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Great Patriotic War


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cardboard_killer
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[80 years and three days ago] "In Nazi occupied eastern Poland it was an open secret that preparations were being made for war. Hitler was to personally re-assure Stalin that he was moving troops there to keep them away from British bombers. But airfields were also being built, ready to receive the air fleets that would soon be diverted away from the attack on Britain. Zygmunt Klukowski was a Polish doctor whose diary records life under the occupation:

 

May 6

In the city since early morning there has been a general panic. Germans are stopping all men, Aryans and Jews, and are sending them for labor at the airfields. During all of this beatings are a normal part of German conduct. From the window I observed them. With special satisfaction the Germans beat people who were well dressed and looked like white collar workers.

 

All workers are under constant surveillance. One soldier with a rifle looks after ten workers. The work now starts at 6 a.m. and ends at dusk. The hardest work is in the flooded areas where the workers stand knee-deep in water. Some people who signed in as sick were examined by a young German physician. Only a few were dismissed.

 

Now the Germans have organized a civil defense. Dr. Likowski was put in charge. Today the commandant of gendarmerie stopped by to inspect the hospital cellars. He told me that he is requesting the installation of electrical power and telephones in the cellars, for use in case of air raids. Everyone talks openly about the upcoming war."

Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-134-0768-09_Polen

Men in a forced labour gang from the ghetto working outside Warsaw, May 1941.

Edited by cardboard_killer
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cardboard_killer

[80 years ago today] "• In a pre-planning conference between the German Army and the SS for Barbarossa, General der Artillerie Eduard Wagner and Reinhard Heydrich agree that Einsatzgruppen [translated to English usually as "Special Action Groups"] (paramilitary death squads) in front-line areas are to operate under Army command and the Army would provide the Einsatzgruppen with all necessary logistical support. "

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cardboard_killer

[80 years ago today] "• Following a two month inquiry by the Politburo and NKVD, another purge of the Red Army begins with the arrest of People's Commissar of Ammunition Ivan Sergeyev. Over the next several months, even after the German invasion, arrests will continue for anti-Soviet as well as suspected pro-German activities, including the People's Commissar of Armaments and the last three Commanders of the Soviet Air Forces. Several hundred officers in all will be arrested, with three hundred executed during the Battle of Moscow. A handful are cleared and released, with some going on to successful combat records in the Red Army, while the last 46, including 17 Generals, will be executed in February, 1942.

 

28070219_Beriau2019sproposal.jpg.e22479b95efda81e9f6aedfb03338f29.jpg

NKVD Chief Levrenty Beria’s proposal to execute the remaining purged officers. The blue ink scrawled across it is Stalins response: “Shoot all named in the list – J. St”

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cardboard_killer

[80 years ago today] "• Hitler issues the “Commissar Order” requiring that all political commissars identified among Soviet prisoners be immediately shot. They are described as “The originators of barbaric, Asiatic methods of warfare”. This will result in thousands of summary executions but will boost Soviet morale and make them more resistant to surrender when it becomes widely known. Once apprised of the unwelcome effect, Hitler will cancel the order in May 1942.

- As part of the directive, Hitler states that any German soldier who breaks international law will be pardoned, since Russia did not take part in the Hague Convention. This is counter to the Convention specifically stating that signatories are still bound even if their opponent has not signed."

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DD_Arthur
On 5/30/2021 at 4:58 PM, cardboard_killer said:

[80 years ago today] "• Following a two month inquiry by the Politburo and NKVD, another purge of the Red Army begins with the arrest of People's Commissar of Ammunition Ivan Sergeyev. Over the next several months, even after the German invasion, arrests will continue for anti-Soviet as well as suspected pro-German activities, including the People's Commissar of Armaments and the last three Commanders of the Soviet Air Forces. Several hundred officers in all will be arrested, with three hundred executed during the Battle of Moscow. A handful are cleared and released, with some going on to successful combat records in the Red Army, while the last 46, including 17 Generals, will be executed in February, 1942.

 

28070219_Beriau2019sproposal.jpg.e22479b95efda81e9f6aedfb03338f29.jpg

NKVD Chief Levrenty Beria’s proposal to execute the remaining purged officers. The blue ink scrawled across it is Stalins response: “Shoot all named in the list – J. St”

 

My god!  I didn’t know he was running another purge in ‘41.

 

It’s not ink btw.  Stalin favoured coloured pencils.

 

How about that for a bit of historical trivia?😃

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cardboard_killer

[80 years ago today] "• Soviet heavy cruiser Molotov is commissioned into the Black Sea Fleet. She is currently the only ship in the Soviet Navy with radar. Around this time Generals Zhukov and Vasilevski propose a pre-emptive attack on Germany, but Stalin refuses, claiming that the German buildup is only for diplomatic pressure, and that the Germans are too smart to launch a two-front war.

 

1750189910_SovietcruiserMolotov.jpg.a1e85a33e2a15bfbc0a2b0021625a01d.jpg

Molotov’s forward 7.1” guns.

 

• The Lucy spy ring, headed by German expatriate Rudolf Rößler in Switzerland, provides the Soviets with an accurate order of battle for the German attack as well as the start date: June 22nd. The Soviets doubt the information, suspecting Rößler to be an agent provocateur.

• Hitler meets individually with each senior commander for Barbarossa. The meetings are secret but one Luftwaffe General records Hitler’s primary point as:
 

  • “The main enemy is still Britain. Britain will fight on as long as the fight has any purpose; this is typical of the British, as we have seen from their individual soldier’s conduct in Flanders, and it was demonstrated again by Dunkirk, by Greece, and by Crete. But Britain’s fight only makes sense as long as they can hope that American aid will take effect and that they may find support on the continent.”

• German merchant vessels in Soviet ports are ordered to depart."

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Heliopause

Meanwhile in the occupied Baltic States (Estonia, Latvija and Lithuania)

This period sees mass deportations of tens of thousands of Baltic people into the Russian interior.
The deportees being described (amongst other things) as: 'opposed to the socialist order'.

The Baltic States where occupied the previous summer after Soviet pressure on its governments
(in case of Latvija there was even an staged artillery barrage on Russian soil, giving a "reason" for invading that country).

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cardboard_killer

The history of the crimes of the USSR and its sympathetic local communists could be started in another thread. They are long and many, as are the crimes of colonialism by the Netherlands and the USA.

 

The German plan for the Baltic states was to "thin" the population by 50% (roughly a million Latvians for example), saving those that could be "Aryanized" and mass starvation for the remainder to make room for eventual colonization.

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cardboard_killer

[80 years ago today] :• The Soviet NKVD begins deportation of political prisoners and intelligentsia suspected of anti-communist sympathies from the Baltic States to Siberia along with their families. Ironically, a good many of the prisoners are Jewish and this saves their lives. "

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cardboard_killer

[80 years ago today] "• German reconnaissance aircraft penetrate Soviet airspace as far as Kharkov, taking photographs. Many of these flights are undetected due to scarcity of Soviet radar.

• German port authorities are directed to prevent Soviet merchant vessels from leaving German ports. "

• Foreign Ministers Galeazzo Ciano and Joachim von Ribbentrop meet in Venice. When Ciano asks Ribbentrop about the rumors of a German attack on the Soviet Union, Ribbentrop denies them, but points out that should war really break out, a German victory would be achieved very quickly.

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cardboard_killer

[80 years ago today]

 

844255957_Soldiersof6Armeepraying18June1941.jpg.e93f5208d92409290c623474dd6e64bf.jpg

Soldiers of 6 Armee in Poland praying

 

 

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Irishratticus72
On 6/18/2021 at 10:18 PM, cardboard_killer said:

[80 years ago today]

 

844255957_Soldiersof6Armeepraying18June1941.jpg.e93f5208d92409290c623474dd6e64bf.jpg

Soldiers of 6 Armee in Poland praying

 

 

Should have prayed harder. 

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cardboard_killer

[80 years ago today] "• Soviet military attaché to Vichy France Ivan Sousloparov relays warnings from sympathetic Frenchmen of a potential German invasion. At the same time, military attaché to Germany Mikhail Vorontsov provides concrete evidence of German planning. The Politburo convenes to discuss organization of two new wartime fronts to replace the peacetime military districts

• German Ambassador Friedrich Werner von der Schulenburg receives orders from his superiors to destroy documents, code books, ciphers, and communications equipment, and he will receive a declaration of war to be delivered to Molotov at 7am the next morning, four hours after the invasion begins. [Schulenburg became involved with the conspiracy to kill Hitler, and was hanged in November of 1944 by the Nazis]

- Hitler’s secretaries will later recount that this is the time when Der Führer’s dependence on pills to get to sleep becomes regular as he is consumed with worry and excitement over the war with the Soviet Union.

• Soviet fighter pilots are ordered to not fire on German aircraft which fly over Soviet airspace.

• Soviet airfields in the western military districts are ordered to camouflage. This will only have begun on the 22nd. "

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=L/R=Rafcio

Some interesting drawings just before June 22, 1941. Breakthrough day of the 2nd World War in Europe. The two aggressors jumped at each other's throats. Lucky for mankind that Hitler struck first. The Soviet Union, with its broken backbone, was dying for almost 50 years before we regained

freedom in Central Europe in 1989.

 1111555_orig.jpg.4ef3196c952ccafae5099d389e9c3754.jpg44013-2033-vqwqf-a.jpg.52cc3681ff6dfb6b136969b2db77a06e.jpge2e35dfc1254af8cae609194d55e1bc5.thumb.jpg.e1eae7d94b605842bbce7e14eb2805a9.jpgunnamed.gif.17c59c646b3393de7ac5d2fc0f5043ae.gif

Edited by =L/R=Rafcio
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cardboard_killer

[80 years ago today] "• 129 years after Napoléon invaded Russia, Hitler launches the invasion of the Soviet Union. German media reports that the communists have attacked first and the Wehrmacht is only reacting. Luftwaffe and Romanian aircraft time their flights to be over their targets at H-hour. Sixty-six airfields are targeted, and an estimated 1,200 Soviet aircraft are lost, most destroyed on the ground while lined up in neat rows. Soviet anti-aircraft artillery in some cases hesitates to fire based on their previous orders to not respond to provocations. The only places where initial Soviet aerial resistance is significant is around the Baltic and Black Sea ports where naval aviation units are already at battle readiness.

- Multiple Axis sorties are flown, concentrating on airfields and disrupting Soviet command & control. Soviet bomber formations are ordered up to attack Axis airfields but without precise briefings, with already significant losses in their squadrons, and in some cases without fighter escort. They suffer heavy losses against the Axis fighters tasked for airfield defense. Total losses admitted by the Axis for the day: 35 aircraft.

 

vvs.jpg.b31db87beb2f33f896022d6185deaf45.jpg

VVS I-15 or I-153 fighters wrecked on the ground in the first day(s) or Barbarossa. Hermann Göring himself doesn’t believe the initial claims of destroyed aircraft at Soviet bases but as they are captured and wrecks counted, will gladly accept them.

• Goebbels quotes Hitler on Berlin radio, saying:

“At this moment a march is taking place that, for its extent, compares with the greatest the world has ever seen. I have decided today to place the fate and future of the Reich and our people in the hands of our soldiers. May God aid us, especially in this fight!”

• Stalin is by all accounts paralyzed by the attack. Foreign Minister Molotov announces the invasion to the Soviet people:
 

  • “Without a declaration of war, German forces fell on our country, attacked our frontiers in many places ... The Red Army and the whole nation will wage a victorious Patriotic War for our beloved country, for honor, for liberty ... Our cause is just. The enemy will be beaten. Victory will be ours!”

• Hitler has a telegram delivered to Mussolini informing him of the invasion in the morning. Mussolini is annoyed but declares war on the USSR.

• Despite not having informed the Hungarian government of the invasion, the Germans ask Hungary to declare war. Miklós Horthy de Nagybánya tells his staff to inform the Germans that he has gone fishing, so he can see how the initial offensive plays out.

• Churchill quickly declares British support for the USSR. While noting that communism has had no stronger opponent than he, he affirms that Hitler and the fascists are far worse.

- Privately, Churchill notes that the defeat of Hitler is now only a matter of time. British media quickly follows suit:

 

 

• Eleven Soviet merchant ships are seized in German ports. German schnellboote sink four Soviet, Estonian, and Lithuanian cargo vessels and a Soviet patrol boat in the Baltic.

• 140 German, 14 Romanian, and 23 Finnish divisions face 134 Soviet ones, though Soviet divisions are smaller than the German ones. In several cases, German commanders forego the planned one hour artillery barrage and simply advance so as to not provide warning to Soviet defenders.

• Soviet Chief of Staff Georgy Zhukov is denied permission by Stalin to strike back. He flies to Colonel-General Mikhail Kirponos’ Kiev Military District and quickly determines that the pre-war plans for an immediate counteroffensive is impossible.

• German Ground troops penetrate 40 kilometers and many of the Bug River bridges are captured intact. Romanian troops cross the Prut River to recover Bessarabia.

• In Finland, troops of the German 2. and 3. Gebirgs Divisions occupy the area around the Petsamo nickel mines and processing plant to prevent a Soviet counterattack from knocking out production. That entire front is currently covered by the Soviet 52nd Rifle Division, but Murmansk is not currently a German target. The Soviets will give the order before the end of the day to evacuate women and children from Murmansk.

- Finland does not declare war yet, but German aircraft are operating from Finnish airfields.

• Some of the reasons for the initial success of the blitzkrieg:

- A shortage of experienced leaders due to Stalin’s purges. Those remaining fear to show initiative as they may be deemed insubordinate.
- Rifle divisions are understrength as much as 60% and some have less than 50% of their vehicle allocation.
- Soviet communications are terrible, with lack of radios in units and vehicles. Coordination with the artillery is usually dependent on cable communications.
- Soviet communications have been thoroughly penetrated with the Germans able to decrypt up to 80% of Red Army transmissions. This will allow them to counter Soviet moves often before the Soviet units even begin acting.
- German troops are again provided with crystal meth to keep them going without rest. .
- The Soviet Air Forces are largely equipped with 1920s and early 1930s vintage aircraft, many of which lack radios.
- A third of all Soviet tanks are overdue for overhaul. Of the 29,000 vehicles on the books, about 7,000 can be considered combat worthy. Further, there is a shortage of 76.2mm armor piercing ammunition. .
- Soviet armor is dispersed and not concentrated into striking formations.

• A Leutnant in the 74. Infanterie Division writes home today:
 

"I’ll tell you in advance that in four to five weeks time the swastika flag will be wafting over the Kremlin in Moscow, and that moreover we will have Russia finished this year and Tommy on the carpet. . .

 

Ja — it is no secret, when and how, that we will be in Moscow within four weeks with our as yet undefeated Wehrmacht. It is only 1,000 km from Suwalki as the crow flies. We only need to conduct another Blitzkrieg. We only know how to attack. Forward, onward and again forward in concert with our heavy weapons raining fire, cordite, iron, bombs and shells — all on the heads of the Russians. That’s all it needs."

2125255839_CowsinvestigatethewreckofaMiGineasternPoland.jpg.231bd6fe57cabd7c2f9486b28b650778.jpg

Cows investigate the wreck of a MiG in eastern Poland

 

919076479_WreckofTupolevSB.jpg.f66bc221cfefc0b00bbf4f21a17d4b54.jpg

Wreck of Tupolev SB"

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HansB.JPG

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Cybermat47
On 6/7/2021 at 3:06 AM, cardboard_killer said:

- As part of the directive, Hitler states that any German soldier who breaks international law will be pardoned


However, any German serviceman who denounced Nazi atrocities* or had a consensual rendezvous with another man would be subjected to punishments up to and including the death sentence.

 

It says a lot about the Wehrmacht’s leadership that they would condemn such people while protecting and encouraging war criminals.
 

*Refusing to participate in atrocities was allowed, but saying that the atrocities were morally wrong was forbidden.

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=L/R=Rafcio
On 6/22/2021 at 1:43 PM, cardboard_killer said:

• 140 German, 14 Romanian, and 23 Finnish divisions face 134 Soviet ones, though Soviet divisions are smaller than the German ones. In several cases, German commanders forego the planned one hour artillery barrage and simply advance so as to not provide warning to Soviet defenders.

• Some of the reasons for the initial success of the blitzkrieg:

- A shortage of experienced leaders due to Stalin’s purges. Those remaining fear to show initiative as they may be deemed insubordinate.
- Rifle divisions are understrength as much as 60% and some have less than 50% of their vehicle allocation.
- Soviet communications are terrible, with lack of radios in units and vehicles. Coordination with the artillery is usually dependent on cable communications.
- Soviet communications have been thoroughly penetrated with the Germans able to decrypt up to 80% of Red Army transmissions. This will allow them to counter Soviet moves often before the Soviet units even begin acting.
- German troops are again provided with crystal meth to keep them going without rest. .
- The Soviet Air Forces are largely equipped with 1920s and early 1930s vintage aircraft, many of which lack radios.
- A third of all Soviet tanks are overdue for overhaul. Of the 29,000 vehicles on the books, about 7,000 can be considered combat worthy. Further, there is a shortage of 76.2mm armor piercing ammunition. .
- Soviet armor is dispersed and not concentrated into striking formations.
 

 

I don't know why you're posting this crap. Everything you wrote here is not true. You don't know anything about history, you only publish with ctr + C, ctr + V some dirty information from sources that come from official Soviet propaganda, such as Zhukov's diaries. You're not presenting any evidence of your crap.

In sequence:

1. Number of divisions. As you presented here, the Germans outnumbered them. Complete nonsense. Idea. You write that the Soviets had 29,000 tanks.

Divide that by your number of divisions. How much is coming out? What, every division of the Soviets was an armored division. The number of divisions you have introduced is only the number of infantry divisions and not complete. On June 22, 1941, the Soviets had more than 200 infantry divisions, not counting mechanized and armored, and know that each Soviet mechanized division outnumbered any German armored division.

2.  A shortage of experienced leaders due to Stalin’s purges.  Since 1939, the Soviet armed forces have grown two or even more times. Many people were drafted into the army. Not surprisingly, many of them had no experience in their positions. Company commanders had to command battalions and so on. The company commanders were swiftly trained conscription officers. No purges there. Invention of Soviet propaganda. It was the same with the Germans. For many German units, as well as their officers and soldiers, June 22, 1941 was the first day of their fight. An example from your backyard. Band of brothers. Every officer in the company was a swiftly trained civilian, and D-day was also their first day to fight. Normal phenomenon in a war.

3. Rifle divisions are understrength as much as 60% and some have less than 50% of their vehicle allocation. I don't know where this data comes from. Stalin was preparing very well for the war. I don't know if you know, but the Soviet infantry division had two artillery regiments and the German one only. It had greater firepower, as it had 122 mm howitzers, and the Germans only 105 mm. She did not stand out in terms of both the army and the equipment. Last but not least, it only owned 50% of the vehicles. Maybe a fact. But it never dawned in your head that the 50% in absolute terms could be much more than 100% in the German division. And it was true.

4. Soviet communications have been thoroughly penetrated with the Germans able to decrypt up to 80% of Red Army transmissions. This will allow them to counter Soviet moves often before the Soviet units even begin acting. 

This is how the Germans read the Soviet dispatches but were still surprised by the emergence of new Soviet forces. The Germans knew absolutely nothing about the Soviet army. They were surprised by their armament, numbers and location. So it's hard to believe what you wrote.

5. German troops are again provided with crystal meth to keep them going without rest.  No comment. Only a man who knew nothing about the military and military history could write such nonsense.

6. The Soviet Air Forces are largely equipped with 1920s and early 1930s vintage aircraft, many of which lack radios. 

Complete crap. MigG-3s alone in the Western Military District (Belarus) was more than Bf-109s on the entire front. Even the I-16 were mostly versions with the M-62 and      M-63 engines, that is, produced after 1939. The same SB-2 bombers were also from the newest versions produced after the experiences of the Spanish war, with more powerful engines and reinforced weapons. I don't know where you got those planes from the 20s and 30s, but what you wrote is complete rubbish.

7.  A third of all Soviet tanks are overdue for overhaul. Of the 29,000 vehicles on the books, about 7,000 can be considered combat worthy. Further, there is a shortage of 76.2mm armor piercing ammunition. Stalin was preparing for war like no other in the history of the world. The armed forces of the Soviet Union were the apple of his eye. He cared for them especially, because with their help he decided to conquer Europe. Suddenly, just before the most important military operation for him, most tanks are rendered unusable. Weird no. 7,000 can be considered worthy. Soviet tanks at that time were the best tanks in the world. The Soviets were the only ones to use heavy tanks at that time. Even the most numerous light infantry tank, the T-26, was better armed then any German tank. It had a great 45mm cannon that would destroy any German tank. The high-speed BT tanks were also armed like this. I will not mention the KW and T-34 tanks. The long-barreled 76.2 mm gun or the 152 mm howitzer (KW-2) were only a dream of the German tankers, who mostly used 37 mm cannons in their tanks.

8.  Soviet armor is dispersed and not concentrated into striking formations. Another complete crap. The Soviet tanks were grouped in mechanized corps, which in the number of tanks many times exceeded the German Panzer Groups. The Soviet military doctrine assumed the use of large armored formations for the 1930s. I do not know if you have seen the chronicles of great maneuvers in the 1930s. Moreover, since there were as many of these tanks as you wrote, how in this enormous number they could be scattered. How?

Please. Stop writing such nonsense.

 

Edited by =L/R=Rafcio
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cardboard_killer

The really tragic part is how right wing totalitarianism is now making great inroads again in eastern Europe.

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=L/R=Rafcio

The level of knowledge in American society is truly tragic. Because if you meant my country, Poland, it is located in Central Europe. Look at the map of the American man with a lack of knowledge of both history and geography. Moreover, as usual from you. Zero arguments. Bottom. It can't go any deeper. Ctr + c and ctr + V.

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cardboard_killer

[80 years ago today] "• In response to Finnish commitment to fighting the Soviets, the Germans deliver the first of forty-four Curtiss H75A fighters that had been captured in Norway and France last year.

 

1509260931_FinnishH75s.jpg.02f27e9e5874db68bfa897e7faa32029.jpg

Finnish H75s

• Sixteen Finnish commandoes in civilian clothing are landed by German He-115 floatplanes in a remote section of the White Sea – Baltic Canal in an attempt to blow up a set of the locks. They will find it to be too heavily guarded and return to Finland on foot, blowing up a section of the Murmansk rail line as they cross it.

• The Germans gain another 60 kilometers but the 6. Panzer Division has to retreat at the Dubissa River when counter-attacked by KV-1 tanks of the Soviet 2nd Armored. The Soviet heavy tanks prove to be a rude shock for the Germans.

- Soviet 3rd and 12th Mechanized Corps make counterattacks in their respective areas and lose more than a hundred of the lighter and radioless BT and T-26 tanks to German armor, anti-tank guns, and aircraft.

- The “Headquarters of the Main Command of the Armed Forces of the USSR” is formed, known as Stavka. Based on a Czarist structure, it is initially composed of Defense Minister Timoshenko as President, Molotov, Stalin, Chief of the General Staff Zhukov, Marshals Voroshilov & Budenny, and Admiral Kuznetsov.

- Stalin authorizes NKVD chief Levrentiy Beria to broach an unofficial and tentative offer to Germany via the Bulgarian Ambassador, offering Germany the remainder of Poland, the Baltic States, and all of Ukraine in exchange for peace. Germany will not respond.

- Soviet bombers and ground attack aircraft will again be thrown against the German and Romanian spearheads, suffering heavy losses. Major General of Aviation Ivan Kopets, in charge of Soviet Bomber Command in the Western Districts, commits suicide.

• Slovakian dictator Father Jozef Tiso declares war on the USSR. Hungary and Finland break off relations, while puppet Croatia and fascist Spain offer to send volunteers to help with the “anti-Bolshevik crusade”.

 

1686613025_SlovakianAviaaircraftonaformerSovietairfield.jpg.bb4af600a9fe6ff17794f70ae5aaa4ee.jpg

Slovakian Avia B-534 fighters on a former Soviet air base in Ukraine. No significant victories will be scored and they will be redeployed for anti-partisan operations.

• In the Black Sea, a Soviet task force lead by light cruiser Voroshilov bombards Constanța, Romania. Destroyer Dnepr is mined and sunk off Sevastopol.

• The Soviets scuttle six submarines, a gunboat, an icebreaker, a torpedo-cutter, and a destroyer undergoing overhaul at Liepāja (Libau), Latvia.

• Vilnius and Kaunas are liberated by Lithuanian insurgent forces. A national government will operate with hopes of independence until forcibly shut down by the Germans in August.

 

645888729_DownedSu-2groundattackaircraftofthe52ndAviationRegiment.jpg.5a530a3c4a51eb8a12485f318da092ea.jpg

Downed Su-2 ground attack aircraft of the 52nd Aviation Regiment"

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=L/R=Rafcio
On 6/22/2021 at 1:43 PM, cardboard_killer said:

• Some of the reasons for the initial success of the blitzkrieg:
- Soviet armor is dispersed and not concentrated into striking formations.
 

26 minutes ago, cardboard_killer said:

- Soviet 3rd and 12th Mechanized Corps make counterattacks in their respective areas and lose more than a hundred of the lighter and radioless BT and T-26 tanks to German armor, anti-tank guns, and aircraft.

 

Does anyone even read the stupid things this man writes here? He doesn't even read them himself.

 

If the Soviet tanks were scattered and not concentrated in strike formations, what did the two mechanized corps consist of? Maybe they didn't have tanks in their compositions? Perhaps for two mechanized corps there were only a few. This man is irresponsible. Falsifying history is the greatest crime. 

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ITAF_Airone1989
3 hours ago, =L/R=Rafcio said:

Does anyone even read the stupid things this man writes here?

 

Your source?

 

In this book (https://images.app.goo.gl/3ATjuBvjVRZmKobS6) the author confirm what cardboard_killer said.

In the first periods russian tanks didn't operate as a strong group, but they were spread across the front.

Especially the heavy KW1.

German were shocked by the strength of this tanks, but they had little effect on the battle cause the Pz can outnumber them

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=L/R=Rafcio
58 minutes ago, ITAF_Airone1989 said:

 

Your source?

 

In this book (https://images.app.goo.gl/3ATjuBvjVRZmKobS6) the author confirm what cardboard_killer said.

In the first periods russian tanks didn't operate as a strong group, but they were spread across the front.

Especially the heavy KW1.

German were shocked by the strength of this tanks, but they had little effect on the battle cause the Pz can outnumber them

The Soviets had over 20,000 tanks armed with a 45mm gun (T-26 and BT series). It could destroy any German tank at that time. Also indestructible for German tanks and anti-tank guns T-34, KW-1 and KW-2 was almost half of that of all German tanks. They were assembled in mechanized corps, many of which had more tanks than the German armored groups. My main point is a sentence written by this guy that the Soviet tanks were scattered. How could approximately 25,000 tanks per 1,000 km front be dispersed?

Dude repeats Soviet propaganda trying to hide the actual reasons for the Soviet defeat in 1941.

It is not that the Soviets were not prepared for the war. They had much more strength at the border. They outnumbered the Germans. In addition, they had much better equipment. 

Have you ever seen a map of the location of Soviet mechanized corps? They were located mainly around Lviv and Białystok. Look at the map, how the border looked like then and where are these cities. What you see? A defensive group or preparations for an attack? Lucky for mankind that Hitler struck first. The Soviet Union, with its broken backbone, was dying for almost 50 years before we regained freedom in Central Europe in 1989.

The point is that the Red Army in June refused to fight for its country. Either they gave themselves up into prisoners of war by the thousands, or, abandoning all their equipment, panickedly retreated into the Soviet Union. And after the war, in Soviet propaganda, for example in Zhukov's diaries, there were all the lies that this guy feeds us, unfortunately duplicated in hundreds of other publications.

 

My source?

Compare the number of Soviet and German tanks. Their data, especially weapons. How could you lose by fighting weighing several times in numbers, having better equipment? Typically, the attacking side has much greater losses than the defender. Here it was the opposite. During the first two months, the losses of the Soviets were almost twenty times higher than the German losses.

The point is, there was no fight. Just putting yourself into a prisoner of war or a panic escape.

After twenty years of communist rule, no one wanted to fight for such a country.

I know what I'm saying. I grew up  in a communist country. You don't know it.

Edited by =L/R=Rafcio
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DD_Arthur
On 6/22/2021 at 6:26 PM, =L/R=Rafcio said:

The level of knowledge in American society is truly tragic. Because if you meant my country, Poland, it is located in Central Europe. Look at the map of the American man with a lack of knowledge of both history and geography. Moreover, as usual from you. Zero arguments. Bottom. It can't go any deeper. Ctr + c and ctr + V.

 

Standby for a shock Rafcio but for the rest of the world, Central Europe did not exist between 1945 and 1989.

 

 

 In the coke drinking world all you guys were in Eastern Europe.

Nobody was really sure where exactly that was and to be frankly honest, as long as it didn’t head west, I doubt many cared either.

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cardboard_killer

The Soviets suffered from a couple of problems in 1941. First, they had pioneered deep operations by concentrated armor in the 1930s. Then, they suffered defeat in the Spanish Civil War. They drew bad conclusions and decided to readjust their tactics based along more of the French model, spreading out their tanks among infantry units. After June of 1940, they changed again, back to concentrated armor. So, in the space of three years, they changed their entire operations handbook twice, radically; all while Stalin's purges decimated the upper echelons, put junior officers in high positions, and scared the shit out of those left. And then, they began slowly to modernize their equipment with the T-34, KV, and T-60s, which added to the lack of trained mechanics.

 

Soviet armored divisions in 1941 were armor heavy, in a bad way, concentrated in the wrong areas (mostly on the AGS's front, where the Germans had the least success in June-July), had paper strengths far above their actual strengths. Generally the Soviet tanks were poorer than the German's, except for the T-34 and KV. And almost all suffered from lack of radios, just as the French tanks did a year earlier. The Soviet reaction in the first two weeks was chaotic, with usually more than half of all tanks failing to reach start lines of offensives due to poor maintenance, lack of spare parts, tanks parks that included tanks that should have been sent back to factory for refurbishment, and contradictory orders that sent them on long road marches to nowhere, all while under LW attacks.

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BraveSirRobin
55 minutes ago, =L/R=Rafcio said:

After twenty years of communist rule, no one wanted to fight for such a country.


You know that Soviet troop fought all the way to Berlin, right?

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=L/R=Rafcio

 

Yes, I know the war ended with the capture of Berlin. But we're talking about the summer of 1941 here. Hundreds of thousands of Soviet prisoners of war, who did not even have to be escorted because there was no attempt to escape then, and thousands of undamaged tanks, cannons and other weapons abandoned by the Soviets testified that the Red Army did not fight for its country back then.

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BraveSirRobin
32 minutes ago, =L/R=Rafcio said:

 

Yes, I know the war ended with the capture of Berlin. But we're talking about the summer of 1941 here. Hundreds of thousands of Soviet prisoners of war, who did not even have to be escorted because there was no attempt to escape then, and thousands of undamaged tanks, cannons and other weapons abandoned by the Soviets testified that the Red Army did not fight for its country back then.


So what?  You said the problem was communism.  But they were still fighting for communism in 1945.  So maybe that wasn’t actually the problem.  

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cardboard_killer

I have that user on ignore, and encourage everyone to do so. If you do not want to, I beg of you not to respond to him in this thread. He has closed down another 80 years ago today history thread with his warped version of history. Start another thread and engage there, please.

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BraveSirRobin

No offense, but this isn’t really the place for threads like this.  If people want to learn about history they should probably read some books.

 

There isn’t supposed to be any politics on this forum, and it’s virtually impossible to talk about military history and avoid politics.

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216th_Nocke

I appreciate what cardboard_killer is doing here, his threads are always my favorite read here.

Please don't let one guy bring it down.

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=L/R=Rafcio
10 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

No offense, but this isn’t really the place for threads like this.  If people want to learn about history they should probably read some books.

 

There isn’t supposed to be any politics on this forum, and it’s virtually impossible to talk about military history and avoid politics.

Especially since the discussion on such threads quickly reaches the level of discussion of five-year-old children in kindergarten about whose mother is the best.

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I have to agree with BraveSirRobin here. While it is always interesting to learn about history, this kind of topics are bound to get ugly. 

The posts, while interesting, also do not really appear to present just a general and objective "happened today 80 years ago", but kind of give a "filtered" view of things.

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BraveSirRobin
10 hours ago, =L/R=Rafcio said:

Especially since the discussion on such threads quickly reaches the level of discussion of five-year-old children in kindergarten about whose mother is the best.


Indeed.  Be sure to let us know when you can explain why Russians were willing to fight for communism in 1945 but not in 1941.

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=L/R=Rafcio

 

18 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:


Indeed.  Be sure to let us know when you can explain why Russians were willing to fight for communism in 1945 but not in 1941.

I never claimed that the Soviets fought for communism in 1945. But maybe first you write something about this situation with prisoners and abandoned equipment. Is this the behavior of an army that wants to fight? If in a defensive operation the number of prisoners is many times more than the number of killed and wounded and the number of abandoned, undamaged equipment is many times the number of equipment destroyed, then something is wrong. Not to mention the multiplicity of the Soviet losses over the German ones in the context of the usual greater losses of the attacking side. Just. Never in the history of wars has such a story happened. How do you explain it? There is only one explanation. The Red Army, abandoning its equipment, either panickedly escaped or scattered, which then led to a situation when the Germans took the Soviets captive by thousands. In addition, consider the situation where the nations of the Soviet Union were the most numerous who volunteered in the German army. Not only as support formations, but also as compact combat units (see Normandy for example). No other nation with which Germany was at war did not support them in such numbers. Think, what prompted these people to fight for Hitler? Maybe they hated communism? They remembered the years of the great famine of the 1930s. Moreover, I don't know if you know that back then there were three categories of people in the Soviet Union: those who sat, sit and will one day sit. Of course, in the camps. In Siberia, in Kolyma, on the largest construction sites of communism. The Gulag Archipelago.

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cardboard_killer

[80 years ago today] "

• Soviet submarine S-3 has broken out from Libau where it was under refit. Unable to dive because of uncompleted yard work, it is attacked by German motor torpedo boats S-35 and S-60. She avoids torpedoes and engages in a gun duel, but her slow firing 100mm deck gun is overwhelmed by the quick-firing 20mm cannon of the schnellboots and the decks are cleared. The Germans close and throw hand grenades at her and drop depth charges in front of her. The crew then abandons and scuttles the submarine. Three crewmen are taken for interrogation and the rest shot in the water.

• Between 70 and 80 political prisoners are executed by NKVD guards at Rainių and Telšiai, Lithuania before they evacuate to the East. The Germans will make propaganda use of the murders, attributing them to 'Jewish Bolsheviks'.

• In Russia a Council of Evacuation is set up with emergency powers to oversee the evacuation of machinery, skilled workers and food stuffs on a large scale, away from the German advance.

• Finnish submarines Vesihiisi and Iku-Turso lay mines in the Gulf of Finland.

• Lieutenant General of Aviation Pavel Rychagov, head of the Soviet Air Force, is arrested. He will be executed in October.

• Soviet Deputy Defense Commissar General Kirill Meretskov is arrested. He will be cleared in September, 1941 and given a field command once again. As commander of Fourth Army, he will defeat Wilhelm Ritter von Leeb at Tikhvin in December, 1941.

• German III and XLVII Armeekorps attack and encircle encircle elements of the Soviet Fifth and Sixth Armies in a triangle bounded by Brody, Dubno, and Lutsk. The 8th Mechanized Corps under Dmitri Ryabyshev is the strongest striking force, equipped with some T-34 and KV-1 tanks as well as the older BT-5, BT-7 and T-26. Ordered to make a counter-attack, 8th Mechanized loses half of its tanks to breakdowns during a 500 km movement to the stepping off point. In the largest tank battle to date, the Germans will lose 200 and the Soviets 800 armored vehicles over the next few days.
666777644_RomanianHeinkel-112Bfighter.jpg.3f9783652a4e982c208174a2360d42e7.jpg
Romanian Heinkel-112B fighter"
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BraveSirRobin
10 minutes ago, =L/R=Rafcio said:

 

I never claimed that the Soviets fought for communism in 1945. 


I know you didn’t.  But you are claiming that they refused to fight for communism in 1941.  The problem for you is that they were quite willing to fight for communism in 1945.  And you’re not even attempting to explain the contradiction.  You just go back to the same old arguments and try to pretend that 1944 and 1945 didn’t happen. 

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=L/R=Rafcio
16 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:


I know you didn’t.  But you are claiming that they refused to fight for communism in 1941.  The problem for you is that they were quite willing to fight for communism in 1945.  And you’re not even attempting to explain the contradiction.  You just go back to the same old arguments and try to pretend that 1944 and 1945 didn’t happen. 

I argue that in 1941 the Soviets refused to fight for communism. And it is not a problem for me whether the Soviets fought for communism in 1945, because I am not interested in it. Maybe they were fighting for watches, which for the most part they saw for the first time when they robbed them in Poland in 1944 when they robbed my grandfather. I do not know. Perhaps I am going back to the old arguments, but you are not presenting any of yours.

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BraveSirRobin
6 minutes ago, =L/R=Rafcio said:

I argue that in 1941 the Soviets refused to fight for communism. And it is not a problem for me whether the Soviets fought for communism in 1945, because I am not interested in it. Maybe they were fighting for watches, which for the most part they saw for the first time when they robbed them in Poland in 1944 when they robbed my grandfather. 

 

You should probably develop an interest in what happened in 45, because it directly contradicts what you're claiming happened in 41.  

 

Also, watches were not the likely incentive, since they had already fought their way into Poland when they discovered them.

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