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Russian competition to the Me 262?


VikingFjord
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No. But they had more than enough of these, so they didn't need one:

Sassuntsi_Davit_T-34_Column.jpg

 

"Quantity has a quality all its own"...

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VikingFjord

well then good luck using that in game :) i have heard stories about LA-7 having shot down 262
will be cool to see the 262 in game

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The La-7 was the only Soviet fighter to get a confirmed Me 262 kill IIRC.

 

The thing is: The VVS really didn't need something to counter it. The 262 was designed for high altitude performance and to kill heavy bombers. Neither of which was particularly threatening to most VVS operations.

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I don't think there was any plane offering a real counterpart to the Me-262, on any side.

 

I think there were some prototype of jets at this point (memories from Il-2 1946) but I am far from sure any had seen combat at this time

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some modern researchers found in archives, that 262 in victory list of Kozhedub is not really confirmed, ie there have serious doubts...

 

although, exactly from these researches, we got some new cases when 262 were downed by soviet pilots - here little summary of famous historian, about downed at EF 262s - in total, 8 kills (3 are doubtful)...

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Nice archive findings.I did not know that 262s were operational in area of Koenigsberg.Interesting info,thanks bivalov.

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IVJG4-Knight

@VikingFiord

 

They did try to make a jet fighter: LA-vrd

But the engine they tried to build for it(Liulka S-18) never went beyond project faze.

 

This is why the mig-9 a 1946 plane used BMW 003 inspired engines.

post-15670-0-76791000-1402839347_thumb.jpg

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DD_fruitbat

I don't think there was any plane offering a real counterpart to the Me-262, on any side.

 

I think there were some prototype of jets at this point (memories from Il-2 1946) but I am far from sure any had seen combat at this time

The meteor got its first 'air kills' in 1944, all be it V1 flying bombs, and at the end of the war was flying from Belgium. The Yp80 was also flying from italy at the end of the war. The Germans also had the He 162 flying operationally at the very end of the war and it is credited with some kills. Also the first jet bomber the arado 234 was operational at the end of the war, and was involved with the final destruction of the bridge at Remagen.

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ShamrockOneFive

well in il246 there were some russian jets with weak cannons but that was a waht if :)

 

If by weak cannons you mean the NS-23? Which will rip a German jet in IL-2 1946 into pieces in a single hit or two at the most?

 

some modern researchers found in archives, that 262 in victory list of Kozhedub is not really confirmed, ie there have serious doubts...

 

although, exactly from these researches, we got some new cases when 262 were downed by soviet pilots - here little summary of famous historian, about downed at EF 262s - in total, 8 kills (3 are doubtful)...

That's very interesting. Kozhedub's Me-262 is probably the most well known jet kill on the Eastern Front but curious that it was called into question. Fascinating stuff.

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The meteor got its first 'air kills' in 1944, all be it V1 flying bombs, and at the end of the war was flying from Belgium. The Yp80 was also flying from italy at the end of the war. The Germans also had the He 162 flying operationally at the very end of the war and it is credited with some kills. Also the first jet bomber the arado 234 was operational at the end of the war, and was involved with the final destruction of the bridge at Remagen.

 

ok, I knew there were some other jets, but in my opinions they were not a real competition for the Schwalbe. but again I may be wrong and would love to see datas proving the opposite. That would feed my imagination for a late war dogfight with early jets

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The ME-262 where relative slow in acceleration and also vulnerable during the landing phase. So when taken by surprice, downing a ME-262 would not be that hard.

Neither where the ME-262 a dogfighter. It excelled in accelerating to high speed at relaitve high altitude, attacking bombers  that mostly flew in fixed formation, thus making it an intercepter rather than a real (dog) fighter.

 

FinnJ

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If by weak cannons you mean the NS-23? Which will rip a German jet in IL-2 1946 into pieces in a single hit or two at the most?

 

well what sure its weak its my memory

 

 i mean an almost delta wing jet very manoubrable but with wick cannons, personally in 46 i prefered a single chance head on with the 262 that getting frustrating using a bb gun in that plane, maybe it was american a star in the wing sounds familiar

 

in doubts i probably mean the il246 jet with the weakest  cannons

 

anyone?

 

id face 262 with it

Edited by raaaid
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6./ZG26_Gielow

well then good luck using that in game :) i have heard stories about LA-7 having shot down 262

will be cool to see the 262 in game

Good Job !!! You owned him  :ph34r:

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I don't think there was any plane offering a real counterpart to the Me-262, on any side.

 

I think there were some prototype of jets at this point (memories from Il-2 1946) but I am far from sure any had seen combat at this time

 

 

I'd count in the Gloster Meteor and the Lockheed P-80, they both have been in service in very limited numbers. But those never met the 262. There was just one occasion where one Meteor has been damaged in Belgium by Ar-234 bombings. The Meteor was mainly used to wingtip V1s and should not fall in enemies' hands, therefore haven't been used offensively. The P-80 were just 4 field prototypes used as recons AFAIK, two of them based somewhere in Italy, the others in Scotland.

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ShamrockOneFive

ok, I knew there were some other jets, but in my opinions they were not a real competition for the Schwalbe. but again I may be wrong and would love to see datas proving the opposite. That would feed my imagination for a late war dogfight with early jets

 

The Meteor Mark I was good enough for V-1 intercepts but it was a poor aircraft in all other respects. The Spitfire XIV and Tempest V were faster than it. The Meteor Mark III was a much larger improvement coming along in 1945 and while it still wasn't up to Me262 standards it was getting closer.

 

If it had become a huge problem I suspect it would actually have been the Vampire rather than the Meteor that would have taken up the RAF's fight against the German jet fighters. The war didn't last that long...

 

well what sure its weak its my memory

 

 i mean an almost delta wing jet very manoubrable but with wick cannons, personally in 46 i prefered a single chance head on with the 262 that getting frustrating using a bb gun in that plane, maybe it was american a star in the wing sounds familiar

 

in doubts i probably mean the il246 jet with the weakest  cannons

 

anyone?

 

id face 262 with it

Not sure what you were flying... the only "delta wing" would be the Go229 but its armed with two MK103 cannons which are a potential one hit kill they are so powerful.

 

If it's American than the YP-80 is in the game and that would have the weakest loadout with 6x.50cal machine guns in the nose... although at closer ranges those would shred a jet in IL-2 1946 with no issue as well. No delta wing tho... ?

 

Maybe something else? Most jets are armed very well in IL-2 1946 reflecting the trend that these jets should have massive armament seeing as faster speeds and closure rates mean that you have far less time to do damage than in a propeller fighter flying at half the speed.

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It's a bit of a funny discussion really. I assume we all agree, that the Me 262 was a true innovation with no true counterpart during its short service life.

 

If the war had lasted long enough for the Me 262 to become a real threat to Allied air operations, it's not even certain, that it would have taken new innovations to deal with them.

 

The VVS could basically just have ignored them. The Me 262 posed no more of a threat to their operations than a Bf 109K or a Fw 190D. The USAAF might have been able to get the teething problems with the P-80 out of the way, and it would certainly have been able to engage the 262 on somewhat equal terms, but would that really have been necessary? The Tempest, the Mustang and the Thunderbolt were perfectly capable of downing the 262, if they attacked under the proper circumstances. Have fighter sweeps ahead of bomber formations target the air fields known to house Schwalbes, as happened in real life, and the threat will be eliminated quick enough. No secret weapon will save you, when you're hopelessly outnumbered and in retreat on all fronts. Neither the V1, V2, Me 262 Ar 234, He 162, StG 44 or any of the other innovative designs helped Germany in the long run.

 

Fortunately innovation alone doesn't win wars.

Edited by Finkeren
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Nice archive findings.I did not know that 262s were operational in area of Koenigsberg.Interesting info,thanks bivalov.

:salute::)

 

That's very interesting. Kozhedub's Me-262 is probably the most well known jet kill on the Eastern Front but curious that it was called into question. Fascinating stuff.

i will note again, that is just very specific work of some historians, and not 100 % correct information, of course...

 

for example, М. Быков (autor of these articles, and of well known books, like this guide) said - "Мы... занимаемся... подсчетом, перечислением и опубликованием списков засчитанных побед советских асов по нашим архивным документам."

 

and if you, guys, want to know a bit more, quote of M.B. from historical forum - 

 

"64 - Кожедуб

61 - Речкалов

55 - Гулаев

52 - Евстигнеев

50 - Глинка Д.

46 - Покрышкин, Колдунов, Ворожейкин

44 - Скоморохов, Моргунов

41 - Краснов

40 - Попков, Пивоваров

 

39 - 1 летчик

38 - нет

37 - 1

36 - 1

35 - 2

34 - 3

33 - 2

32 - 2

31 - 3

30 - 7

29 - 6

28 - 7

27 - 14

26 - 12

25 - 11

24 - 14

23 - 15

22 - 21

31 - 16

20 - 33

 

Данные суммарные по итогам всех войн и конфликтов с Испании до Кореи."

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well what sure its weak its my memory

 

 i mean an almost delta wing jet very manoubrable but with wick cannons, personally in 46 i prefered a single chance head on with the 262 that getting frustrating using a bb gun in that plane, maybe it was american a star in the wing sounds familiar

 

in doubts i probably mean the il246 jet with the weakest  cannons

 

anyone?

 

id face 262 with it

 

 

I am not sure that any Korean war Mig pilot would agree with you about the armament. F-86 only had "weak" .50cal compared to 23 and 30mm in the mig's, that didn't prevent american to shoot down any opponent.

 

 

but Finkeren resumed it quite well. Nothing could have beat the Me-262, nor had the time to be optimized well enough to do so. 

 

But I like to think (on a pure imaginational way, nothing about anything else than curiosity) about a uchronical developement of the ETO. Just bare with me : what if Hitler would not have pushed for his so-called "blitz bomber" and just truly saw the potential of the Jet fighter. It would have make a lot of thing way differents. 

Because the me-262 was kind of ready in 1943, if Hitler had pushed production to replace all the piston engine fighter, I don't think the story would have go as we know.

 

a lot of turning point would have been missed in the allied progression in Europe. What would have done large bomber formations against a couple dozen of these fighters? I have in mind that amazing footage of a gunner seeing a jet for the first time and beeing completely stunned by the speed.

Turrets on gunners postion do not turn fast enough to keep up with this kind of plane, nor escort could catch up... we would have see meteors, vampire and shooting star in the europe sky... or I could be speaking german right now instead of french...

 

well, anyway... this was a piece of art with wings, but I am glad things went the way they went

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DD_fruitbat

If the YP80 had indeed been needed, and the development been focussed, it would of been more than a match for the 262, since it was an out and out fighter rather than an interceptor, and much more manuverable. It was still in service at the start of the Korean war as the P80 shooting star, and it was only because of the Mig15 that it was withdrawn in favour of the Sabre.

 

That is not to say that the 262 wasn't special, just that by the end of the war it was already becoming dated, in its design as a 'modern' jet fighter, ie 2 engines underslung of the wings compared to the P80 engine configuration.

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In reading "The Luftwaffe War Diaries" byCajus Bekker it seemed the German high command ignored all the innovation of 262 early on deciding it wasn't needed and was very skeptical of any plane that didn't have a prop. It also talked about all the early tests the 262 it was set up as a tail dragger(!!!) and was really tricky to take off because of that. The elevator was basically in a dead zone and ineffectual so the "fix" to get the tail flying was at 110mph tap the brakes to get the tail up. The test pilot Fritz Wendel was screaming for tricycle gear and the reaction was it was a gimmick! This was 1942. Then staff -engineer Beauvais shows up to test it and botches the takeoff and crashes. It gets put in mothballs or ignored till '44 and in reaction to the Allied bombing Hitler says it should only be made into a bomber to do retaliatory strikes! What an amazing series of bungles. 

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6./ZG26_5tuka

In reading "The Luftwaffe War Diaries" byCajus Bekker it seemed the German high command ignored all the innovation of 262 early on deciding it wasn't needed and was very skeptical of any plane that didn't have a prop...

Yep that's the reason for it's short career, even though it's first appearance was much earlier.

The first jet flight ever in 1939 was 2 weeks before the outbrake of the war when a german testpilot took off with the He 178. Even after this highly successfull triumph german leadership didn't show any interest in jet deisgns unlike german scientists.

 

One reason was also the materials which were nessecary to produce jet engines, it required use of rare metals and special fuels which made mass production quite difficult by that time.

After the early success over Poland and France german leaderhsip felt confident that the Bf109 was well enought to deal with any allied fighter of that day which pushed jet development even further.

 

And the tail dragger design for the Me 262 was also chosen by the german leadership because trycicle landing gears were declined "too-american-like" and showed high unreliability on field airstrips as far as I know.

 

It was still an awesome plane with effectively no competition in performance and numbers on allied side (jet aircraft wise).

Edited by [Jg26]5tuk4
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Even if the Me 262 had entered service in late 1942 (which is propably the earliest date that could concievably have been achieved). I still can't see it make that much of a difference for the war effort. Even if it was rushed into large scale production, initial numbers would have been small and prone to all kinds of teething problems, training bottle necks and would propably have meant a reduction in the overall number of serviceable fighters for the Luftwaffe, which was already outnumbered on all fronts. By the time it would be in service in the thousands, the war was already lost long ago, and the numerical superiority of the opposition so great, that even thousands of Me 262s would have made no difference.

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1v1, no fighter actively in combat was a match for the Me262 in speed. Of course wars are not fought in 1v1 aerial duels; operationally the Allies dealt with 262s fairly well using conventional aircraft. The Me262s were built in thousands (well, over a thousand); they didn't really impact the outcome of the war at all.

 

The only immediately available plane which was somewhat comparable was the Meteor, but they saw no actual air to air action short of downing V1s and strafing very late in the war (by the time they were cleared to fly over enemy airspace - finding a fight was very hard). The Meteor's problem is lack of speed - it would have an advantage in maneuver if the Me262 got slow enough, but the choice of airfoil adapted to slow flight meant that the Meteor had a lower limiting speed in a dive and was much less stable as a high speed gunnery platform compared to a, say, Tempest.

 

Realistically, early jets were a big advance in technology, but weren't ready to fully replace propeller driven fighters. Just fielding them was a challenge in itself. You don't just "ship off" first jets to a fighter wing and they're now somehow an jet fighter wing - you have to train the pilots (and not just in flying a jet - which is quite different then a propeller driven fighter, but also in how to do combat with one since they need tactics specifically adapted to them), train the maintenance crews, sort out the logistics and maintenance, solving technical issues you run into on the way. It took Germany over half a year to get the first jet fighter wing operational (in early 1945), in a period of emergency. In contrast, new propeller driven fighters were seeing service basically "as delivered" with minimal retraining necessary.

 

A lot is said about Hitler's role in convering the Me262 into a "Jabo", but it should be noted that he also insisted that the new aircraft be built post haste, so whether the net effect was positive or negative is hard to say. He was definitely more fond of "wonder weapons" then RLM leadership was.

 

Of course command structures were not, in any country, actively pushing jet development. However, from their point of view, they needed fighters that worked now and would work in the conceivable future. Had they decided to actively push the development of Jet fighters after the first flights in 1941, you would be perhaps looking at jet deployment no earlier than 1943.

 

Look at it from their point of view; they were not even sure the war would last so long, they were not sure that the new planes would work well in practice as combat aircraft, and they certainly couldn't spare taking away from propeller aircraft production. What looks illogical to us from a "gamer" perspective where all factors except pure airplane performance are taken away, from a perspective of someone who is responsible for the day to day functioning of the airforce is a different matter.

Edited by Cpt_Branko
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6./ZG26_5tuka

Look at it from their point of view; they were not even sure the war would last so long, they were not sure that the new planes would work well in practice as combat aircraft, and they certainly couldn't spare taking away from propeller aircraft production. What looks illogical to us from a "gamer" perspective where all factors except pure airplane performance are taken away, from a perspective of someone who is responsible for the day to day functioning of the airforce is a different matter.

That's a totally valid point, I can't disagree on that.

 

Ressources were distributed for other war relevant developments and mass production, still those ressources could have been used differently.

It's wasn't the lack of knowledge or german aircraft deisgners disfavour of creating the first jet fighter plane by that time, it was the little ressources they were given and the lack of RLM interest in integrating such a plane into the Luftwaffe, which wasn't false in it's basics.

 

Still it would have helped to increase the 262's (and upcoming german sceond generation jets) impact on the war if development started earlier with better progress.

 

And the idea of converting it to a jabo just dropped with the appearnce of the Arado 234 which finally satisfied Hitler's need for a Blitzbomber (although it saw service as such in 1945 only).

Edited by [Jg26]5tuk4
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I also think it's hard for us to appreciate just how new jet technology was at the time. It was even less developed at the start of the war than radar was. It's really hard to imagine the pace of development that must have been kept at all times. To have a working prototype of the first jet fighter with performance already outshining piston engined aircraft within 3 years of the first jet flight in history is an amazing achievement.

 

However, meassured purely in impact on the war effort, I'm completely convinced, that only one of the German innovations in WW2 could truly have impacted the war in a big way: The development of the assault rifle. Had the StG 44 been fully developed and put into large scale production by early 1942 (which given enough funds would have been within the realm of posibility) and had the Wehrmacht been able to adjust its tactical doctrines accordingly, it could very well have reversed the tactical advantage of the Red Army in the many close quarters battles, where they bled the Germans out, and this might have had tremendous consequences for the course of the war, if perhaps not the overall outcome. 

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I agree. The technological advancement was really going on at a tremendous pace.

 

As for the "what ifs" - well, an assault rifle would be really a handy thing to have, better combat effectiveness in typical situations at cost of a slightly bigger logistical footprint. The thing is, their real "missed opportunity" wasn't a piece of technology. Strategic decisions carry a lot more weight then the type of rifle soldiers use. The Soviets before the war broke out were in the process of rearming with semi-automatic rifles; this was dropped after the outbreak of war and they made cheaper bolt-action instead, because they had to compensate for, well, basically, losing almost the entire army and airforce in 1941. US troops used semi-automatic rifles en masse, sure it's an advantage - but not something really decisive for the outcome of the war. It's scary to think - victory was within reach in 1940 & 1941 for Germany.

 

Regardless of some fortunate mistakes by Hitler personally and his high command, overall they militarily did much, much better then they were "supposed to do" and just a bit worse then they needed to do to win. When it comes to "what ifs", the Allies made lot of costly blunders in the early stages of the war. The reasons why France fell like it did and why the Red Army and airforce were nearly completely obliterated in 1941 were largely because of massive Allied blunders at the strategical and operational level - if those were avoided, victory would have been a lot quicker and less costly.

Edited by Cpt_Branko
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I agree Branko, and I don't think that basically any type of technoogical innovation alone could have made the war winnable for Germany in the long run. I simply meant, that the only innovation that could concievably have had a significant impact, had it been prioritized earlier, was the introduction of assault rifles. None of the other "secret weapons" (as they are so often refered to by sentionalistic documentaries) had the potential to make much difference.

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A lot is said about Hitler's role in convering the Me262 into a "Jabo", but it should be noted that he also insisted that the new aircraft be built post haste, so whether the net effect was positive or negative is hard to say. He was definitely more fond of "wonder weapons" then RLM leadership was.

 

The idea that Hitler's insistence upon making the Me 262 a fighter-bomber significantly delayed its introduction is an old myth that was debunked long ago. Messerschmidt already had plans to make a fighter-bomber variant long before Hitler made his request official. Manfred Boehme discusses that at some length in his book on JG 7: http://www.amazon.com/JG-Fighter-Schiffer-Military-History/dp/0887403956/ref=la_B001KDG320_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1403130331&sr=1-1

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