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What every one wants?


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3 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:


Hmm.  I’m not sure I would be too excited by that.  I wonder what the planeset would look like?  The German aircraft in particular are pretty well represented already.  

 

It's exactly for this reason (lack of excitement for the last Eastern Front module) that I think a non-standard Pacific development should occur at the same time. Getting a slow trickle of Pacific planes will keep the torchlit forum mobs at bay while the devs churn out the last copy-pastes of 109G-10s and Fw-190A-9s.

 

I think one Pacific plane per 8-12 months, alongside the regular Berlin/Whatever '45 module, would be a decent balance.

 

However much the Western audiences are bored by the next/final Eastern Front DLC, that DLC must happen. The Yak-3 must happen. It's far too good of a plane to ignore. Beyond that, if there is no Eastern Front finale, permanently ending the career mode for Russian pilots in '43 is kind of absurd.

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LuseKofte

I want peace on earth.

 

 

If I can't have that........

A Catalina  , Grumman duck, HE 115, or a FW 189 would be better flying along with

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1 hour ago, oc2209 said:

 

It's exactly for this reason (lack of excitement for the last Eastern Front module) that I think a non-standard Pacific development should occur at the same time. Getting a slow trickle of Pacific planes will keep the torchlit forum mobs at bay while the devs churn out the last copy-pastes of 109G-10s and Fw-190A-9s.

 

I think one Pacific plane per 8-12 months, alongside the regular Berlin/Whatever '45 module, would be a decent balance.

 

However much the Western audiences are bored by the next/final Eastern Front DLC, that DLC must happen. The Yak-3 must happen. It's far too good of a plane to ignore. Beyond that, if there is no Eastern Front finale, permanently ending the career mode for Russian pilots in '43 is kind of absurd.

I have a feeling battle of Seelow Heights might be the next. They might do what they did with Moscow and go right up the edge of Berlin but not let you fly over it. perhaps it could be modelled now with improvements in map tech.

 

If they run out of German planes to sell, could always just sell the same ones from bodenplatte plus a few others like 109G-10

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1 hour ago, Plants said:

I have a feeling battle of Seelow Heights might be the next. They might do what they did with Moscow and go right up the edge of Berlin but not let you fly over it. perhaps it could be modelled now with improvements in map tech.

 

If they run out of German planes to sell, could always just sell the same ones from bodenplatte plus a few others like 109G-10

 

I wouldn't mind if Berlin was cut off. I'd rather do that than fly through a land of a thousand stutters/frame drops.

 

And actually, yeah, since I'm advocating an atypical Pacific development, why not also abandon the classic 5/5 split for Berlin '45? Make it 4/4 or 3/5 German/Russian. It'd shorten overall development time and then the devs could move on to a more 'exciting' front that much sooner. 

 

Edit:

 

It also becomes much easier to think of planes for a 4/4 lineup. 

 

German: 109G-10, 190A-9, Ta-152, He-162 (collector). Don't bother making any bomber/ground attack planes for the Germans. 

 

Russian: Yak-3, La-7, IL-2 '44 version, Yak-9U (collector).

 

This would be a relatively light workload compared to some modules, both because of relative redundancy in plane types and fewer planes overall.

Edited by oc2209
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7 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

I wonder what the planeset would look like?

 

2129152483_BattleofBelrinLuftplaneset.thumb.jpg.b5466a7141e2405a217572c277aa3fd7.jpg

 

It's what everyone™ wanted ;)

Edited by Pict
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Dragon1-1

Regarding PTO, there's the Planes of Fame museum in California, which has a large collection to Japanese WWII aircraft, easily enough for a decent roster, assuming they also have documentation for them. If the devs didn't contact the museum already, they should, if only to find out how much it could help. 

 

Aside from that, I'd love to see some early WWII battle for a change. In fact, why not Invasion of Poland? That one was a bit lopsided with regards to tech, but Poland did put up quite a fight in the air. Also, it was fought with pre-war designs, and as such would bring something new to Il-2, since these aircraft fight very differently from the late war ones. Finding and translating surviving documentation should be easier than for PTO.

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18 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

More like this:

 

I have to agree with you here Klaus, when it comes to Japanese fighters I've always been more of a Nakajima fan than Missinbitsisy's and I'd possibly put the Kawasaki in the middle as 2nd choice.

 

I think the IJAAF managed to keep the Ki-43 more of a secret than the INJAF did with the 0 and it's often written that early on they were misidentified  as Zero's just because they were unknown or less well known.

 

Could be that everyone™ really wants an Oscar but doesn't yet know it :biggrin:

Edited by Pict
Tumbnling fingers
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Something something a camel is a horse designed by committee...

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Everyone™ is something something of hearing about Zero's...

Edited by Pict
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6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

@PictAll of the Light Japanese Fighters (Ki-43 and Zero) are Fish in a Barrel once the Second Generation of Allied Fighters comes about. 
They can Tango with Hurricanes, P-40Cs, Buffaloes and F4Fs. 
But as soon as Spitfires, F4U, F6F, P-38 and late P-40s arrive they are obsolete. 

The Army however has the Ki-44, Ki-61, Ki-84 and Ki-100 which are all exciting and good counters to the later Allied Types. 
The Navy gets some J2Ms, which aren't very good and N1Ks which only come in 1944 and are adequate. 
 

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44 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

All of the Light Japanese Fighters (Ki-43 and Zero) are Fish in a Barrel once the Second Generation of Allied Fighters comes about. 
They can Tango with Hurricanes, P-40Cs, Buffaloes and F4Fs. 
But as soon as Spitfires, F4U, F6F, P-38 and late P-40s arrive they are obsolete. 

The Army however has the Ki-44, Ki-61, Ki-84 and Ki-100 which are all exciting and good counters to the later Allied Types. 
The Navy gets some J2Ms, which aren't very good and N1Ks which only come in 1944 and are adequate.

 

Fully agree with all of this and would add that the N1K's while showing serious promise in the end, were developed from seaplanes and were not thoroughbred fighters like their army contermporaries the Ki-84 & Ki-100.

 

I would love to run the late war INJAF & INAAF fighters up against each other to see and feel the difference.

 

Ki-44 & Ki-61 are from that mid war period that I tend to favor across all theatres. The Shoki in particular I like the looks of... great interceptor in it's day. Looks like it's intercepting something even when it's parkerd on the airfield.

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6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
5 hours ago, Pict said:

The Shoki in particular I like the looks of... great interceptor in it's day. Looks like it's intercepting something even when it's parkerd on the airfield.

If you just consider the awesome Roll Rate and Snap Roll of the Hayabusa which I bet they carried over into the Shoki, but now with 1500hp at 2.7tons. 
 

Wiki sais 4:17 to 5000m, which is similar to a 109G-2s 4:11. 

In 1942 it is highly competitive. 

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6./ZG26_5tuka

Forget about your exotic origami stuff. If we indeed transition to pacific we need a proper entry.

British_Fleet_Air_Arm_Chance_Vough_F4U_C

(only thing more awesome would be a TBF-1c Avenger)

Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka
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spreckair

With regard to the common refrain that there is not enough information about Japanese aircraft, I wonder how true this is.  The scale modeling community seems to have a huge trove of research resources on Japanese planes, including official evaluations and testing data.  The US tested most if not all of the Japanese aircraft during and after the war, and I think that material is accessible.  I also believe that there are Japanese who have expert resources on Japanese planes. 

 

For instance, Hideyuki Shigeta, the President/owner of Zoukei-Mura, the Japanese scale model company that designs large scale models with complete interiors throughout the entire airframe, is an avid WWII aircraft enthusiast.  I would not be surprised if he would assist IL-2 developers.  There are probably others.

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AEthelraedUnraed
6 minutes ago, spreckair said:

With regard to the common refrain that there is not enough information about Japanese aircraft, I wonder how true this is.

It's what the Devs themselves tell us.

 

From what I understand, the main problem is with the more obscure types. There's plenty of Zeroes around, but once you get to slightly less known types such as the Val or the Kate, that changes. How did the gunner position look like? how much ammo did they carry? It's those small details that they're after, and that's a problem they apparently haven't resolved yet. Even though they did hire a Japanese researcher. (Going by previous posts by Jason that I can't be bothered to find right now).

 

If you have the resources and connections to do find out these details, please let us know! I would love a Pacific module, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

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8 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:


The Navy gets some J2Ms, which aren't very good and N1Ks which only come in 1944 and are adequate. 
 

 

The J2M was somewhat highly regarded by Allied intel (most likely because it was designed more along the lines of American planes than the typical Japanese aerobatic emphasis).

 

Post war testing revealed a pretty solid design when it wasn't running on palm oil:

 

"Two captured J2Ms were U.S. Technical Air Intelligence Command (TAIC) tested using 92 octane fuel plus methanol, with the J2M2 (Jack11) achieving a speed of 655 km/h (407 mph) at 5,520 m (17,400 ft), and J2M3 (Jack21) achieving a speed of 671 km/h (417 mph) at 4,980 m (16,600 ft)."

 

And this is pretty decent performance (however anecdotal) for obsolete planes:

 

"J2Ms took part in one of the final aerial combats of the Second World War when four Raidens, accompanied by eight Mitsubishi A6M Zeros, all belonging to the 302nd Kokutai, intercepted a formation of US Navy F6F Hellcats from the aircraft-carrier USS Yorktown (CV-10) during the morning of 15 August 1945 over the Kanto Plain. In the engagement, that took place only two hours before Japan officially announced its surrender, four Hellcats were lost along with two Raidens and two Zeros."

 

(Both quotes courtesy of Wikipedia)

 

Regarding the N1K2 (quite different than the initial floatplane N1K1 conversion) being merely 'adequate', I strongly disagree. Wikipedia does too, so I must be right:

 

"On 18 March 1945 one of the "Myrts" managed to spot U.S. carriers en route to Japan. The following morning, Shiden aircraft flown by 343 Kōkūtai intercepted 300 American aircraft. Many of the Shiden force were N1K2s. When the Shidens encountered Grumman F6F Hellcats from USN Fighter Bomber Squadron 17 (VBF-17), three aircraft were lost on both sides in the initial attack: one Hellcat and two Shidens were shot down by enemy ground fire, two fighters collided in mid-air, and one Hellcat crashed while trying to land. Another Shiden dived on a Hellcat group, and downed another one. In the end, the Hikōtai lost six fighters versus eight VBF-17 fighters on the other side.

 

Another noted encounter pitted the N1K against the Vought F4U Corsair; two Corsairs from VBF-10, accidentally separated from their main formations, were attacked by Shidens from the 343rd. Four N1K2s were shot down. The Corsairs managed to return to their carrier, USS Bunker Hill. A second encounter took place, when pilots flying Shidens initially mistook Corsairs from Marine Fighter Squadron 123 (VMF-123) for Hellcats and attacked. A 30-minute aerial duel ensued, in which three Corsairs were shot down, and another five were damaged. Three other F4Us returned to their carriers, but were so heavily damaged that the planes were scrapped. No Shidens were lost to Corsairs in that aerial battle. Losses for the Japanese N1K pilots did occur in related action, however; two Shidens were shot down upon return for landing by Hellcats of Fighting Squadron 9 (VF-9), while many more Shidens were destroyed by American fighters over another airfield where, low on fuel, their pilots tried to land. At the end of the day the 343rd, claimed 52 kills and the U.S. squadrons 63. The actual losses were 15 Shidens and 13 pilots, a "Myrt", with its three-man crew, and nine other Japanese fighters. The U.S. also took heavy losses: 14 fighters and seven pilots, plus 11 attack aircraft. Five days later an unofficial award was sent to 343rd Kōkūtai for the valour shown on 19 March."

 

Just because the Japanese couldn't afford the attrition doesn't mean these planes, pound for pound, with adequate pilots, weren't perfectly capable of fighting Allied planes on equal footing.

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2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Ki-44 ftw!

 

I don't know how much of a winner it was, though I'd dearly love to find out. Apparently from what I've read, it could hold it's own against all comers until it met the P-51 in early 1944...ok that was in China, where it may not have met too much of anything too hot?

 

Apart for anything else I reckon it a had one classy chassis, possibly not the most flattering angle, but just look at that thing;

 

1753144250_Ki-44USmarkings.jpg.f941059c609b50b1a8155c4846c68c43.jpg

 

2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

If you just consider the awesome Roll Rate and Snap Roll of the Hayabusa which I bet they carried over into the Shoki, but now with 1500hp at 2.7tons. 
 

Wiki sais 4:17 to 5000m, which is similar to a 109G-2s 4:11. 

In 1942 it is highly competitive. 

 

Looking at how much aileron it has, I'd say you have something there.

 

If it could roll & climb like that in 1942, it's well good enough for me :)

Edited by Pict
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1 hour ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

It's what the Devs themselves tell us.

 

From what I understand, the main problem is with the more obscure types. There's plenty of Zeroes around,

 

...and Oscars. :)

 

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6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
48 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

...and Oscars. :)

 

Why do you guys refer to the A6M as Zero and not Zeke while calling the Hayabusa Oscar? 

 

Hayabusa is such a beautiful Name. Oscar is such an ugly Name. Sounds like Thomas the Tank Engines grey, librarian Brother.

Edited by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
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Enceladus
2 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

There's plenty of Zeroes around, but once you get to slightly less known types such as the Val or the Kate, that changes. How did the gunner position look like? how much ammo did they carry? It's those small details that they're after, and that's a problem they apparently haven't resolved yet.

 

Jason states at 1:03:00 in this interview with Shamrock that they may have enough info to make the cockpit and the instruments of the Val, Kate... basically a plane with a rear gunner, but in regards to the gunner position, they have hardly any info on that and educated guesswork may be required.

 

But looking at it from a different view, how important are these relatively minor details, will they affect our gameplay experience? And if they are able to make the cockpit and bombardier/nose gunner position of the "Betty", "Nell", and "Sally" but have no details about the other gunner stations then can those be left as AI?

 

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Dennis_Nedry

Battle of Bismarck (1941) + Western Channel theatre 


aka Atlantic Carrier ops/Western Channel front

 

Allies:

Swordfish I

Martlet II

Sea Hurricane I

Beaufort I

Collector - Whirlwind I

 

Axis:

Ar 196 A2

Bf 109 E4/B

Bf 110 C7

Ju 88 A17

Collector - Fw 190 A1

 

Fw 200(AI)

 

Multiple ships including Bismarck, Prinz Eugen, Ark Royal, Audacity(ship Eric Brown flew Martlets from) and few other smaller vessels like E Boats and U Boats

 

Two maps
 

SW England(Cornwall, Devon) down to Brittany as far as Brest and then the western approaches.

 

A second open ocean map for Bismarck mission, Audacity convoy etc..

 

Bf 109F, Spitfire V, and Hurricane II to round out planeset

 

 

Edited by Dennis_Nedry
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1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Why do you guys refer to the A6M as Zero and not Zeke while calling the Hayabusa Oscar? 

 

Popular culture, most likely. 

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2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Why do you guys refer to the A6M as Zero and not Zeke while calling the Hayabusa Oscar? 

 

Hayabusa is such a beautiful Name. Oscar is such an ugly Name. Sounds like Thomas the Tank Engines grey, librarian Brother.

 

Most contemporary pilot accounts I've read refer to the A6M as the Zero, for one thing. I would guess that the press at the time preferred Zero to Zeke as well, but I can't verify that easily.

 

If English isn't your native language, it might not make sense to you--but in my opinion, Zeke sounds stupid. Zero just sounds better and captures the imagination more. It's also kind of embarrassing to say you were shot down by anything called 'Zeke'. I imagine the only time it really mattered was between the specific kinds of Zero, like the Hamp.

 

Now, regarding all the other designations for Japanese planes, well, those didn't have convenient translations like the Zero did. Most Americans wouldn't know a B6N Tenzan was a 'Heavenly Mountain', and even if you told them, they couldn't use the translation with a straight face. Thus names like 'Jill' would stick with 99% of Japanese planes.

 

*Edit:

 

Hayabusa is indeed a nice name without translation, as are a lot of other Japanese names. But it's also worth remembering that when you're locked in mortal combat with an enemy of your nation, you really aren't thinking in terms of how poetic their words sound. Most of the time, you'll think of their planes as 'that son of a bitch' and 'goddamn blankety-blank'.

Edited by oc2209
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2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Why do you guys refer to the A6M as Zero and not Zeke while calling the Hayabusa Oscar? 

 

Hayabusa is such a beautiful Name. Oscar is such an ugly Name. Sounds like Thomas the Tank Engines grey, librarian Brother.

 

 

Pop culture for one thing like Luke said...but why is it the pop culture?

 

"Tally ho Hayabusas 2 o'clock low!"

 

I don't think that was uttered much, if at all in the war...I'll wager not even once.

Too many syllables for one thing. I can think of several words that would have been used, including "meatballs" among others including "Zero" since

Allied pilots used the term liberally to describe Japanese fighters at the time.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Sounds like Thomas the Tank Engines grey, librarian Brother.

And just what, pray, would be bad about that?

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just make it a mini expansion land based zeros or oscars , allies get corsairs (a considerable amount were land based), a map that is 80% water with some moutainous islands and we are good for a mini expansion. can throw in a light or escort carrier with wildcats eventually as paid collector (which maybe will build the base for eventual fleet carriers for a bonidife full expansion) and it is all good 

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2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

I can think of several words that would have been used, including "meatballs" among others including "Zero" since

Allied pilots used the term liberally to describe Japanese fighters at the time.

 

Evidently the association of 'Zero' with the A6M was frequent enough for official government directives (the one I'm referencing is from December '42) to use it.

 

Here's a fragment of the notice:

 

"The Zero fighter, because of its low wing loading, has superior maneuverability to all our present service type aircraft. It is necessary to maintain a speed of over 300 MPH (260 knots) indicated to successfully combat this airplane. Never attempt to dogfight the Zero. Never maneuver with the Zero at speeds below 300 MPH indicated, unless directly behind it. Never follow a Zero into a climb at slow speeds. Service types will stall out at the steep angle where the Zero has reached its most maneuverable speed."

 

So from that we can infer either the government all but officially used the term itself, or it was so popularly used by pilots that certain government communications just went along with it.

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I mean, we've already got an early ish-P-40 (which fought in the pacific). I'm sure with some tweaks producing an early P-38 isn't impossible, They could try and port the Wildcat from Tobruk without too much difficulty. the A-20 was around in 42' (and we have an early one) 

 

so that leaves Dauntless, Val, and a couple of 1942 torpedo bombers. I know flight models are hard...but i'd take simulated wind tunnel data for the more obscure Japanese planes, and air spawns to simulate carriers sitting outside of the map for the time being. it's better than nothing  

 

 

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Enceladus
3 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

They could try and port the Wildcat from Tobruk without too much difficulty

No, that is not going to happen because both games have two completely different game engines. It would be like trying to port something from IL-2 1946 into Rise of Flight.

 

Sorry.

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AEthelraedUnraed
On 10/18/2021 at 10:59 PM, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Why do you guys refer to the A6M as Zero and not Zeke while calling the Hayabusa Oscar?

I just want to chime in that Zero isn't a Japanese name either. The Japanese called it the Rei-sen :)

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Luftschiff

národní hymna Vyměnitelný Vymýtit buffalo brewster f3 finland efektivně  aktivace prohlásit

 

The littlest plane that could, surely the most requested, right?

 

Gimme Finland!

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Alexmarine
11 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I just want to chime in that Zero isn't a Japanese name either. The Japanese called it the Rei-sen :)

Rei and Zero are interchangeable readings of the same character. Reading it as Zero-sen is actually preferred unless the full plane designation is used

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Noisemaker
On 10/18/2021 at 10:59 PM, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Why do you guys refer to the A6M as Zero and not Zeke while calling the Hayabusa Oscar? 

 

Hayabusa is such a beautiful Name. Oscar is such an ugly Name. Sounds like Thomas the Tank Engines grey, librarian Brother.

Hey man, don't be such a grouch.  Oscar's alright.  If you don't believe me, I can tell you how to get to Sesame Street, and you can meet him yourself.

;)

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6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann
6 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

Hey man, don't be such a grouch.  Oscar's alright.  If you don't believe me, I can tell you how to get to Sesame Street, and you can meet him yourself.

;)

Oskar is my Spirit Animal. It's Trash can, not Trash can't.

 

Ki-43 ain't trash doe'.

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18 hours ago, Enceladus said:

No, that is not going to happen because both games have two completely different game engines. It would be like trying to port something from IL-2 1946 into Rise of Flight.

 

Sorry.

well at least there's a model out there 

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Wouldn't a "don't want it" thread be easier so we know what planes wouldn't have been mentioned as a want it?

 

My want it is a BV141, but no-one else wants it 😞

 

 

Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1980-117-01,_Aufklärungsflugzeug_Blohm_-_Voß_BV_141.jpg

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=SqSq=Sulaco

Probably not a popular opinion but aside from the Pacific theatre, I'd love to see a pack with a focus on larger bombers, Lancasters, B-24's, B-17's. I know the engine isn't designed for those big guys but I think it would make for a totally original direction.

Edited by =SqSq=Sulaco
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