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BigPickle

Counter The Fw190 Threat

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Hey all,

 

I understand the Fw190 was a superb machine and for a while had no match on the western or easter fronts, what did the soviets make to counter the Foke Wulf threat? and will we see that adversary in game.

 

Oh yeah and I'm feeling sheepish about MP knowing 190's will be out there from tonight onwards, its full because for a week or so the dreaded 109's will become a memory :o:

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Early on they found it could be killed in a head to head if shot at slightly from below. But generally early on it was a problem. There's a story of 2 Fw190s bnz'ing about 20 LaGGs that were climbing up to meet them.

 

Later when the Fw190 because almost exclusively a fighter bomber in the east they would dive on it in a fast Yak and use their diving speed to ensure the FW couldn't just run away. Once it started turning the Yak would eat it.

 

Basically altitude and aggression win almost irrespective of aircraft.

Edited by =38=Tatarenko
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Early on they found it could be killed in a head to head if shot at slightly from below. But generally early on it was a problem. There's a story of 2 Fw190s bnz'ing about 20 LaGGs that were climbing up to meet them.

 

Later when the Fw190 because almost exclusively a fighter bomber in the east they would dive on it in a fast Yak and use their diving speed to ensure the FW couldn't just run away. Once it started turning the Yak would eat it.

 

Basically altitude and aggression win almost irrespective of aircraft.

To the point!

Edited by VSG1_Winger

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Very true.

So the soviets used the Yak3's as the Fw counter primarily then?

Edited by BigPickle

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The VVS pilots actually didn't fear the Fw 190 that much. They commonly regarded it as inferior to the Bf 109.

 

This might seem a bit strange, but it propably stems from the fact that Soviet fighter pilots most often would have met the 190 in the fighter-bomber role and thus more often as a target than a threat.

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If I remember correctly from what I read in the Yakovlev memories that later in the war how heavier the Fw-190 became how better and easier to master in air combat. And on the western front in 1941 it was faster than the Spitfire Mk V had a better roll rate could there for engage and disengage from combat wen the pilot desire so but it was a other story when the Spitfire Mk IX and the Typhon  where introduced. TheFW-190 was one of the fighter planes of Germans but produced in to little numbers on to many fronts to face to many enemies! It was never the best fighter and never the worst also like so many it all depended of its pilots. :( 

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I think it will be a lot less popular than the 109F tbh. It had an inferior climb rate and inferior low speed turning ability. Combine that with the fact that the 109's are not subject to high speed control lockup currently (due in part to a trim exploit) and there really isn't much appeal to the 190 for the masses. I suspect it will be as popular as the La-5 is. It won't be a rare plane, but your typical German fighter will remain a 109 once the initial newness wares off.

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I look fwd to try the Fw190 in IL2 BOS, because presently and as I mostly fly Russian fighters, I feel rather disappointed with the La5 :-(

 

The Yak-1 is probably my preferred in NORMAL servers, but at the EXPERT servers I am beginning to really prefer the LaGG3.

 

When, rarely, I jump into a Bf109 F4, it is a lot easier.... It's a different league, completely. 

 

Being an almost total ww2 ( and military aviation as a whole ) illiterate, I don't know if I am making a fair judgement, but at least from what I

get in IL2 BOS, the Bf109s are considerably superior in versatility, provided one uses them the right way. This applies to the Russian fighters too,

but either because I have no air combat experience, or because I really do not know how to properly use them, or for any other reason, 

even trying hard to use the Yak-1 or the LaGG3 the best way against my Bf109 opponents, it's difficult, if not impossible to win, when they 

really know how to maneuver their machines.

 

But, I've been able to win at least two dogfights against Russian "pilots" that are usually scoring high in the Expert servers, when I picked the F4

under situations where there were no Russian slots available....

Edited by jcomm

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I think it will be a lot less popular than the 109F tbh

 

+1

 

Add to that the nasty departures it would make into a stall or spin with very little warning and it's going to be a lot less forgiving than the 109 if you start to yank the stick around.

 

But with a pilot who knows how to use it's speed, energy retention and roll rate and tremendous firepower it's going to be a beast. Though given that the roll rates are already too high across the board for all planes currently the 190 is going to be insanely fast relative to what we have now.

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Hey all,

 

I understand the Fw190 was a superb machine and for a while had no match on the western or easter fronts, what did the soviets make to counter the Foke Wulf threat? and will we see that adversary in game.

 

Oh yeah and I'm feeling sheepish about MP knowing 190's will be out there from tonight onwards, its full because for a week or so the dreaded 109's will become a memory :o:

 

The FW 190 was maybe for a real plane at WWII a superb machine but inside the game a different language. The FW 190 has a very low climbrate than a Bf109G2/F4 & La5 & Yak-1 and Lagg3. You can run away from a FW 190 with any Soviet Fighter from a FW 190. :rofl:

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Very true.

So the soviets used the Yak3's as the Fw counter primarily then?

 

Yes but it relied on the Fw190 starting lower. Plus by that stage in the war they were often being flown by bomber/stuka pilots on ground attack sorties so easy prey for fighter pilots.

The FW 190 was maybe for a real plane at WWII a superb machine but inside the game a different language. The FW 190 has a very low climbrate than a Bf109G2/F4 & La5 & Yak-1 and Lagg3. You can run away from a FW 190 with any Soviet Fighter from a FW 190. :rofl:

I think you're mistaken. The Fw190 will be fast, enjoy a good zoom climb, be able to kill a Pe-2 or IL-2 in one pass and in the expert server should prove deadly. Personally I dread them.

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Yes but it relied on the Fw190 starting lower. Plus by that stage in the war they were often being flown by bomber/stuka pilots on ground attack sorties so easy prey for fighter pilots.

I think you're mistaken. The Fw190 will be fast, enjoy a good zoom climb, be able to kill a Pe-2 or IL-2 in one pass and in the expert server should prove deadly. Personally I dread them.

 

Are you dreaming?  Even the Bf-109 G-2 vs Bf-109 F-4 has the same climbrate/turnrate and how fast the planes gain altitude! No difference between a DB605 vs DB601 Engine. :wacko:

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To the Fw-190 even if you remove the MGFF/M to get better flight physic it would not change the worse climbrate that this plane have.

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People should take into consideration that the 190A3 is not 190A5. They are different aircraft. The A3 AFAIK actually has better overall maneuverability, a bit more nimble like a fighter. In early stages of the Eastern Front it should do pretty good.

 

Yes but it relied on the Fw190 starting lower. Plus by that stage in the war they were often being flown by bomber/stuka pilots on ground attack sorties so easy prey for fighter pilots.


I think you're mistaken. The Fw190 will be fast, enjoy a good zoom climb, be able to kill a Pe-2 or IL-2 in one pass and in the expert server should prove deadly. Personally I dread them.

A single FW190 should not be a problem for a Lavochkin. That said, it should be ok until the La5FN enters the scene. In realistic missions however, a disciplined team can make it much better than the Messerschmitt. I prefer the Wuerger much more when bomber busting.

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Let me put it this way:

 

Way way back, over ten years ago, I was part of a squad flying Warbirds 2.01 on the old (and long deceased) german server. There the Fw 190 A-4 had a totally nutty FM (pull the stick = stall) and couldn't be flown any other way but strictly B&Z. Because we stuck together, never flew alone and flew in coordination the Fw 190 A-4 got a reputation for being the "best aircraft" and players were crying to see it "nerfed" in the rolling planeset because it was seen as "so awfully uber". That despite that WB 2.01 saw a Mustang and a Spit with all the goodies but none of the drawbacks ... One night we switched sides (as a squad of 16), took Spits and totally cleared the server just by sticking to our tactics and coordination. That earned us the reputation of being "cheaters". :rolleyes:  :wacko:

 

Bottom line: Don't waste time and energy on FM debates up to the nuts and bolts level but try the aircraft and try to fly it according to its strengths.

  • Upvote 3

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Let me put it this way:

 

Way way back, over ten years ago, I was part of a squad flying Warbirds 2.01 on the old (and long deceased) german server. There the Fw 190 A-4 had a totally nutty FM (pull the stick = stall) and couldn't be flown any other way but strictly B&Z. Because we stuck together, never flew alone and flew in coordination the Fw 190 A-4 got a reputation for being the "best aircraft" and players were crying to see it "nerfed" in the rolling planeset because it was seen as "so awfully uber". That despite that WB 2.01 saw a Mustang and a Spit with all the goodies but none of the drawbacks ... One night we switched sides (as a squad of 16), took Spits and totally cleared the server just by sticking to our tactics and coordination. That earned us the reputation of being "cheaters". :rolleyes:  :wacko:

 

Bottom line: Don't waste time and energy on FM debates up to the nuts and bolts level but try the aircraft and try to fly it according to its strengths.

 

The average blue pilots learned that in the hard way, so every FW pilot knew exactly how to coop with the other FW.

On the other side it was a mess...

Edited by 6S.Manu

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Back in Il-2, I spent many, many years in fw-190s. The 190 made a lot of players much more careful, smarter and better pilots.

Unlike most planes, back then, holding the stick in the belly will get you killed in a heart beat. Most players who stuck with it, got much better at killing things.

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Are you dreaming?  Even the Bf-109 G-2 vs Bf-109 F-4 has the same climbrate/turnrate and how fast the planes gain altitude!

Zoom climb and standard climbrate are different things. There's a missunderstanding.

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I've seen skilled pilots achieve 10 to 1 kill ratio with a FW a4 vs mustangs d20 , spit 9 ,14, tempest V. Seen fw 190 a9 kill as much as 4 la7 in one sortie. FM means nothing when compared with skill. 

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I've seen skilled pilots achieve 10 to 1 kill ratio with a FW a4 vs mustangs d20 , spit 9 ,14, tempest V. Seen fw 190 a9 kill as much as 4 la7 in one sortie. FM means nothing when compared with skill. 

 

Indeed. But in the case of the Fw 190 lotsa guns with lotsa ammo can mean lotsa kills.

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Very true.

So the soviets used the Yak3's as the Fw counter primarily then?

 

I honestly think you're putting too much into this. There is no reason to believe, that the VVS took any special steps to "counter" the Fw 190. In 1942 the Bf 109G outclassed anything in the VVS arsenal (though by less of a margin than the year before)´, the fact that the Luftwaffe started using a fighter that might be slightly better in some aspects made little difference.

 

The air war in the East was nowhere near as much of a technological horserace as it was in the West. The Soviet Union tried to improve on their existing designs of course, but mostly it was all about keeping production numbers up and supply the VVS with a steady stream of planes and pilots to keep the pressure against a tactically superior enemy.

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Russian planes from these peroid ( 1942) had not better climb rate then Fw 190. Other hand FW 190 was faster at all alts, better in dive and roll and had better armament. Also it had not worse turn rate then LA5. So it should be clearly superior to any russian plane from 1942.

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Yak-1 with M-105P has 926m/min climbrate while the Fw-190A3 has 900m/min. Not a huge advantage, but stlil better than the 190's sustained climb rate.

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Plan the rough attack in advance. IF defensive, run away.

 

After two passes and two turns you can decide for yourself if it is not worth to pursue the fight and then run away and fight another day.

 

Anything else means he is shot down already.

Edited by =LD=Hethwill_Khan

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Yak-1 with M-105P has 926m/min climbrate while the Fw-190A3 has 900m/min. Not a huge advantage, but stlil better than the 190's sustained climb rate.

 

Fw 190 A-3 at 3850 kg ( without outter cannons) got 16.5 m/s  ( 990 m/min) at climb settings  ( 1.32 Ata 2400 RPMs). At Start and notle power settings ( 1.42 Ata 2700 RPMS) it should have even better climb rate. With full armament it should climb ab. 15.5 m/s ( 930 m/min) at climb settings. ( and even better at emergency settings 2700 RPMs).

 

So russian planes hadn't better climb rate at these time peroid.

Edited by Kwiatek

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Fw 190 A-3 at 3850 kg ( without outter cannons) got 16.5 m/s  ( 990 m/min) at climb settings  ( 1.32 Ata 2400 RPMs). At Start and notle power settings ( 1.42 Ata 2700 RPMS) it should have even better climb rate. With full armament it should climb ab. 15.5 m/s ( 930 m/min) at climb settings. ( and even better at emergency settings 2700 RPMs).

 

So russian planes hadn't better climb rate at these time peroid.

 

I would say 13,5 m/s for the Fw 190

and for the Bf109G2/F4 19.5 m/s

and for La-5 18m/s

and for Yak-1 17 m/s

and for Lagg-3 15 m/s

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Back in Il-2, I spent many, many years in fw-190s. The 190 made a lot of players much more careful, smarter and better pilots.

Unlike most planes, back then, holding the stick in the belly will get you killed in a heart beat. Most players who stuck with it, got much better at killing things.

Holding the stick for some time, yes. However, skilled 190 pilots used flaps at times to gain impossible shooting angles. One can fly a La7 against 190 but won`t do much if on the first pass he gets peppered with 20mm.

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Look at your 6 every five seconds.

This is the point. For all sorties. You need to check around every time

 

A single FW190 should not be a problem for a Lavochkin. 

 Realy? I dont think so! You never flew against good FW pilots so. I loved enter in a dogfight with my Fw in IL2 1946, and I never lose a dogfight when was flying seriously. 

 

I've seen skilled pilots achieve 10 to 1 kill ratio with a FW a4 vs mustangs d20 , spit 9 ,14, tempest V. Seen fw 190 a9 kill as much as 4 la7 in one sortie. FM means nothing when compared with skill. 

 Yes, its true. In Spit vs 109 classic server, I flew for a long time and I get 6/12 kills per sorties with my FWs. 

 

People talk much nonsense, " La/yak/lagg is a sh.. , 109 is much better", bla bla bla. if they had skills with their planes, they would not be talking this.

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This is the point. For all sorties. You need to check around every time

 

 Realy? I dont think so! You never flew against good FW pilots so. I loved enter in a dogfight with my Fw in IL2 1946, and I never lose a dogfight when was flying seriously. 

Not at all. It is just that you never flew against good La pilots.

 

Also, fly some wars for a change. Combat flight simulators are a lot more than just dogfights.

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I think in a 1v1 situation vs most Russian aircrafts the FW190 will hold its own. It will probably be harder than the 109, due to its less forgiving nature. I dont see multiplayer being changed much with this new aircraft. Cant wait to fly it! 

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Fw 190 A-3 at 3850 kg ( without outter cannons) got 16.5 m/s  ( 990 m/min) at climb settings  ( 1.32 Ata 2400 RPMs). At Start and notle power settings ( 1.42 Ata 2700 RPMS) it should have even better climb rate. With full armament it should climb ab. 15.5 m/s ( 930 m/min) at climb settings. ( and even better at emergency settings 2700 RPMs).

 

So russian planes hadn't better climb rate at these time peroid.

 

900m/s.

post-9266-0-62683100-1406300152_thumb.jpg

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I would say 13,5 m/s for the Fw 190

and for the Bf109G2/F4 19.5 m/s

and for La-5 18m/s

and for Yak-1 17 m/s

and for Lagg-3 15 m/s

 

Too much russian

propaganda, really way too much :)

Edited by Kwiatek

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Not at all. It is just that you never flew against good La pilots.

 

Also, fly some wars for a change. Combat flight simulators are a lot more than just dogfights.

 

I never flew agains good La pilots?   :lol: ok ok ok. I only say ADW

 

You dont know how I am ;) , so as I said. Skills talk more than planes. Face a plane that you know everything about using a plane that you know everything about you will have 40% of chance to kill the enemy. 60% are combat skills

Edited by ViperBR

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...

you just wasting your time, because here useless to prove almost anything. and i even not want to mention modernized la-5 with 550 kph at SL, ie even if plane not in best condition, that's anyway faster than NEW fw 190 a-3'42 with grills.

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you just wasting your time, because here useless to prove almost anything. and i even not want to mention modernized la-5 with 550 kph at SL, ie even if plane not in best condition, that's anyway faster than NEW fw 190 a-3'42 with grills.

Modernized? Are we talking about a plane from ww2 with a new engine or somthing? I dont get you sorry. The FW190 was a fair opponet to any SSV fighter from that period. And if you wanna talk good fighters, lets talk about TA152?  :)

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Modernized? Are we talking about a plane from ww2 with a new engine or somthing? I dont get you sorry.

yep, just modernized (lightweight = ~3200-3240 kg instead 3360-3370 kg) la-5 type 37 with m-82a or m-82f (a bit modernized a-version), with a bit better quality (after special efforts for liquidation of bad quality) and ~550 kph at SL and 1150 mm hg (5 (10) min. forsazh), ie planes starting from ~9 series and further (during 1942 was produced around 999 la-5, each series it's around 100 planes, so, theoretically we have ~100 modernized planes, but mainly NOT in frontline IAPs).

 

moreover, i write about fw 190'42 with GRILLS instead flaps, if you know what i mean... ;) and if these planes showed ~540 kph at sl and SuN. (here also need to check game, i think)

 

later fw 190 1.42 ata was faster, almost like la-5fn or faster than bad la-5fn, here no other opinions... but it's by my memory, sorry if...

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