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BigPickle

Counter The Fw190 Threat

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The real fact is this: Everybody who is  praising a plane simply because it his favorite ,he is  going to get shot down , no matter how good is his plane, because he is SILLY, if he is too SILLY to admit that his favourite plane was not better than X or Y plane, it is too SILLY to handle it, end of story  :biggrin:  :P

 

*PS: I love laGG 3 and Fw 190, but the LaGG its the most imperfect plane, but I love that perfect imperfection

Edited by Manu_vc

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FW190 is the best soley because of visibility from the cockpit. Situational awareness is 9/10 of your air combat ability. 

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The real fact is this: Everybody who is  praising a plane simply because it his favorite ,he is  going to get shot down , no matter how good is his plane, because he is SILLY, if he is too SILLY to admit that his favourite plane was not better than X or Y plane, it is too SILLY to handle it, end of story  :biggrin:  :P

 hahaha true!!!! 

 

people start discussion that will never be an end  :biggrin:

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I've seen skilled pilots achieve 10 to 1 kill ratio with a FW a4 vs mustangs d20 , spit 9 ,14, tempest V. Seen fw 190 a9 kill as much as 4 la7 in one sortie. FM means nothing when compared with skill.

Skill aside FWs are generally forced to fight using BnZ tactics. Co Alt Co skill set any of the planes you have here are very capable of taking out a FW regardless of model. Down low that Tempest will eat a FW for lunch. It was mentioned above it depended very much on the server. Some of the more DF oriented servers appealed to newer pilots which created the parity in Kill to Death ratios. Guys would form really bad habits with aircraft that had superior turn capability. Once a FW sees this they learned to cut corners and get good at deflection shooting. After flying the FW for years and switching to many of the planes above I had no troubles with FWs. Anybody getting caught with their pants down regardless of aircraft was done. The A3 we are getting will be a difficult airplane to counter though I would say the LA is up to the job. Later 43 models against the A5 and A6 like the F and FN it becomes a lot more even and in some cases down low the LA has the advantage with speed.

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Very true.

So the soviets used the Yak3's as the Fw counter primarily then?

 

I want to say that it was the Spitfire Mk. IX that was one of the aircraft from the lend lease program that countered the FW-190 on the Eastern Front. 

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I never flew agains good La pilots?   :lol: ok ok ok. I only say ADW

 

You dont know how I am ;) , so as I said. Skills talk more than planes. Face a plane that you know everything about using a plane that you know everything about you will have 40% of chance to kill the enemy. 60% are combat skills

And you don`t know who I am. I was flying online wars back when ADW was wearing diapers. ;) Recognize any of my badges?

And I never said anything against pilot skills. I just said that a single La5 shouldn`t have a problem against a single FW190A3.

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How many fighter units in which years used the Fw 190 on the Eastern Front? How large was the necessity to counter it? Without knowing the exact numbers - few, small. The large majority of the few fighter squadrons for most of the time even after the Fw introduction stuck with the Bf 109.

 

WRT fighter bombing, the Fw was a great threat and very difficult to deal with for the VVS. Which is why the Germans extensively used it in that role. It required a very quick, dedicated response by fighter units to catch the Fw's. The VVS did not have that response, mostly due to tactics, not due to aircraft.

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Not true. JG54 in the north and JG51 in the centre used the Fw190 extensively.

 

There was no JG in the south (Stalingrad/Kuban etc) that used the Fw190.

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I don't know why people are expecting a super fighter.  The 190 was a great energy fighter, but NOT GOOD in turns.  The type of fighting in this game tends to favour the turning Soviet fighters over the patience-requring 190.  

 

I expect a lot of complaining due to unrealistic expectations when it's released.

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I don't know why people are expecting a super fighter.  The 190 was a great energy fighter, but NOT GOOD in turns.  The type of fighting in this game tends to favour the turning Soviet fighters over the patience-requring 190.  

 

I expect a lot of complaining due to unrealistic expectations when it's released.

Very true, many seems to expect that simply because the FW190 was know as a good fighter, it would outmatch every aircraft in any aspect. Not True! Flown to its strenghets the FW190 will be a great guns platform. It cant do everything with great success.

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Not true. JG54 in the north and JG51 in the centre used the Fw190 extensively.

 

There was no JG in the south (Stalingrad/Kuban etc) that used the Fw190.

You're not exactly contradicting my statement, in case the "not true" was a direct response. Even JG51 used the 109 more extensively than the 190.

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I want to say that it was the Spitfire Mk. IX that was one of the aircraft from the lend lease program that countered the FW-190 on the Eastern Front. 

Spit IX arrived late there, from 1944 according to several sources, specifically february according to airpages.ru.

Edited by Calvamos

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Plan the rough attack in advance. IF defensive, run away.

 

After two passes and two turns you can decide for yourself if it is not worth to pursue the fight and then run away and fight another day.

 

Anything else means he is shot down already.

 

Yep. :salute:

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I don't know why people are expecting a super fighter.  The 190 was a great energy fighter, but NOT GOOD in turns.  The type of fighting in this game tends to favour the turning Soviet fighters over the patience-requring 190.  

 

I expect a lot of complaining due to unrealistic expectations when it's released.

This is what the Russian pilots were told back in 1942 about the fw190:

"In all probability the Germans have used their FW-190s on the Russian front to a much lesser extent than elsewhere, and the standards of air combat on that front very likely differ from those over Western Europe and in the Mediterranean. The following translation of an article which appeared in the "Red Fleet" compares some of the tactics used by the German and Russian fighter planes (FW-190 and La-5). It should be pointed out that these observations apply particularly to the Russian front and are not necessarily in line with experiences in other European theaters. This translation is published without evaluation or comment, purely for its informational value in presenting Russian opinion concerning the FW-190, as printed in the "Red Fleet." 

 

The FW-190 first appeared on the Soviet-German front at the end of 1942. This is the first high-speed German fighter with an air-cooled engine. In comparison with the Me-109 and its modernized versions, the Me-109F and the Me-109G, the FW-190 is of a higher quality. The speed of the FW-190 is slightly higher than that of the Messerschmitt; it also has more powerful armament and is more maneuverable in horizontal flight. The FW-190 has a large supply of ammunition, with 15 seconds of cannon fire, and 50 seconds of constant machine-gun fire. For this reason the gunners are not economical with their ammunition, and often open up the so-called "frightening fire". The pilots have good visibility laterally, forward, upward and rearward. A fairly good horizontal maneuver permits the FW-190 to turn at low speed without falling into a tail spin. An armored ring on the front part of the engine provides the pilot with reliable protection; for this reason, the FW-190's quite often make frontal attacks. In this way they differ from the Me-109s. One shortcoming of the FW-190 is its weight. The lightest model of this plane weighs 3,500 kgs. (7,700 lbs), while the average weight is from 3,800 (8,360 lbs) to 3,900 kgs. (8,580 lbs). Since the FW-190 is so heavy and does not have a high-altitude engine, pilots do not like to fight in vertical maneuvers. Another weak point in the FW-190 is the poor visibility downward, both forward and rearward. The FW-190 is seriously handicapped in still another way; there is no armor around the gas tanks, which are situated under the pilot's seat and behind it. From below, the pilot is not protected in any way; from behind, the only protection is the ordinary seat-back with 15-mm of armor. Even bullets from our large caliber machine guns penetrate this armor, to say nothing of cannon. The main problem confronting our fliers is that of forcing the Germans to fight from positions advantageous to us. The FW-190's eagerly make frontal attacks. Their methods of conducting fire in such cases is quite stereotyped. To begin with the Germans open fire with long-range ammunition from the horizontal cannons at a distance of 1,000 meters (3,200 feet). At 500 or 400 meters (1,000 or 1,300 feet) the FW-190 opens fire from all guns. Since the planes approach each other at an extremely great speed during frontal attacks one should never, under any circumstances, turn from the given course. Fire should be opened at a distance of 700 or 800 meters, (2,300 or 2,600 feet). Practice has shown that in frontal attacks both planes are so damaged that, in the majority of cases, they are compelled to drop out of the battle. Therefore, frontal attacks with FW-190's may be made only when the battle happens to be over our territory. Frontal engagements over enemy territory, or even more so in the enemy rear, should be avoided. If a frontal attack of an FW-190 should fail the pilot usually attempts to change the attacks into a turning engagement. Being very stable and having a large range of speeds, the FW-190 will inevitably offer turning battle at a minimum speed. Our Lavochkin-5 may freely take up the challenge, if the pilot uses the elevator tabs correctly. By using your foot to hold the plane from falling into a tail spin you can turn the La-5 at an exceedingly low speed, thus keeping the FW from getting on your tail. When fighting the La-5, the FW risks a vertical maneuver only at high speed. For example, let us assume that the first frontal attack of an FW failed. The plane then goes on ahead and prepares for a second frontal attack. If it fails a second time, the pilot turns sharply to the side and goes into a steep dive. On coming out of the dive, he picks up speed in horizontal flight and engages the opposing plane in a vertical maneuver. Vertical-maneuver fighting with the FW-190 is usually of short duration since our planes have a better rate of climb than the German planes, and because the Germans are unable to withstand tense battles of any length. The winner in present air battles must have an advantage in altitude. This is especially true with regard to the FW-190. "Once a comrade of mine and I engaged two FW-190's at a height of 3,500 meters (10,850 ft). After three energetic attacks we succeeded in chasing the two FW-190's down to 1,500 meters (4,650 ft). All the while we kept our advantage in height. As usual the German tried, out of an inverted turn, to get away and below, but I got one in my sight and shot it down. After that we immediately went up to 3,700 meters (11,470 ft) and met another group of FW-190's as they were attacking one of our Pe-2 bombers. We made use of our advantage in height and by vertical attacks succeeded in chasing the Germans away and also shot one down." When following a diving FW you should never dive below the other enemy planes. When two planes dive the one following the leader should come out of the dive in such a way as to be at an advantage over the leading plane in height and speed. In this way the tail of the leading plane will be protected; at the same time, the second plane will also be able to open up direct fire against the enemy. In fighting the FW-190 our La-5 should force the Germans to fight by using the vertical maneuver. This may be achieved by constantly making vertical attacks. The first climb of the FW is usually good, the second worse, and the third altogether poor. This may be explained by the fact that the FW's great weight does not permit it to gather speed quickly in the vertical maneuver. After two or three persistent attacks by our fighters the FWs completely lose their advantage in height and in speed, and inevitably find themselves below. And because of this, they are sure to drop out of the battle into a straight dive (sometimes up to 90 degrees) with the idea of gaining height on the side, and then of coming in again from the side of the sun with an advantage in speed and height. At times it happens that the FW, after diving, does not gain altitude, but attempts to drop out of the battle altogether in low flight. However, the FW-190 is never able to come out of a dive below 300 or 250 meters (930 ft or 795 ft). Coming out of a dive, made from 1,500 meters (4,650 ft) and at an angle of 40 to 45 degrees, the FW-190 falls an extra 200 meters (620 ft). A shortcoming of the FW-190 is its poor climbing ability. When climbing in order to get an altitude advantage over the enemy, there is a moment when the FW-190 "hangs" in the air. It is then convenient to fire. Therefore, when following a FW-190 in a dive, you should bring your plane out of the dive slightly before the FW comes out of it, in order to catch up with him on the vertical plane. In other words, when the FW comes out of the dive you should bring your plane out in such a way as to have an advantage over the enemy in height. If this can be achieved, the FW-190 becomes a fine target when it "hangs". Direct fire should be opened up at a short distance, 50 to 100 meters (150 to 300 ft). It should also be remembered that the weakest spots of the FW-190 are below and behind--the gasoline tanks and the pilot's legs, which are not protected. Throughout the whole engagement with a FW-190, it is necessary to maintain the highest speed possible. The Lavochkin-5 will then have, when necessary, a good vertical maneuver, and consequently, the possibility of getting away from an enemy attack or on the contrary, of attacking. It should further be kept in mind that the La-5 and the FW-190 in outward appearance resemble each other very much; therefore, careful observation is of great importance."

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Hey all,

 

I understand the Fw190 was a superb machine and for a while had no match on the western or easter fronts, what did the soviets make to counter the Foke Wulf threat? and will we see that adversary in game.

 

Oh yeah and I'm feeling sheepish about MP knowing 190's will be out there from tonight onwards, its full because for a week or so the dreaded 109's will become a memory :o:

Meh

Most pilots are not smart enough or patient enough to fly such aircraft within the proper fight envelope and they end up as no particular threat.

I saw it over and over again online with the old IL2, with any airplane you care to name. 

 

There are of course exceptions - I always make sure I'm one of them. Do the same with the AC you're flying and you'll do just fine. :)

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I would say 13,5 m/s for the Fw 190

and for the Bf109G2/F4 19.5 m/s

and for La-5 18m/s

and for Yak-1 17 m/s

and for Lagg-3 15 m/s

This is not true! Dear god. Fw 190 had 15 m/s!

And La-5 18m/s ? I do not think so. :)

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Early on they found it could be killed in a head to head if shot at slightly from below. But generally early on it was a problem. There's a story of 2 Fw190s bnz'ing about 20 LaGGs that were climbing up to meet them.

 

Later when the Fw190 because almost exclusively a fighter bomber in the east they would dive on it in a fast Yak and use their diving speed to ensure the FW couldn't just run away. Once it started turning the Yak would eat it.

 

Basically altitude and aggression win almost irrespective of aircraft.

 

After today, I won't be doing head-on's with 190's anytime in the far future. It seems to be the go-to plane for Germany. I did catch a few 190's in a turn though.

Edited by Silky

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And you don`t know who I am. I was flying online wars back when ADW was wearing diapers. ;) Recognize any of my badges?

And I never said anything against pilot skills. I just said that a single La5 shouldn`t have a problem against a single FW190A3.

Yes, I dont know who u are, because i never see this nick there. Badges? Dont tell nothing, I had so many badges that i dont remember. Flying in both side.

 

My point is: As you said again," La5 shouldn`t have a problem against a single FW190A3". Its wrong. you should never talk about it without considering personal skills.

 

Plane A dont have problem against plane B. how?

 

Its clear now?

 

ps. sry for my bad english

Edited by ViperBR
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Since i've been reading this things over and over again I want to make here a point.

 

The Fw-190 was not a very good BnZ: It was good in a dive, yes. But the Bf-109 performed in vertival moneuvers much better, because it coverted speed into height much better than the 190. 

 

The Fw190 was a pure BnZ machine: thats not true either. In fact, you can read alot about Fw190 pilots fighting alot in the horizontal (described by russian and western pilots). 

A lot of pilots said, that the Fw190 had easier controls, it was more forgiving in critical situations and it was easier to handle than a Bf109 (espacially for new pilots).

 

There are stories like some YAK-9 pilots fighting Fw-190s by using vertival maneuvers because they couldnt outturn them.

 

I think i saw some years ago in a forum this topic being discussed with the result, that alot of people have a somewhat wrong picure of the Fw190 (maybe thx to Il2 1946 ;) ) .

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Yeah sim behavior tends to become historical reality to some people - no doubt.

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Since i've been reading this things over and over again I want to make here a point.

 

The Fw-190 was not a very good BnZ: It was good in a dive, yes. But the Bf-109 performed in vertival moneuvers much better, because it coverted speed into height much better than the 190. 

 

The Fw190 was a pure BnZ machine: thats not true either. In fact, you can read alot about Fw190 pilots fighting alot in the horizontal (described by russian and western pilots). 

A lot of pilots said, that the Fw190 had easier controls, it was more forgiving in critical situations and it was easier to handle than a Bf109 (espacially for new pilots).

 

There are stories like some YAK-9 pilots fighting Fw-190s by using vertival maneuvers because they couldnt outturn them.

 

I think i saw some years ago in a forum this topic being discussed with the result, that alot of people have a somewhat wrong picure of the Fw190 (maybe thx to Il2 1946 ;) ) .

 

i have to agree with most of what you say here :) the 109 is a harder to fly then the 190 one of the factor is the take off and landing..

but in the end it all comes down to training and hours behind the stick

i dont know where these claims about bad turn times come from when ppl speak about 109 or 190..its simply not true

sure early models would turn better then later models..this is about weight..but the same case would be for lets say spitfire too..

reality isnt like war thunder..and thank god for that...my grand father was a warbird mechanic and was a teacher in the army..i guess he would have had a great laugh by some of the claims from kids on the internett..

im fortunate enough to be able to see the Spitfire about any time i want..there is one at the flight school my grand father worked..and i was also fortunate enough to see Spitfire and the de Havilland Vampire in the air this summer

and also a rare messerschmitt 108 (impressed by its turn rate) but the coolest plane i ever got to study and see in flight was the Blériot XI from 1909 :biggrin:

later this year i will go to see the Fw190-A3 in a museum this will be awsome :)

but im very happy how they made the 190 and the 109 ingame they both are good turners as they should be but they demand different technique to fly:)

i dont know much about russian planes..i only seen the british Aerostar guys with their Yak-50 and a Yak-52 (got engine failure during the day) 

 

some of what a spoke about is explained in a video of Skip holm..and a friend

 

 

Edited by VikingFjord

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I don't know why people are expecting a super fighter.  The 190 was a great energy fighter, but NOT GOOD in turns.  The type of fighting in this game tends to favour the turning Soviet fighters over the patience-requring 190. 

 

Surely thats the measure of a good pilot, not getting drawn into a situation that looses your advantage and gives it to the enemy.

I'm almost certain though that when aircraft are shot down, the pilot never even saw it coming.

Edited by BigPickle

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I want to say that it was the Spitfire Mk. IX that was one of the aircraft from the lend lease program that countered the FW-190 on the Eastern Front. 

 

Nope. The VVS did receive Spitfire V and Spitfire IX models but they weren't all that impressed with them. The Merlin engine is a bit more sensitive than the engines they were used to working with and it didn't perform nearly as well as it did in British hands. Moreover, a higher altitude oriented fighter that the Spitfires were, they didn't see much advantage to them. So Spitfire units were typically flown by the PVO squadrons (city air defense) although some served on the front lines of the Kuban conflict. You wouldn't find a Spitfire on the front lines very much after that.

 

Spit IX arrived late there, from 1944 according to several sources, specifically february according to airpages.ru.

 

This page says the numbers but not the dates... hard to find the dates.

 

http://ww2-weapons.com/History/Production/Russia/Lend-Lease.htm

 

143 Spitfire V

1188 Spitfire IX

 

Hard to find any details on units that the Spit IX served in either. Again, I suspect all of them were shipped off to the rear and not used on the front lines.

 

 

 

If you want to talk about aircraft used to counter the FW190... I think it's kind of a flawed argument. The VVS was in the business of shooting down any and all Axis aircraft and the type didn't matter too much. The Yak-1B, Yak-9/9T, La-5/5F/5FN were all considered sufficiently capable of fighting the contemporary FW190 and Bf109. In the Battle of Stalingrad the VVS was just getting itself on its feet and recovering from two terrible years of combat and turning itself into the fighting force that could counter the Luftwaffe.

 

The British maybe had the biggest problem with the FW190 early on because it was so new and so unfamiliar that pilots weren't accustomed to the aircrafts abilities. The roll rate difference between any of the front line RAF fighters and the FW190 was fairly extreme while the Yak and La series fighters were better in roll rate and later Yak models were quite fast in their own right - so the roll superiority the FW190 enjoyed on the West Front (even the P-47 which was good, wasn't that good) wasn't there on the East Front.

 

I'd say the FW190s biggest advantage in the east was straight line low level speed performance. It was excellent at this and unchallenged until the La-5FN at which point things got more dangerous for Jabo pilots (aside from the flak and Russian anti-air doctrine which was to fire all guns at passing aircraft from service pistol to dedicated AA battery).

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Hard to find any details on units that the Spit IX served in either. Again, I suspect all of them were shipped off to the rear and not used on the front lines.

absolutely nothing really hard to find, if you try to search, and again you just suspect - because soviet spitfires-9 were used around leningrad and baltica area, in PVO, but sources said that were fights with fw 190 and even has soviet spitfire-9 aces. although, it's only by my memory...

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The 190 is a great looking plane for sure but I'll stick with my 109. I feel at home in a 109 and its been that way since IL2 but I've always felt very awkward in the 190. The Luftwaffe was so out numbered on all fronts, I find it quite amazing they held out as long as they did I think it was honestly about 10 to 1 in Russia. I know in Africa the Brits had about 600 fighters while the Germans only had a 100 or so.

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I'd say the FW190s biggest advantage in the east was straight line low level speed performance. It was excellent at this and unchallenged until the La-5FN at which point things got more dangerous for Jabo pilots (aside from the flak and Russian anti-air doctrine which was to fire all guns at passing aircraft from service pistol to dedicated AA battery).

Yes, untill the YAK-1 could close rads fully for 5-6minuts, and cruise at 570kmh during this period, this is what they do currently. Makes it alot harder to fly FW. Still a cool machine.

Edited by LG.1Mueller

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...

 

143 Spitfire V

1188 Spitfire IX

 

Hard to find any details on units that the Spit IX served in either. Again, I suspect all of them were shipped off to the rear and not used on the front lines.

190 LF IXc, 989 LF IXe, 2 HF IXe, most of them received in 1944, starting in February.

 

They served with a dozen PVO that were mostly based well out of range of the front line. 26 and 27 GIAP did see combat with the IX in the Leningrad area and even scored a couple of kills.

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Nope. The VVS did receive Spitfire V and Spitfire IX models but they weren't all that impressed with them. The Merlin engine is a bit more sensitive than the engines they were used to working with and it didn't perform nearly as well as it did in British hands. Moreover, a higher altitude oriented fighter that the Spitfires were, they didn't see much advantage to them. So Spitfire units were typically flown by the PVO squadrons (city air defense) although some served on the front lines of the Kuban conflict. You wouldn't find a Spitfire on the front lines very much after that.

 

 

This page says the numbers but not the dates... hard to find the dates.

 

http://ww2-weapons.com/History/Production/Russia/Lend-Lease.htm

 

143 Spitfire V

1188 Spitfire IX

 

Hard to find any details on units that the Spit IX served in either. Again, I suspect all of them were shipped off to the rear and not used on the front lines.

 

 

 

If you want to talk about aircraft used to counter the FW190... I think it's kind of a flawed argument. The VVS was in the business of shooting down any and all Axis aircraft and the type didn't matter too much. The Yak-1B, Yak-9/9T, La-5/5F/5FN were all considered sufficiently capable of fighting the contemporary FW190 and Bf109. In the Battle of Stalingrad the VVS was just getting itself on its feet and recovering from two terrible years of combat and turning itself into the fighting force that could counter the Luftwaffe.

 

The British maybe had the biggest problem with the FW190 early on because it was so new and so unfamiliar that pilots weren't accustomed to the aircrafts abilities. The roll rate difference between any of the front line RAF fighters and the FW190 was fairly extreme while the Yak and La series fighters were better in roll rate and later Yak models were quite fast in their own right - so the roll superiority the FW190 enjoyed on the West Front (even the P-47 which was good, wasn't that good) wasn't there on the East Front.

 

I'd say the FW190s biggest advantage in the east was straight line low level speed performance. It was excellent at this and unchallenged until the La-5FN at which point things got more dangerous for Jabo pilots (aside from the flak and Russian anti-air doctrine which was to fire all guns at passing aircraft from service pistol to dedicated AA battery).

 

 

 

"Shamrock"........Man, I can't believe how arrogant and dismissive you are with other peoples opinions man.   when you come out and reply with.........."Nope".......  Your point of view is just as valued as mine when it comes to the Spit IX and other similar a/c and no better as well. 

 

Edited by Greywulf__1

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FWIW  he followed up his "nope" with sound data - he didn't just let it hang there.

I disagree with the 190 vs Jug comment though - nothing beat the Jug as a CAS aircraft.

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FWIW  he followed up his "nope" with sound data - he didn't just let it hang there.

I disagree with the 190 vs Jug comment though - nothing beat the Jug as a CAS aircraft.

 

I read it as he means the P-47's roll rate in his statment. :)

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The 190 has been an easy kill for me flying VVS. When I am flying the 190 the frontal visibility is very poor and its easy to lose targets when they get obstructed by the support bars, you cant seem to move your head around the cockpit enough to see around them. The 190's wings also seem overly fragile, only a hit or two and they rip off. From what I understand, the 190 had very sturdy wings hence the wider landing gear hopefully this will get updated. 

 

In the multiplayer servers it seems like the "butcher bird" is the one getting butchered.

Edited by IIN8II
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Nope. The VVS did receive Spitfire V and Spitfire IX models but they weren't all that impressed with them. The Merlin engine is a bit more sensitive than the engines they were used to working with and it didn't perform nearly as well as it did in British hands. Moreover, a higher altitude oriented fighter that the Spitfires were, they didn't see much advantage to them. So Spitfire units were typically flown by the PVO squadrons (city air defense) although some served on the front lines of the Kuban conflict. You wouldn't find a Spitfire on the front lines very much after that.

 

 

This page says the numbers but not the dates... hard to find the dates.

 

http://ww2-weapons.com/History/Production/Russia/Lend-Lease.htm

 

143 Spitfire V

1188 Spitfire IX

 

Hard to find any details on units that the Spit IX served in either. Again, I suspect all of them were shipped off to the rear and not used on the front lines.

 

 

 

If you want to talk about aircraft used to counter the FW190... I think it's kind of a flawed argument. The VVS was in the business of shooting down any and all Axis aircraft and the type didn't matter too much. The Yak-1B, Yak-9/9T, La-5/5F/5FN were all considered sufficiently capable of fighting the contemporary FW190 and Bf109. In the Battle of Stalingrad the VVS was just getting itself on its feet and recovering from two terrible years of combat and turning itself into the fighting force that could counter the Luftwaffe.

 

The British maybe had the biggest problem with the FW190 early on because it was so new and so unfamiliar that pilots weren't accustomed to the aircrafts abilities. The roll rate difference between any of the front line RAF fighters and the FW190 was fairly extreme while the Yak and La series fighters were better in roll rate and later Yak models were quite fast in their own right - so the roll superiority the FW190 enjoyed on the West Front (even the P-47 which was good, wasn't that good) wasn't there on the East Front.

 

I'd say the FW190s biggest advantage in the east was straight line low level speed performance. It was excellent at this and unchallenged until the La-5FN at which point things got more dangerous for Jabo pilots (aside from the flak and Russian anti-air doctrine which was to fire all guns at passing aircraft from service pistol to dedicated AA battery).

 

 

 

"Shamrock"........Man, I can't believe how arrogant and dismissive you are with other peoples opinions man.   when you come out and reply with.........."Nope".......  Your point of view is just as valued as mine when it comes to the Spit IX and other similar a/c and no better as well. 

 

 

I apologise. It was not intended that way... expediency in language on the internet causes all kinds of conflict and ill will. I committed one there.

 

I don't know everything but I also didn't want other people to think that the VVS was reliant on Spitfires to counter FW190s... it's been a common myth in Western circles that I also once believed. The concept that the Soviet air force in WWII used Western fighters to fight their battles when the contrary was very much true. Also not discounting that some lend lease types saw great use as well but they were just as often not.

 

Also I did want to mention that I try to avoid my own opinion as much as possible. Although its impossible to be unbiased, I read documents and data and books and the like. I use that information when talking about this stuff. So it's as "hard data" as I can make it and I'm always open to new data. Like what JtD posted which was very much appreciated about the Spit IX sub models and squadrons that had recorded kills.

I read it as he means the P-47's roll rate in his statment. :)

 

 

Ahh...that would make sense  :)

Yep, roll rate discussion purely :)

 

As far as a CAS aircraft goes... it's interesting because the two are somewhat similar and also divergent designs but both are very interesting fighters turned into close support and both did fairly well at it too.

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Yes, I dont know who u are, because i never see this nick there. Badges? Dont tell nothing, I had so many badges that i dont remember. Flying in both side.

 

My point is: As you said again," La5 shouldn`t have a problem against a single FW190A3". Its wrong. you should never talk about it without considering personal skills.

 

Plane A dont have problem against plane B. how?

 

Its clear now?

 

ps. sry for my bad english

Right. Didn`t see any Viper back when I was flying. So you don`t recognise the badges, I rest my case then.

 

Nothing wrong here. "How" is : both pilots are equal in piloting skill. Simple enough to understand.

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i got a 13 kd ratio with 190 in il246 and just 1.5 with spit 25lbs

 

if you cant beat your enemy join him

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S!

 

 The thing is you already get the La-5 in game to fly as fast or faster than the modernized version. I bet if we had La-5F it would go near 600km/h and FN + LA-7 way over 600km/h due "cold air boost".

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The 190 has been an easy kill for me flying VVS. When I am flying the 190 the frontal visibility is very poor and its easy to lose targets when they get obstructed by the support bars, you cant seem to move your head around the cockpit enough to see around them. The 190's wings also seem overly fragile, only a hit or two and they rip off. From what I understand, the 190 had very sturdy wings hence the wider landing gear hopefully this will get updated. 

 

In the multiplayer servers it seems like the "butcher bird" is the one getting butchered.

So much as sneeze at it, the wings fly off.

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IMHO: As is the 190 can be simply countered just by using any red scout of your desire. The 190 cant do anything well but attack groundtargets. Sadly. The F4 is the best choice when it comes to fighters on the german side. I still hope the 190 will get some better speed numbers on low to middle alts. Currently its slower than the 109 at all alts except 1000m and up to 7000m.

Edited by VSG1_Winger

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That's how it was. So why should the game be different, if it is meant to simulate?

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That's how it was. So why should the game be different, if it is meant to simulate?

I dont want to argue. If the numbers are historically correct i am fine with it. But shouldnt the 190 be faster than the 109 at lower to middle alts? Because its not (except for below 1000m).

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