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I know a military pilot who has pulled 7+ sustained g turns and more.  He describes neck pain and the possibility of permanent injury as a fact of his job.

 

All I'm asking for is accurate physics.  No charades or gimmicks. 

 

Basically close to 90% of the modern fighter pilots end up with some form of neck injuries/disk prolapses during their career.

90%. Foreces are extraordinary and the human body is just not built to sustained high G loading.

 

And asking for "accurate physics" is understandable to a certain extent, but you have to keep some kind of touch to the reality.

Seems many people dont understand that you have X amount of budget, Z amount of time, Y amount of processing power and O amount

of yield when it comes to...well..not only games design but everything in life.

 

Some people seem to live under the misconception that the dev team has the resources of Bahrain but for shits and giggles decide to

not to implement some factors that might (or might not) add to the immersion of the game. I personally feel that the resources is better

spent on honing other things like single player campaign or whatnot. Not adding relatively obscure gimmics.

 

 

And about the seeing part. Yes, the human body is exceptional of filtering out jarring & bumping in real life. It is actually extraordinary

how our race has adapted and accustomed. It is not only the eyeballs itself that has a fabulous "image stabilizer" via the muscles but

also the preprocessing that the retina does, let alone the optical cortex that process the information. But it is not infallible, it has it limits

and trying to reproduce it realistically in the computer games...at the present...is far fetched. Low yield, if I might say.

 

The anecdotes like "riding mountain bikes in rock garden" are a bit off as well, the human physhiology comes to play.

When, say riding downhill with skis or with mtb, you are floating on several levels of suspension : skis/bike suspension, legs,

midbody, neck. Most of the time we can feel and see relatively stable when going into a rock garden with a plush 7" travel Specialized

or hitting a pile of frozen avy debris...but, when you do that going mach schnell things go south. You just cant see properly.

It is basically that seconds ago you had been watching a 4k display and suddenly you are watching some blurry 200p.

 

Same thing like driving a poorly suspensioned car into a long strip of gravel road that is on dashboard...for a half a second you can

see then it is all "hold on tight"..

And there is the thing. When you strap down and you have your ass down to the seat, you basically lose ALL the bodys natural

suspension mechanisms. Done. Nada. Finit. You dont have anything there giving up except your disks in your spinal cord.

 

Basically, your resolution goes down. You lose separation and details. Things disappear.

Same thing has happened in the field of aviation several times when pilots have experienced severe turbulence/flutter, they

have been unable to discern any small details out of the window, let alone read the instruments.

 

 

 

Dont get me wrong, it would be nice to have some realistic effects when pulling high Gs or hitting the wake turbulence but

at what cost? We wouldnt get a single player campaign? only 2 planes to fly?

And for what? Just to get that geezer in a 4000€ rig to disable all the gfx effects to get a headway in multiplayer...

 

No thanks.

 

 

My 0.02€

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Basically close to 90% of the modern fighter pilots end up with some form of neck injuries/disk prolapses during their career.

90%. Foreces are extraordinary and the human body is just not built to sustained high G loading.

 

And asking for "accurate physics" is understandable to a certain extent, but you have to keep some kind of touch to the reality.

Seems many people dont understand that you have X amount of budget, Z amount of time, Y amount of processing power and O amount

of yield when it comes to...well..not only games design but everything in life.

 

Some people seem to live under the misconception that the dev team has the resources of Bahrain but for shits and giggles decide to

not to implement some factors that might (or might not) add to the immersion of the game. I personally feel that the resources is better

spent on honing other things like single player campaign or whatnot. Not adding relatively obscure gimmics.

 

 

And about the seeing part. Yes, the human body is exceptional of filtering out jarring & bumping in real life. It is actually extraordinary

how our race has adapted and accustomed. It is not only the eyeballs itself that has a fabulous "image stabilizer" via the muscles but

also the preprocessing that the retina does, let alone the optical cortex that process the information. But it is not infallible, it has it limits

and trying to reproduce it realistically in the computer games...at the present...is far fetched. Low yield, if I might say.

 

The anecdotes like "riding mountain bikes in rock garden" are a bit off as well, the human physhiology comes to play.

When, say riding downhill with skis or with mtb, you are floating on several levels of suspension : skis/bike suspension, legs,

midbody, neck. Most of the time we can feel and see relatively stable when going into a rock garden with a plush 7" travel Specialized

or hitting a pile of frozen avy debris...but, when you do that going mach schnell things go south. You just cant see properly.

It is basically that seconds ago you had been watching a 4k display and suddenly you are watching some blurry 200p.

 

Same thing like driving a poorly suspensioned car into a long strip of gravel road that is on dashboard...for a half a second you can

see then it is all "hold on tight"..

And there is the thing. When you strap down and you have your ass down to the seat, you basically lose ALL the bodys natural

suspension mechanisms. Done. Nada. Finit. You dont have anything there giving up except your disks in your spinal cord.

 

Basically, your resolution goes down. You lose separation and details. Things disappear.

Same thing has happened in the field of aviation several times when pilots have experienced severe turbulence/flutter, they

have been unable to discern any small details out of the window, let alone read the instruments.

 

 

 

Dont get me wrong, it would be nice to have some realistic effects when pulling high Gs or hitting the wake turbulence but

at what cost? We wouldnt get a single player campaign? only 2 planes to fly?

And for what? Just to get that geezer in a 4000€ rig to disable all the gfx effects to get a headway in multiplayer...

 

No thanks.

 

 

My 0.02€

90% ? Sources please. If we are talking simple muscle strain, then yes. Otherwise this percentage seems awfully high and not consistent with a quick search of online documentation.

 

I do agree with most of your other points.

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I don't remember particular stats, but yes, "fighter pilot neck" is a real worry! Damage to the cervical spine and disks is likely to occur if caution is not used during flight at elevated G's. Turning your head while pulling high g's can cause physical contact that would not normally happen, as well as increase the friction between the disks and vertebrae. 

 

While in a close quarters dogfight you sometimes have no choice about where and when you turn your head, but during non-combat maneuvering and/or aerobatic maneuvering I, and many others, advocate for keeping the head perfectly still during the high g periods of the maneuver. For example, good practice dictates using only your eyes to look up while not moving your head during the first 60 degrees of pitch to a vertical upline, as would happen initiating a loop or hammerhead etc. This helps the competition pilot to detect any yaw or roll corrections required during the pull as they strive to draw that perfect line, as well as reducing the damage that may happen from turning your head earlier, when the g loads are highest.

You can also differentiate "good form" from "bad form" under g by how the pilot handles the horizon...do they try to level the horizon by rolling their head opposite the angle of bank, or do they keep their head and neck perfectly vertical? Leveling the horizon while under g not only reduces the precision of aircraft control, but it increases damaging stress on your neck and spine. 

Edited by TX-EcoDragon
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90% ? Sources please. If we are talking simple muscle strain, then yes. Otherwise this percentage seems awfully high and not consistent with a quick search of online documentation.

 

I do agree with most of your other points.

 

Someone did a study on/with the Finnish air force few years ago. From the top of my head I remember something like "90% of the pilots (have/had) experienced problems in their xxx during their carreer. Cant remember if it was referring to only neck wear/injuries or back issues.

I really should not quote anything in forums like this without having all the data split,translated and had peer reviewed in six different universities... :D

 

 

Will try to find more info..

 

 

Edit : Harri Rintala did his doctorate on this topic few years ago. I think he has worked with FiAF for years.

Dont know if his stuff is translated though.

Edited by Wind
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