalingrad itself became a popular propaganda tool for both sides once they committed to a pitched battle in the city, but the fact is, that the city represented very little value for the Germans and it was by no means a desperate "last stand" for the Red Army (for the soldiers in the city it was, but for Stavka it was mainly a good place to halt the German advance)

 

Had Stalingrad fallen, it would no doubt have changed the course of the war but not its outcome. It would have dragged out the end game for sure (now the Red Army would have had to cross back over one more large river) but in the end, there would have been no reprieve for the Germans.

 

Germany essentially lost the war, when Barbarossa failed. Even members of the OKW admitted, that the war had become unwinnable, when they were pushed back from Moscow in late 1941 and it was clear, that the Soviet Union was not going to collapse.

[Aap]

If Paulus had done his job and taken Stalingrad

 

Probably Hitler also blamed Paulus for "not doing his job", but reality was that Hitler himself ruined the possibilities in the south, just like he had ruined the attack on Moscow. In autumn 1941 Hitler halted the attack on Moscow to send part of the Army Group Centre to help taking Kiev, which Guderian and von Bock strongly opposed. Then it turned out just as the generals had warned, Germany had lost the momentum towards Moscow, Soviets got enough reinforcements and early winter to help them and Germany could not take Moscow. Hitler then also blamed and sacked Guderian, von Bock and several other generals, the masterminds behind German early war successes, despite having personally caused the defeat.

 

In Stalingrad, the original plan was to keep part of the Army Group South in defensive positions to cover sides and flanks, while the main focus was going to take the Caucasian oil fields. Alternative plan could have been going with force to Stalingrad to cut out the Volga supply route, but not getting the resources either. So what did Hitler do? Changed the original plan and decided that Paulus army go on offensive towards Stalingrad with insufficient forces, while List army goes for the oil fields. That created huge logistical problems, while also leaving capt between the army groups that could be exploited by the soviets. To make things worse, Hitler decided to send 4th Panzer Army in the middle of the operation from Paulus to List. It caused even bigger logistical problems and was not needed as it actually made things worse and slowed down the advance in mountains, while leaving Paulus with even less resources during critical offensive phase. When Paulus insufficient forces were inevitably stopped later on and soviets used the previously mentioned gap to flank Paulus army, Hitler personally forbid organized withdrawal to defensive positions so that they ended up surrounded and eventually surrendered. Convenient to blame Paulus for that, of course.

 

But in the big picture, by that time Germany was in war already against all the big powers - USA, Britain, Soviet Union - so was going to lose the war at the end anyway.

Edited March 1, 2017 by II./JG77_Kemp

[Wulf]

If you control Stalingrad you control the most significant arteries from the Caspian including oil from Baku and the lend-lease supply line via Iran.  Remembering that by 1942 the Black Sea was already essentially sealed off.  What other warm water ports did the Soviets have?

 

The Battle of Stalingrad is typically dismissed as an act of egotism.  In fact it was vital to both Soviet and Nazi war aims. 

 

Kemp, Hitler was correct to divert resources away from Moscow.  Strategically, the City was of very little value.  If you wanted to knock the Soviets out of the war you had to pinch-off Baku and the Allied supply lines.  Paulus (a staff officer) was indecisive (a ditherer) and essentially lost Hitler the War.  In the process he saved himself of course and condemned his own army to annihilation.  Paulus discovered in captivity that he was a communist.   How convenient,  but an option not available to his men.  He lived and they died.  He should have put a gun in his mouth.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Wulf

[Wulf]

Oh my god.

 

Actually, no. I'm not that surprised.

 

 

Hahahahaha ...seriously, I almost fell out of my chair when I read that.

[Lusekofte]

What would have been the outcome of the war if Germany had never invaded Russia. I often ponder this scenario.

 

Stalin did not trust Hitler, Hitler did not trust Stalin. Eventualy they would have gotten to fight, but Stalin would have been more ready. But what if th eGermans behaved like the saviours the Ucranian and Belarus thought they where. That would have meant a big chunk of USSR held without partisans and a huge amount of soldiers and resources. 

 

@Wulf

 

So you mean that repeating the history will make the Germans win the Battle of Stalingrad? Did you not learn that the Russians fought bitterly for every small village and house. The huge winning in the start was due to surrounding the Russians not because of defeatism.

Bottom line was, Germany did not have the human, economical and resources to take USSR . They had not enough troops, planes Trains trucks tanks artillery , and with more of that they would have ended double of non fighting logistical human resources. 

To keep a soldier fighting in this huge continent you needed one man in logistics 

Edited March 1, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Aap]

Kemp, Hitler was correct to divert resources away from Moscow.  Strategically, the City was of very little value.

 

That is as far from reality as possible. Have you looked at the map of Russia? Open up google maps and take a look. If in ancient times "all roads lead to Rome", then in Russia it is the same with Moscow. So if you understand the logistical importance of Volga river, you should also understand the importance of holding the overwhelmingly most important logistical hub in Russia. Add to that all the factories that produced military goods and all the other infrastructure and you should realize that Moscow was by far the most important target.

 

If you wanted to knock the Soviets out of the war you had to pinch-off Baku and the Allied supply lines.

 

Like I said, Hitler messed that up personally. Original plan was to go directly and forcefully to the oil fields, Hitler changed the plan to have two weaker simultanous offensives with huge logistical problems, so that both objectives failed. 

 

Paulus (a staff officer) was indecisive (a ditherer) and essentially lost Hitler the War.

 

What was there for Paulus to decide? It was Hitler's orders to attack with insufficient resources. It was Hitler's orders to stay in the city, when it became apparent that they would end up in pocket there. Indeed, Paulus should have disobeyed these orders, as Guderian did under Moscow, to save the army, but there was nothing he could do to actually win the battle there. That possibility was already ruined by the corporal in charge of the Reich.

 

He should have put a gun in his mouth.

 

It would have changed nothing for the men that fell into captivity, as this was Hitler's decision. Now, if Hitler had put a gun in his mouth on time, it would have saved millions of German and other lives.

Edited March 1, 2017 by II./JG77_Kemp

[Wulf]

Stalin did not trust Hitler, Hitler did not trust Stalin. Eventualy they would have gotten to fight, but Stalin would have been more ready. But what if th eGermans behaved like the saviours the Ucranian and Belarus thought they where. That would have meant a big chunk of USSR held without partisans and a huge amount of soldiers and resources. 

 

@Wulf

 

So you mean that repeating the history will make the Germans win the Battle of Stalingrad? Did you not learn that the Russians fought bitterly for every small village and house. The huge winning in the start was due to surrounding the Russians not because of defeatism.

Bottom line was, Germany did not have the human, economical and resources to take USSR . They had not enough troops, planes Trains trucks tanks artillery , and with more of that they would have ended double of non fighting logistical human resources. 

To keep a soldier fighting in this huge continent you needed one man in logistics 

 

 

So ... lend lease was an unnecessary waste of time then?  The food, the trucks (240,000 of them) the aircraft etc, etc, blah, blah.

 

And the female Soviet soldiers.  You think they employed women in combat because what;  they didn't want them to feel left out??

 

Jayzuz...

[Dakpilot]

So ... lend lease was an unnecessary waste of time then?  The food, the trucks (240,000 of them) the aircraft etc, etc, blah, blah.

 

And the female Soviet soldiers.  You think they employed women in combat because what;  they didn't want them to feel left out??

 

Jayzuz...

 

There are loads of sites to debate the sort of revisionist history/ideology that you seem to like, just as there are sites for pro Stalinism and extreme left wing supporters

 

perhaps you would be better off debating there, at least you will be on topic and not derailing multiple threads

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Wulf]

That is as far from reality as possible. Have you looked at the map of Russia? Open up google maps and take a look. If in ancient times "all roads lead to Rome", then in Russia it is the same with Moscow. So if you understand the logistical importance of Volga river, you should also understand the importance of holding the overwhelmingly most important logistical hub in Russia. Add to that all the factories that produced military goods and all the other infrastructure and you should realize that Moscow was by far the most important target.

 

 

Like I said, Hitler messed that up personally. Original plan was to go directly and forcefully to the oil fields, Hitler changed the plan to have two weaker simultanous offensives with huge logistical problems, so that both objectives failed. 

 

 

What was there for Paulus to decide? It was Hitler's orders to attack with insufficient resources. It was Hitler's orders to stay in the city, when it became apparent that they would end up in pocket there. Indeed, Paulus should have disobeyed these orders, as Guderian did under Moscow, to save the army, but there was nothing he could do to actually win the battle there. That possibility was already ruined by the corporal in charge of the Reich.

 

 

It would have changed nothing for the men that fell into captivity, as this was Hitler's decision. Now, if Hitler had put a gun in his mouth on time, it would have saved millions of German and other lives.

 

 

Napoleon captured Moscow.  It did nothing for his campaign.  Also, Moscow wasn't a critical industrial zone for the Soviets in the early 40s.

 

If Paulus felt his orders couldn't be executed, as you seem to suggest, he should have told Hitler so and resigned.  He didn't do that though did he.  What he did do was squander one of the great strengths of the German Army at the time, it's ability to rapidly switch resources and wrong-foot it's adversaries.  Instead he dithered and allowed the Soviets time to organize their defense.  And your right, Paulus should have stuck it out in the City or got his men out but in the end he did neither.  He handed his men over to the Soviets (who killed all but a few of them) while Paulus went into comfortable retirement working for the Soviets.  That is despicable behaviour.

 

And yes, if Hitler had shot himself it would have saved lives but that's another story isn't it.

[Feathered_IV]

Hitler may have been 'a bit of a bad egg'

 

 

Crikey, don't hold back man!

[Aap]

 

 

Napoleon captured Moscow.  It did nothing for his campaign.

 

And it would have done even less, if Napoloen had captured Baku. These were different times and different types of warfare and discussion of causes and effects of Napoleonic wars could also be interesting, but let's try to stay on WWII for now. Also, I did not say that Soviet Union would capitulate, if they lost Moscow. I said it was the most important target. Are you trying to say that if Soviet Union had lost Stalingrad, they would have capitulated?

 

 

 

If Paulus felt his orders couldn't be executed, as you seem to suggest, he should have told Hitler so and resigned.

 

You think military works like that? If your superior officer (or Commander-in-Chief) gives you an order and you feel that it is not a good order, then you can just resign? 

Lieutenant: "Attack that hill!"

Private: "Nah, I resign."

 

 

 

And your right, Paulus should have stuck it out in the City or got his men out but in the end he did neither.

 

That is what he did. Obeyed insane orders and stuck it out in the city. But if his army has no supplies, no food, no hope, no nothing, then he should just watched as they die in hunger like flies? Man, you would have been a great adjutant to the great corporal.