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jaydee

Lets talk Money and Sims !

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Hi all ! How many times have we heard from Simmers,"Ive Spent 50 bucks, so I Demand "this and that". I want it NOW !...Like Spoilt Kids "Are we there Yet ? Are we there yet ?".

Flight Simmers are a very demanding bunch of "Experts" !

Do you see Microsoft or Sony" for example" trying to Capture the  "Lucrative" Flight Sim Market ?

How many times have you seen a Flight Sim in Steams monthly "Best Sellers" ?

Think about this. If you wanted to get "Rich' in 2014,would you choose to do it by making the best WW2 Flight Sim ?...Everyones gone Quiet !

I often have to "Explain" to people what I do when I Sim !...Some have said "Can I join on Facebook". Doh.

My whole Point is this Lads.,,Like any Minority Group ,WE have an Unusual Hobby that rest of the world doesn't understand or give "a rats' about.

In My opinion, If Simming is to survive, We Must Pay a lot more simply because the Market is just not there for any Buissness  to "hope to make a Profit" from our $50....If they had 1 millon that subscribe,yeah !...With Us,they are doing well to get 5k.

Last Friday I got a Pizza and Garlic Bread and Coke.(for 2) It cost me $32...Five minutes of Pleasure (food).

I paid 90 bucks for COD. Ive flown nearly 1000 hours so far.

I paid 40 bucks for IL2 46 and probably got 10000  hours out of it.

And some people "Whinge" about the money. "90 Bucks is Too Much ".

~s~

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I agree that the price really is nothing compared to the countless hours of entertainment. Even considering the cost of extra hardware, it's not that much. But for a "casual" gamer, anything more expensive than "free" is close to a dealbreaker, and casual gamers make up a larger and larger percentage of the market.

 

I'm not really sure I'd want someone trying to get rich by making flight sims. If making money is is your only motivation, you're better off making a casual game.  

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Making Money IS what makes Industry elements ( studios ) to survive and evolve and project new products. ( best to all 777/1CGS...give us many more products please... )

 

Gaming Industry is all about wide audience and specific niches and those translate into more or way less money BUT the technicalities behind the projects might actually be similar and the development phase costs be roughly equal given the same time frame for production.

 

Simulator genre has an added difficulty. The good ones have to develop their own game engine from the ground up instead of building over some framework like many Wide audience games.

 

As it stands for BoS, ~40€ and ~80€ is quite good. A solid investment in a well tested product and carrying the credibility of the studios behind.

 

Again, making money making a good product is good business.

 

Sadly many are making money with bad products. Rest assured, credibility levels last more than any money they make.

 

But... simmers are sometimes too eager to show off their expertise that is a funny fact, whether they are correct or not.

 

I find it very entertaining and many times ( thanks! ) very informative.

Edited by =LD=Hethwill_Khan

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Again, making money making a good product is good business.

 

 

Sure enough, but it's not bound to make you rich. People more often get rich by selling an inferior product at an elevated price.

 

That's why I want flight sim developers to be almost as dedicated to their product as to making money. Sure enough, the devs have to eat and 777/1C has to turn some kind of profit. But if profit was their sole motivation, they wouldn't be making BoS. They would be developing some WT-clone that you can play on any mobile platform.

 

I'm thankful that there are dedicated developers out there, who will not go for the easy money, but will try to satisfy a dedicated and often whiney group of enthusiasts.

Edited by Finkeren
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I do even worse - spend the money and then end up trashing my sims.... when I find that they're not up to my standards.

 

Strangely, IL2, and now ROF, became a remarkable exception, but I agree with teh OP, and sometimes when looking to what I have payed for family dinner, I think about the many hours of pleasure

that a given sim or add-on has given me for that same amount.

 

My other problem is time, age and too many things to do... I became rather selective, and for instance now I am fully dedicated to IL2 BoS and RoF. Not that I don't like DCS, but it's different, with too many aircraft that do not interest me ( modern fighters with their sophisticated arms )...

 

I really look forward to spend my time and simmer cash on add-ons for IL2 Bos and, who knows, future new products for RoF or any derivate...

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I doubt it, we will most likely remain a niche. I have no problem with that :)

 

Why?  Flight sims require a LOT of work if they're done right.  It's far easier to cater to the lowest common denominator and just made an arcade flight game, or something like Call of Duty that you can release year after year.

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I drove 20 000 miles in my Ferrari, doesn't mean its cheap to buy.

 

 

In all seriousness, its pointless to go over this debate again. 90-100 bucks for a game IS expensive no matter how you cut it, the most expensive basic/first release game ever as far as i know. "Blaming" niche market wont take that fact away.

 

Value per buck is another thing all together.

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Welcome to the same conversation we've had a thousand times over a thousand threads over the last 18 years going back to at least Janes F15.

Yes, given what they deliver, flight sims could/should demand a higher price. That's why I didn't blink at $94.

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With the internet an attitude than anything should be basically free or cost almost nothing has crept into parts of the society.

 

One guy to his friends: "Oh, hey, there's a new movie out on dvd. Let's watch it. I know a site where I can download it for free."

 

A student to a fellow student: "I recommend you this book for exam preparation. Here you can download it for free."

 

During a discussion at dinner table: "Of course I download music from pirate sites. These big music companies are anyway so rich and exploiting us customers!"

 

And don't dare to explain them that by paying the music title or buying the book in a store or by renting/buying the dvd you also pay the artists, the employees from the head of department to the clerk/secretary and the cleaner. That with buying the dvd you also pay the salary of all those people whose names you read in the end credits of movies. 

 

Don't dare to mention that if everything is pirated and these companies no longer do profit nobody will invest any more in making movies, music or writing a book. 

 

Don't dare to ask them if they think it is ok to go to the next supermarket, take something they want and then leave without paying.

Edited by sturmkraehe

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All i know is, is that I've spent much less over the last 10 years on my hobby of flight simming, including computers, gfx cards, flight hotas equipment, track ir and the games, than a friend of mine who plays golf as his hobby.

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And all the pheripherals are 5 times as expensive as the actual game. So for me the "only" 90 bucks are very well spent considering it gives me fun for the next couple years.

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I see these kind of posts over on various forums lately. I find it rude really for some people to think they should preach to others what and how they should value their hard earned cash. Those 100$ are different value for each and every one of us here, and we are the ones considering game worth it with most of us having bought game already. So what is the end goal of this topic again?

 

Where does that need to justify money you spent come from really? I ask because you're not exception, I've been reading this kind of argument over and over since this whole new trend of buying into alphas started.

 

In fact, I am starting to believe that it's people starting these kind of treads that actually have some kind of regrets or doubts about their purchase, because the rest of us just pay for what we find worth it and move on never mentioning it. Just like any other purchase in life, I buy what I think is worth buying for the price asked, if I think is too much, I just wait for discount or skip it all together.

 

Compared to my other hobbies, I'd count this one among cheap ones, yet I still don't want to be that sheep paying 3 times over the normal industry game price to get to play unfinished buggy half products (looking at 240€ asked to Elite Dangerous and ridiculous amount of money people throw into Star Citizen, seems to be some new trend I will personally avoid regardless of the fact I can afford it). Why stop at games then? Everything human made is quite an effort, go and pay unfinished projects all over the world and stop only when you can't afford your "Five minutes of Pleasure (food)" any longer.

 

But as a fellow simmer that find that kind of money ok if the game is good, let me pat you on the back: - "It's ok mate, no worries, those are 100 bucks well spent".

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to put it in a little context.  The first flight sim I bought was dyanmix Red Baron.  It cost $50US in 1993.  I just ran that through an inflation calculator and it comes out to $82 and change in 2014 dollars.  So, considering how much more that has to be put into a game today than then, $90 sounds like a pretty good deal.

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I see these kind of posts over on various forums lately. I find it rude really for some people to think they should preach to others what and how they should value their hard earned cash. Those 100$ are different value for each and every one of us here, and we are the ones considering game worth it with most of us having bought game already. So what is the end goal of this topic again?

 

Where does that need to justify money you spent come from really? I ask because you're not exception, I've been reading this kind of argument over and over since this whole new trend of buying into alphas started.

 

In fact, I am starting to believe that it's people starting these kind of treads that actually have some kind of regrets or doubts about their purchase, because the rest of us just pay for what we find worth it and move on never mentioning it. Just like any other purchase in life, I buy what I think is worth buying for the price asked, if I think is too much, I just wait for discount or skip it all together.

 

Compared to my other hobbies, I'd count this one among cheap ones, yet I still don't want to be that sheep paying 3 times over the normal industry game price to get to play unfinished buggy half products (looking at 240€ asked to Elite Dangerous and ridiculous amount of money people throw into Star Citizen, seems to be some new trend I will personally avoid regardless of the fact I can afford it). Why stop at games then? Everything human made is quite an effort, go and pay unfinished projects all over the world and stop only when you can't afford your "Five minutes of Pleasure (food)" any longer.

 

But as a fellow simmer that find that kind of money ok if the game is good, let me pat you on the back: - "It's ok mate, no worries, those are 100 bucks well spent".

 

Well, you hear much less complaints about a Ferrari to be too expensive. I understand that 100 bucks is a lot for a lot of people. The price is fixed according to the development costs + a small profit then devided by an estimate of purchasers. That's how free market works. There is no human right for a price everybody (really everybody) can afford in order to put it bluntly. The devs here definitely won't get rich (contrary to the owner of the Ferrari company).

Edited by sturmkraehe

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Well, you hear much less complaints about a Ferrari to be too expensive. I understand that 100 bucks is a lot for a lot of people. The price is fixed according to the development costs + a small profit then devided by an estimate of purchasers. That's how free market works. There is no human right for a price everybody (really everybody) can afford in order to put it bluntly. The devs here definitely won't get rich (contrary to the owner of the Ferrari company).

 

You missed my point. It has nothing to do with money Devs will make, but it has everything to do with difference every one of us expects to get when they spend 100$. I find it a bit rude to imply I know best if this game is worth this much or not and to tell others what they should and should not expect from the game. Especially not in a way where anyone making reasonable demand or criticism is labeled "Spoilt Kids (OP)".

 

And yet threads like these usually end up trash talking and discrediting people that have different expectations then OP's and like minded people involved (not everyone of course, but too often too many). 

 

Some of the things we buy for 100$ are well worth it, some are not. IL2:BOS still have to prove to me that my investment was a good one. So far so good, I am very happy about it, but this is far from what I expect for my money when game goes gold (and more money I am planning to pay later should they deliver fine product with lots of new content over time).

 

As for BOS developers, I have no idea if they will get rich or not, as a fellow software engineer I wish them all the best to make great products and get rich if they can in the process. While they are still young if I may add, so they can enjoy that Ferrari should they decide to buy one :).

 

P.S. I can't afford Ferrari without sacrificing too much of life quality for my family, but even if I could, I'd still find better use for that money. And yet I would not call Ferrari buyer dumb for spending on the car same as I don't want him to call me that for not being willing to do just that. Hope you get the punchline here.

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Kinda preaching to the wrong choir I think. I'd wager at least 90% here, have been around a long time simming. A long time in internet years anyway. And a good share of us gladly just paid more than $50 for BoS. I'd do it again too based on what I've seen so far when/if 777 does this again. So, I don't think we need to convince anyone here to pony up. It would be something if we could each introduce one or two people to flight sims, but honestly in the 25+ years I've flown these games, I've only known three others personally who also simmed.

 

Whether or not $100 is too much or not enough to spend on a sim, I guess it's how you approach it. I sure wouldn't do it if it meant the kids going hungry or missing the house payment. But if I could scrape up a hundred bucks even over the course of a month or two, to me it's money well spent. I think if we were each truthful with ourselves, we likely waste that much money in other ways every month or two. It's all in what each of us wants. 

Edited by Rjel

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to my mind, if you can't bother to update your engine to modern standards, you don't deserve my money, not only is it bad for performance, it limits the possibilities and potential of what your sim can do. some sims that won't be named are running on a literally 2 decade old engine. and they dare charge 50 dollars per plane on that engine. that is bollocks.

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I see these kind of posts over on various forums lately. I find it rude really for some people to think they should preach to others what and how they should value their hard earned cash. Those 100$ are different value for each and every one of us here, and we are the ones considering game worth it with most of us having bought game already. So what is the end goal of this topic again?

 

Where does that need to justify money you spent come from really? I ask because you're not exception, I've been reading this kind of argument over and over since this whole new trend of buying into alphas started.

 

In fact, I am starting to believe that it's people starting these kind of treads that actually have some kind of regrets or doubts about their purchase, because the rest of us just pay for what we find worth it and move on never mentioning it. Just like any other purchase in life, I buy what I think is worth buying for the price asked, if I think is too much, I just wait for discount or skip it all together.

 

Compared to my other hobbies, I'd count this one among cheap ones, yet I still don't want to be that sheep paying 3 times over the normal industry game price to get to play unfinished buggy half products (looking at 240€ asked to Elite Dangerous and ridiculous amount of money people throw into Star Citizen, seems to be some new trend I will personally avoid regardless of the fact I can afford it). Why stop at games then? Everything human made is quite an effort, go and pay unfinished projects all over the world and stop only when you can't afford your "Five minutes of Pleasure (food)" any longer.

 

But as a fellow simmer that find that kind of money ok if the game is good, let me pat you on the back: - "It's ok mate, no worries, those are 100 bucks well spent".

Hi Cyclops, first off If I can respond to this statement by you :"In fact, I am starting to believe that it's people starting these kind of treads that actually have some kind of regrets or doubts about their purchase"...Ive purchased most Sims that have been released and I don't Regret any of those Purchases...Doesn't mean I Fly them.

As for this statement by you :"yet I still don't want to be that sheep paying 3 times over the normal industry game price to get to play unfinished buggy half products"..

I will be a Sheep and( Pay for the Sim before it released) with all its Bugs.

I tell you what Cyclops,you go and save your precious Money,wait for a Sim to be released without any Bugs . Don't hold your Breath.

My whole point of this Thread is "The Value for Money" we get as Simmers from our initial "Cash Outlay" is astounding....Ive gotten Ten years out of IL2...3 years from CLOD..

Cylops,I am Sure you have Watch_dogs on youre  Pc...Hows it running on your rig ?..I think there may be  a Patch soon (to remove Bugs)..

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to my mind, if you can't bother to update your engine to modern standards, you don't deserve my money, not only is it bad for performance, it limits the possibilities and potential of what your sim can do. some sims that won't be named are running on a literally 2 decade old engine. and they dare charge 50 dollars per plane on that engine. that is bollocks.

 

 

I agree with this. That's why I'm not excited at all about the next installment. But I have to say, this one turns into something not worth my money as well. :(

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IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover is a crazy story. It was probably a total bust as far as a money maker and also I think the first out of the box reviews were about 4/10 but now I would give it a 7.5/10 coming up and up in the future because of the Mediterranean arena by Team Fusion. It's unfair really to read the old reviews on Amazon or Ebay.

 

Edited by II./JG27_Rich

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Have to agree with Cyclops here.  My own observation is that core simmers get cranky when the creative vision of development looks toward more casual gaming.  I'm willing to pay handsomely if I like what I see, but I don't buy things out of a sense of charity.  Impress me.

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Not buying a game because it's dated tech, versus buying everything to support the genre, supports the genre more IMO. It rewards originality and progressiveness. And if we don't have those things then we're simply paying for the same thing over and over again. But everyone treats their money different.  

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Not buying a game because it's dated tech, versus buying everything to support the genre, supports the genre more IMO. It rewards originality and progressiveness. And if we don't have those things then we're simply paying for the same thing over and over again. But everyone treats their money different.  

 

The problem in this is that if flight sim A is financial failure, it will be that much more difficult to get financing for the next product. I don't think that many investors expect to get rich by fight sims, but I am sure that none will finance any product that they don't expect to get at least their money back. This "impress me"-attitude has unfortunate effect of showing investors that people are not buying those products, so there is no reason to finance them.

 

I would say, off the top of my head, that to develop a flight sim you will need at least about ten people working for a year or more likely two. And someone has to pay for that.

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I'm not sure it's an 'impress me' attitude so much as a yearning for a new type of flight sim. It seems we are now up to three games built on essentially the same game engine that is more than five years old. The models are beautiful, but new cockpits and FMs designed around the same experience just isn't my thing. And I want it to be, but it just isn't. I want to play something truely different. And I just don't see how supporting something I don't really have any desire to play will somehow get me the game I do want down the line.            

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plz mods if this is inappropiate act accordingly:

 

the old il2 follow a tactic to get more numbers online:

 

allow pirates to fly online

 

i think to recall 80 percent of people flying online where pirates

 

just think the 1000 players of il2 46 vs the 150 of cod online

 

the 50 offset is due to those who bought it for the big numbers online

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I drove 20 000 miles in my Ferrari, doesn't mean its cheap to buy.

 

 

In all seriousness, its pointless to go over this debate again. 90-100 bucks for a game IS expensive no matter how you cut it, the most expensive basic/first release game ever as far as i know. "Blaming" niche market wont take that fact away.

 

Value per buck is another thing all together.

If I remember correctly, Star Citizen has a $15,000 buy in option. After looking, it seems they "sold out" of that particular package, but the $10,000 option is still available. https://robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/multi-ship-packages?sortBy=price

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