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Major airplane spotting issues


=FI=Nix_
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=FI=Nix_

Hi everyone,
I will try to keep it simple: I can't spot enemy/friendly airplanes in the air, unless they come really, really close.

 

I've been flying combat flight sims since 2008 now (IL-2 1946, DCS), and I've noticed that I am having major issues spotting other airplanes in GB. I seem to spot them very, very late and 9 out of 10 fights I end up being jumped from behind, or I just wait until someone shows up on my six. I have also tried flying with a wing man and there too I have noticed that he sees aircraft well before I do. We are looking at the same patch of the sky, but I am blind as a bat. I actually had my eyes checked, just in case but that seems to not be the issue.

 

I've also noticed that not only do the enemies jump on my 6, but I also get engaged from the front in head-on passes which means that the enemy must have seen me and was able to identify me as foe, while I notice them only shortly before they pass or I see tracers.

I am hoping someone could help me out in tweaking my sim in order to see better.

 

My rig:
i5 4690K @4.2GHz

Z97 Pro Gamer

24GB DDR3

NVIDIA GTX 1660 Super

EVO SSD 1TB

LG IPS225 Monitor

 

My game graphics settings:

 

 

 

2021_5_16__13_4_0.jpg

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jollyjack

I run at higher specs, i7, i see them, but i have the feeling that somewhere after game 4.501 behavior of the arrows has changed, they disappear while the enemy is still there.

Besides the color fade in properties of the friends and foes coming in closer.

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J2_Bidu

Run one of those monitor contrast tests. Make sure you actually see all those shades of grey (movie pun not intended).

 

What about in real life? Do you easily spot birds and planes against the sky, for instance? I know I certainly do much more since I started playing the game.

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FTC_DerSheriff
2 minutes ago, jollyjack said:

I run at higher specs, i7, i see them, but i have the feeling that somewhere after game 4.501 behavior of the arrows has changed, they disappear while the enemy is still there.

Besides the color fade in properties of the friends and foes coming in closer.

i would guess he meant non marker difficulty settings....

 

 

I would recommend to set the anti aliasing to 4 since i gave me much better results and clearer objects. The 1660 is strong enough for that.

Also calibrate your screen with the windows color management. Make sure you get good contrast.

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JG7_X-Man
Posted (edited)

@=FI=Nix_ You know your eyes might be part of the problem too. :blush: When was the last time you had an eye checkup in the 13 yrs you have been playing? Are you sure you don't need glasses? I am being serious - over the years my eyesight has gone from kind of OK to kind of bad - so I need reading glasses to play now, even though I have 20/20 vision. 

Edited by JG7_X-Man
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pocketshaver

The arrows DO get wonky at times, if i have a plane slowly spiralling down into the ground, and if i have gotten the "look for next enemy message", the arrows will either point to the spawn point itself, or to the plane thats been listed as dead until it smacks the ground in a fireball

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[DBS]TH0R

While spotting has become much better over the years, and especially since few patches ago when the biggest change was made - there is still discrepancy between VR users and desktop users. VR guys can often spot much further, whilst desktop guys can ID much easier.

 

Hoping this can be leveled in the near future as the VR guys hold the advantage here.

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ITAF_Airone1989
11 minutes ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

While spotting has become much better over the years, and especially since few patches ago when the biggest change was made - there is still discrepancy between VR users and desktop users. VR guys can often spot much further, whilst desktop guys can ID much easier.

 

Hoping this can be leveled in the near future as the VR guys hold the advantage here.

Not my experience. In the last period I had some problem with the VR, so I alternate both for a couple of months.

Flying with my teammates I saw that the spotting between VR and desktop are pretty the same (or related to others setting, cause somebody is blind and somebody else have the radar), while the ID is much much easier for who use the monitor.

The big advantage that personally have using the VR is the accuracy!

 

(But considering the VR ID difficulties, this mean that sometime I chose the wrong target 😁)

 

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[DBS]TH0R
Posted (edited)

I've yet to come across a VR user who doesn't out spot us "dinosaurs" on desktop. That being said, I have not tried IL-2 in VR yet so this is just my experience from flying online with different people who do use it.

Edited by [DBS]TH0R
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JG1_loopy

@=FI=Nix_  I have the same issue similar system

4790k

500g ssd

16G ram

msi 1080

 

Flew with a friend to test both had auto pilot on, had a diverging course of 60 degrees, in nomal view he was just a speck before disappearing in front of my eyes he could see me clearly as a plane not just a speck.

Went to full zoom again just a speck before he disappeared, he could still see me clearly this was against a clear blue sky.

As for people spotting planes i have the same issue if they are attacking i have to follow until they come into view, this is a massive disadvantage in multiplayer.

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Mollotin

large monitor helps.

i have 40" monitor.

if i try IL2 with a 24" monitor i feel blind.

 

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=FI=Nix_
11 minutes ago, Mollotin said:

large monitor helps.

i have 40" monitor.

if i try IL2 with a 24" monitor i feel blind.

 

I am starting to think that monitor size plays a significant role. The friend I flew with is using a TV, to display his IL-2.
I have no problem identifying an airplane, but spotting it is next to impossible. Even when I find a spec, it disappears rather quickly.

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[DBS]TH0R

Not so much a monitor size, but pixel pitch value i.e. pixel size. It definitely helps. Those like me, running 27" with 1440p have it the worst of both worlds.

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[CPT]Crunch
2 hours ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

I've yet to come across a VR user who doesn't out spot us "dinosaurs" on desktop. That being said, I have not tried IL-2 in VR yet so this is just my experience from flying online with different people who do use it.

You haven't run into a Samsung user with an AMD card.  Even VR is relative to equipment.

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=VARP=Ribbon
20 hours ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

I've yet to come across a VR user who doesn't out spot us "dinosaurs" on desktop. That being said, I have not tried IL-2 in VR yet so this is just my experience from flying online with different people who do use it.

Majority of guys in VARP usually spot contacts way before me and i run reverb g2 on ultra settings (i7 10700k, rtx3080 OC).....same was on rift s, maybe a bit better due to lower resolution.

I would say immersion and gunnery is only advantage VR has while ID-ing and checking six is big disadvantage.

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Posted (edited)

I can see an airplane in the game from a very long distance when I know exactly where to look. For instance, if I let plane fly off into the distance using the F11 key, I can easily track it whether it’s against the sky or ground to what I would imagine to be a realistic real life distance. If I put the plane on auto pilot, I can see it makes its turn a considerable distance away. However, while flying it’s nearly impossible for me see an enemy plane under similar circumstances. Not sure of the reason other than my spotting skills are poor. 

Edited by Rjel
Posting from my phone never works well....
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JG7_X-Man
Posted (edited)

I disagree with the idea that people that fly in VR have an advantage over those of us on monitors. 

  1. With TrackIR and a monitor, you have a wider field of vison
  2. With TrackIR and a monitor you don't have tunnel vision
  3. With the correct resolution setting for your monitor & videocard - your monitor can do the job a tad better with the pixel sizes than VR.

AT the end of the day - it's all bout your hardware and how much you are willing to spend.

On 5/16/2021 at 4:05 PM, =FI=Nix_ said:

I am starting to think that monitor size plays a significant role. The friend I flew with is using a TV, to display his IL-2.
I have no problem identifying an airplane, but spotting it is next to impossible. Even when I find a spec, it disappears rather quickly.

 It does not - I use to game on a 55" LG OLED 55B7A and it depends on your eyesight and how close you are to the TV. When I upgrade, it's now like night and day with my current setup. 49" Ultra Wide Screen.

Edited by JG7_X-Man
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cellinsky
Posted (edited)

I have used TIR and Monitor for ages and now fly with a wide-fov headset .170 degrees, very sharp and super immersive. I can tell you, that TIR and Monitor feels like cheating to me: In vr spotting without labels is very hard and identifying even harder at distance. Close up, its ok. Tracking the plane is like real live and limited to your physical ability to bend your neck (and stay there). No easy wonder-woman-view in vr. Even zooming in and out makes one sick very quick. I dont see any advantage in a combat situation for us vr users. Also not against the KI.

Edited by cellinsky
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blue_max

I love flying in VR but when dogfighting in MP servers with no labels, I'm usually just randomly chasing an unidentifiable black dot. With luck I'll be able to tell friend or foe before I shoot. Basically blind as a bat in VR but still loving the immersion of it.

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JG700_Benek

Hello,

 

disable target FPS and VSync in  game and enable vsync in nvidia control panel, set msaa to 8x to see if helps, enable full screen ingmae then right click il2.exe in game folder click properities > compatibility and uncheck full screen optimization, in game in camera settings disable cinematic if enabled and try setting smoothness to 20 also is worth taking a look at ur monitor generally it can be to bright or set to wrong gamma.

 

Try getting nvidia driver 466.11 they run good and are fixing washed out colours on same panels in Windows (you may need to delete any colour profile attached to your display)

 

Here are my detailed settings so you can check if they help you:

 

 

You good to go fo MP when you login to  Berloga DF server chose further spawn point and upon spawn be able to see spawning enemies.

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41Sqn_Riksen
On 5/16/2021 at 4:05 PM, =FI=Nix_ said:

I am starting to think that monitor size plays a significant role. The friend I flew with is using a TV, to display his IL-2.
I have no problem identifying an airplane, but spotting it is next to impossible. Even when I find a spec, it disappears rather quickly.

 

I does for sure. Dont listen to @JG7_X-Manhe is blind as a bat lol. Monitor size and setup help a lot but he is right too ... Some people have a harder time spotting than others and that might be something intrinsic to them ... Eye sight, spacial perception, lightning, etc.

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[DBS]TH0R
Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, JG7_X-Man said:

 It does not - I use to game on a 55" LG OLED 55B7A and it depends on your eyesight and how close you are to the TV. When I upgrade, it's now like night and day with my current setup. 49" Ultra Wide Screen.

 

It absolutely does matter. Higher diagonal size for the same resolution = bigger dot pitch value / size. Hell, even on your 4K 55" LG screen you have a greater pixel pitch (0.2892 mm) vs. my 1440p 27" monitor (0.2335 mm).

 

Thats a huge difference btw.!

There are other downsides with gaming on a TV that may have led you to the conclusion an ultrawide monitor is better. Stuff like picture processing and often much higher input lag help with movie watching but not with gaming. Quite the opposite...

Edited by [DBS]TH0R
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=FI=Nix_

Ah

11 hours ago, JG700_Benek said:

Hello,

 

disable target FPS and VSync in  game and enable vsync in nvidia control panel, set msaa to 8x to see if helps, enable full screen ingmae then right click il2.exe in game folder click properities > compatibility and uncheck full screen optimization, in game in camera settings disable cinematic if enabled and try setting smoothness to 20 also is worth taking a look at ur monitor generally it can be to bright or set to wrong gamma.

 

Try getting nvidia driver 466.11 they run good and are fixing washed out colours on same panels in Windows (you may need to delete any colour profile attached to your display)

 

Here are my detailed settings so you can check if they help you:

 

 

You good to go fo MP when you login to  Berloga DF server chose further spawn point and upon spawn be able to see spawning enemies.

Ahahahahahahahahhaha @JG700_Benek,
I followed your instructions and I mean: "Wow!". I can see everything now it seems. Dots are left, right and center now compared to seeing almost nothing.
You post should not be pinned, but it should be printed out on the instructions. What a difference. Shame on all of you that suggested I need to check my eyes. I can't believe that difference between life and death in this game depends on knowing how to hack the settings. You can check these two photos and see what kind of huge difference this makes (same server btw - Berloga).

Thank you very, very much!!!

 

after.jpg

before.jpg

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JG7_X-Man
On 5/18/2021 at 1:27 PM, [DBS]TH0R said:

 

It absolutely does matter. Higher diagonal size for the same resolution = bigger dot pitch value / size. Hell, even on your 4K 55" LG screen you have a greater pixel pitch (0.2892 mm) vs. my 1440p 27" monitor (0.2335 mm).

 

Thats a huge difference btw.!

There are other downsides with gaming on a TV that may have led you to the conclusion an ultrawide monitor is better. Stuff like picture processing and often much higher input lag help with movie watching but not with gaming. Quite the opposite...

 

Yeah 0.0557mm or 0.002 inches isn't much larger when you sit 6ft+ away from the TV. Trust me.

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[DBS]TH0R
Posted (edited)
On 5/20/2021 at 12:53 AM, JG7_X-Man said:

 

Yeah 0.0557mm or 0.002 inches isn't much larger when you sit 6ft+ away from the TV. Trust me.

 

I don't trust you. The difference is small, but for the purposes of monitor and spotting - large. Especially reading text on scaling set to 100%, i.e. default. :)

Edited by [DBS]TH0R
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Jeroen-
On 5/18/2021 at 11:58 AM, JG700_Benek said:

Hello,

 

disable target FPS and VSync in  game and enable vsync in nvidia control panel, set msaa to 8x to see if helps, enable full screen ingmae then right click il2.exe in game folder click properities > compatibility and uncheck full screen optimization, in game in camera settings disable cinematic if enabled and try setting smoothness to 20 also is worth taking a look at ur monitor generally it can be to bright or set to wrong gamma.

 

Try getting nvidia driver 466.11 they run good and are fixing washed out colours on same panels in Windows (you may need to delete any colour profile attached to your display)

 

Here are my detailed settings so you can check if they help you:

 

 

Wow... I don't know which exact setting made the huge difference. But the difference for me is like day and night. Thanks a lot!

Just suddenly seeing all the stuff that happens around me real time instead of afterwards via tacview is amazing!!

 

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JG700_Benek
7 hours ago, Jeroen- said:

Wow... I don't know which exact setting

 

 I dont know either 😄 glad to help though we need more ppl to MP. As for settings most are good for getting smoothest gameplay possible I suppose 8xMSAA is the key NVCP changes are just good for gaming maybe Antialising  - gamma correction helps coz it should make aliased parts darker so it should help with dots.

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FTC_DerSheriff
On 5/18/2021 at 11:08 PM, =FI=Nix_ said:

Ah

Ahahahahahahahahhaha @JG700_Benek,
I followed your instructions and I mean: "Wow!". I can see everything now it seems. Dots are left, right and center now compared to seeing almost nothing.
You post should not be pinned, but it should be printed out on the instructions. What a difference. Shame on all of you that suggested I need to check my eyes. I can't believe that difference between life and death in this game depends on knowing how to hack the settings. You can check these two photos and see what kind of huge difference this makes (same server btw - Berloga).

Thank you very, very much!!!

 

after.jpg

before.jpg


looks like this is on Berloga. Remember that Berloga has alternate spotting rendnering aircraft larger than on other expert servers.

 

Also I switched to VR recently and can spot equally good or sometimes better than my 2D friends. There are circumstances where my mates see stuff earlier... but this was also the case when I was on 2D. Sometimes your own position makes spotting harder than for the guy 200m next to you.

But within...4km or so I can see enemies so much better. Just better sizing of the aircraft makes close range detection easier. I recently spotted a raid from 15-20km, because I have seen multiple aircrafts reflections (they flickered) against darker background. I had the sun in my back and the enemies were against dark sky.

I recently switched to 2D just for testing and felt trapped and detached from the action. I much prefer VR for combat SA.

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[DBS]TH0R
Posted (edited)
On 5/22/2021 at 8:30 AM, JG700_Benek said:

 

 I dont know either 😄 glad to help though we need more ppl to MP. As for settings most are good for getting smoothest gameplay possible I suppose 8xMSAA is the key NVCP changes are just good for gaming maybe Antialising  - gamma correction helps coz it should make aliased parts darker so it should help with dots.

 

I would advise not using gamma correction, and instead allowing the game to control color and lighting entirely. I've turned off all settings affecting color and light in my flight sims and they never looked better.

 

Hardly any game today needs gamma correction = ON. To my eyes the lightning looks better and the overall contrast is higher with it off. IIRC it is on by default.

Edited by [DBS]TH0R
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JG700_Benek
6 hours ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

I would advise not using gamma correction

 

In the post you quoted there is a link to my nvcp settings and u can see there that gamma correction for antialising is off exactly to make dots as dark as possible (if its working not sure of that). 

 

On 5/27/2021 at 10:53 AM, ACG_DerSheriff said:

Remember that Berloga has alternate spotting rendnering aircraft larger than on other expert servers.

 

That is not true Berloga atm is normal spoting.

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LColony_Red_Comet

The game still has major spotting problems even after the most recent changes. Those changes were very welcome and the greatly fixed much of the contact sizing issues, but the issue that still remains is a contrast one.

 

The issue is cause by two things, broadly speaking. One is that this game just like any other lacks a color spectrum equivalent to reality, and there are also many differences between lighting etc. The other is how aliasing affects contrast. Objects, even the newly scaled up ones, are represented by an arrangement dot pixels or dots. Small contacts more than 1km away at tactically useful fields of view contain so few dots that they blend in.

 

vbSdZVe.png

 

ziZ7hE5.png

 

As you can see in these images, the game attempts to duplicate the color of the contact as closely as possible. Each dot being shaded according to what is presumably the most representative color of the 3d object that can be shown by that dot. Due to the low resolution however, this reduces the definition of the contact and it blends into the background far more easily. Its apparent size also decreases. This happens because the background pixels more completely interface with the pixels that represent the object, in some cases being almost the same color when it would not be the case with a more defined object. For example, these highly pixelated objects allow for a single square to be surrounded on 3 sides by background color squares, making it harder to distinguish. Far harder to distinguish if the object was more defined.

 

The solution to this is to shade the colors of objects with a bias that shifts their color relative to the background more extremely than an attempt at one to one would achieve. This compensates both for the limited color space and for the low resolution pixelation issues.

 

For example D6JUsG8.png

 

 

This screenshot shows the contacts in game without changes, the second shot shows contacts after I used paint to bias the colors darker.

 

ARyNwt5.jpeg

5dfdk1x.jpeg

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JG7_X-Man
Posted (edited)
On 5/21/2021 at 2:30 PM, [DBS]TH0R said:

 

I don't trust you. The difference is small, but for the purposes of monitor and spotting - large. Especially reading text on scaling set to 100%, i.e. default. :)

 

Since I that made the transition for 55" OLED TV to 49" QLED Gaming Monitor, I am saying that that the difference is substantial between both monitors.

Unless you have both monitors as well, you are only making an anecdotal argument.

 

The distance you sit from your monitor is a major factor in spotting targets as does ones eye site.

However, sitting 3ft away from a 49" monitor is better than sitting 6ft away from a 55" monitor.

 

Just don't take my word for it, a light read below:

https://www.esportstales.com/tech-tips/ideal-distance-to-sit-away-from-your-monitor

 

Key take away - if you want to spot better, you need to as close the minimum distance below based on your monitor size.

With the cavate that your settings and system specs are optimal.

 

 

image.png.99f6b6fab6ae43f9c9a2070ee364ae1e.png

 

 

 

 

Edited by JG7_X-Man
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[DBS]TH0R
8 hours ago, JG7_X-Man said:

Since I that made the transition for 55" OLED TV to 49" QLED Gaming Monitor, I am saying that that the difference is substantial between both monitors.

Unless you have both monitors as well, you are only making an anecdotal argument.

 

Lets look at the math behind the pixel (dot) pitch of the typical 55" 4K screen vs. 49" ultrawide:

 

image.png.21839e0aa378e24198fe9a56d419069d.pngimage.png.9e514b3e7b87fe2dad9e7a8ededc5d8a.png

 

With the 20% higher pixel size on the 55" TV, no wonder you have to sit closer to the screen on the 49" monitor. :)

 

Yes, I have a 55" TV at my office at work so I do know first hand how close you have to sit in front of one in order to see something.

 

With some guesswork from personal experience, my money would be on too high default brightness set on the TV which prevented you to sit closer in vs. the 49". That coupled with higher input lag of a TV vs. monitor makes the latter a better option for gaming.

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blitze

Turning off Nvidias Antialiasing - Gamma correction works wonders for me in VR.

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SharpeXB
Posted (edited)
On 5/18/2021 at 4:58 AM, JG700_Benek said:

Hello,

 

disable target FPS and VSync in  game and enable vsync in nvidia control panel, set msaa to 8x to see if helps, enable full screen ingmae then right click il2.exe in game folder click properities > compatibility and uncheck full screen optimization, in game in camera settings disable cinematic if enabled and try setting smoothness to 20 also is worth taking a look at ur monitor generally it can be to bright or set to wrong gamma.

 

Try getting nvidia driver 466.11 they run good and are fixing washed out colours on same panels in Windows (you may need to delete any colour profile attached to your display)

 

Here are my detailed settings so you can check if they help you:

Some of this makes sense like disabling Cinematic since this adds motion blur but these other suggestions I have to wonder; how did you test this?

Gamma: there’s no test screen in the game so how would anyone know exactly what to set this to?

Nvidia driver: how did you evaluate this? By uninstalling and reinstalling every driver version?

Full Screen Optimization. I can’t see why this would have any effect on spotting, here’s what that actually does

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/demystifying-full-screen-optimizations/

 

It’s cool if this works for you but stuff like this can contribute to the spotting wild goose chase. With so many hardware combinations, what seems to work for one may not work for all. 

Edited by SharpeXB
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JG700_Benek
2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Some of this makes sense like disabling Cinematic since this adds motion blur but these other suggestions I have to wonder; how did you test this?

Eyeball Mk.1

 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Gamma: there’s no test screen in the game so how would anyone know exactly what to set this to?

There are many ways to correctly set your monitor gamma outside of game I was talking about making sure your monitor is well set before launching the game.

 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Nvidia driver: how did you evaluate this? By uninstalling and reinstalling every driver version?

Yes I pretty much install every driver and test as for my statement about colours here u can compare pre 466.11 drivers colours with 466.11

 

466.11:

Untitled1.thumb.png.d2c4f1c46caa9e0c076637fd439f5ad0.png

earlier drivers:

Untitled.thumb.png.7e17ee59e03904eeb6bf64084747ac2c.png

 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Full Screen Optimization. I can’t see why this would have any effect on spotting, here’s what that actually does

I know what it does it may not directly help with spotting but its my preference to ensure exclusive full screen on games I play - downside of using this is longer alt tabbing out of the game

 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s cool if this works for you but stuff like this can contribute to the spotting wild goose chase. With so many hardware combinations, what seems to work for one may not work for all. 

 

Thats why I said " try my settings so you can check if they help you".

 

It seems it helps some players especially new ones if you got better advice for them share it.

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SharpeXB
1 minute ago, JG700_Benek said:

Yes I pretty much install every driver and test as for my statement about colours here u can compare pre 466.11 drivers colours with 466.11

You do realize that this is really really tedious… right? And if you’re running any other games you may screw them up without the current driver. The effect you think you see from this just might be a placebo. It’s not advice I’d hand out universally to everyone. 

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JG700_Benek

466.11 is like month old driver there were 2 whqls releases since then and one hotfix all of these should have this color fix already. I was sharing settings with this driver when it was current or one revision below current. I shared what works good for me whats your advice - run all on default? 

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SharpeXB
17 minutes ago, JG700_Benek said:

466.11 is like month old driver there were 2 whqls releases since then and one hotfix all of these should have this color fix already. I was sharing settings with this driver when it was current or one revision below current. I shared what works good for me whats your advice - run all on default? 

I’ve only ever run this game on NCP defaults and the latest driver. Never had trouble spotting or noticed any difference between driver versions. Only once in my life, in a different game, did I notice a driver update screw up a game. 

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