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Nieuport 28 initial impressions (+ bug reports submitted, see root post)


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N28 update is out!

 

 

Initial impression: same FM as RoF. Tail lifting off the ground slowly appears fixed (RoF 1.034), but she flies as if through molasses.

 

It also appears that she turns invisible after taking frontal damage.

 

 

Two bug reports are up:

 

 

 

Edited by =IRFC=Hbender
included links to bug reports
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From quick mission run, trying to fly her like she was a Dolphin...
-Fast!
-Handling well if you keep the speed high, good rolls, good in yo-yos
-Climbs well
-stable gun platform
-Dog if you don't keep the speed up (like a Dolphin or SE)
-Took long nosedive with 6 g pullout without problems 
-despite taking lots of bullets from AIs, she stayed in fighting shape
-benign stall, didn't get her anywhere close o stall or spin while fighting AIs Camels.

She's somewhere in SE/Dolphin league, and at first impressions combines best qualities of both. WOrse sustained turn than Dolphin, but more benign handling than British planes. The DM will be interesting part, since it's first plane built for new mechanics. So far, she seems more durable than Dolphin to me.

Edited by J2_Trupobaw
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6 minutes ago, J5_Klugermann said:

Keep up the good work Trupo. (trying to convince the 3PG to fly it.)


We'll have to enlist some suckers to take up the name of 1PG... 

...just installing now, keen to try the N28 for myself...

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3 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

I'm going to give her fair chance of replacing my stupid Dolphin. Need to rope Bidu into comparative performance tests against SE and Dolphin.


She’s not even in the same league as the SE or Dolphin, both are faster and have better sustained turn. The N28 has better roll and climb, but good luck translating that into something practical, especially against the Pfalzes of this world. Now that the 200hp versions are pretty much confirmed, the N28 is a bit of a joke.

 

But okay, fair enough, no FM improvements over RoF for existing planes, I’m keeping that in the back of my head for upcoming FC2 releases.

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Four fights against AI groups, plenty of bullets soaked, holes in wings, lots of dives, high speed rolls, sideslips and pullouts, got wounded a lot, but no rods jammed, no wings snapping, no overreving. 

And oh, Plankturn still does not work.

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Alas.. it is the P-47 of WW1.

 

It is fun shooting aircraft with balloon guns. The new visual damage system is great and the plane is fairly sturdy. But it is not a Nieuport. Just not. What a sluggish pig. Turns well though. If all but D.VIIF/Dr.I doesn't get you in the first turn, just keep the stick all the way back, wait, have french toast... you'll win.

 

4.5 g or so at 200 km/h elevator full back. This is the "I will never shed my wings"-plane. This plane really needs some further love.

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Just had an quick go and first impressions are that it's rather tail heavy.

I never used the '28 in Rise of Flight nor know much about the aircraft IRL though.

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52 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

4.5 g or so at 200 km/h elevator full back. This is the "I will never shed my wings"-plane. This plane really needs some further love.

 

20 minutes ago, Oliver88 said:

Just had an quick go and first impressions are that it's rather tail heavy.

 

 

See that doesn't make sense. If she has high wing loading or an inefficient thin wing like the SPAD, then she should have a good instantaneous turn, followed by a sharp stall when you attempt to sustain the turn. This is what happens in a P-47 or a F-104 Starfighter.

 

But that's not the case here, the elevators are simply not effective and they appear to add parasitic drag without significantly altering the AoA. She sort of flops about until she loses speed and falls to the ground. There's never a sharp stall. The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that the center of gravity is too far forward: she is too stable. There was already a fix to make the tail lift off sooner, which is typically achieved by moving the CoG further forward. That said: the tail lift off bug had no other impact on the plane's flying characteristics.

 

4. Adjusted: Nieuport 28.C1 FM - "Heavy tail on takeoff" issue fix;

 

https://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/44725-version-1034/

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Second impression along with being tail heavy in the air is that there is not much ammunition is there. Same number of guns as the Camel but half the ammunition.

 

250 per Vickers in the '28.

400 per Vickers in the SPAD.

400 per Vickers in the SE5. But also has Lewis in addition.

500 per Vickers in the Camel.

500 per Vickers in the Dolphin. But also can have Lewis in addition.

973 per Vickers in the Bristol. But also can have Lewis in addition.

 

Making the '28 the worst Entente scout for max 0.303 ammunition available.

Edited by Oliver88
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4 hours ago, =IRFC=Hbender said:

N28 update is out!

 

 

Initial impression: same FM as RoF. Tail lifting off the ground slowly appears fixed (RoF 1.034), but she flies as if through molasses.

 

Take that as you will.

 

 

 

EDIT: I'm getting a crash after a few seconds, and I don't know if it's related to my laptop install.

 

C9HRDuM.jpg

 

I'll have a closer look at everything tonight.

 

I'm getting the same crash mate... I've loaded it up in the quick missions and it does it every time I go into the outside view (F2) and look around the plane.

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5 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

I'm getting the same crash mate... I've loaded it up in the quick missions and it does it every time I go into the outside view (F2) and look around the plane.

 

4 hours ago, =IRFC=Hbender said:

EDIT: I'm getting a crash after a few seconds, and I don't know if it's related to my laptop install.

Same crash here as well... didn't even get a decent go in it!! I'm NOT on a laptop so it's not that.

C9HRDuM.jpg

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Just had a go in the N28 vs. US213_Biddle. Tried it out against the D.VII F, Pfalz, and D.Va. 

All I can say is, against even a semi-competent pilot you're dead meat. Against a skilled pilot like Biddle you're practically helpless, regardless of what the other guy's flying. If it's this bad for the N28 now, I dread to think what it'll be like when the D.IIIaü gets put into the German types....
 

The one thing I will say in its favour is that it seems pretty sturdy...which is just as well, because you'll need it to be! 

EDIT: Been getting that same error too. 

Edited by US93_Larner
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28 minutes ago, =IRFC=Hbender said:

which is typically achieved by moving the CoG further forward.

I would also think of this being an explanation. A far forward CoG eats your elevator effectivity. This plane needs a serious overhaul.

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@Jason_Williams and @AnPetrovich

 

I think most of us here recognise and are grateful for the effort you're putting in to bring these old planes to the new engine and that it's not cost effective to redo everything. It's no different with the Nieuport 28: she looks fantastic, also in VR. And she sounds great!

 

This was always by far the most controversial plane in all of Rise of Flight when it comes to how it flies, and because of the refinements in IL-2 Great Battles Digital Warfare engine, it appears to fly even worse now. All I'd like to understand is: why? This was one of the earliest planes developed for Rise of Flight. Except for the tail lift off on take off was there no improvement to be made? Almost all the other planes from >10 years ago have had some level of review.

 

All I know for sure is that it shed fabric in a dive and had an unreliable engine. Everything else seems to point towards the fact that it was responsive and could somewhat turn (wing loading, airfoil etc.). Is it perhaps an issue with center of gravity? Maybe we're just missing something else about it?

 

I'm about ready to just make peace with it and write it off, but for people who still need to be convinced of FC2's potential when coming from RoF this is a bitter pill to swallow.

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5 hours ago, =IRFC=Hbender said:


She’s not even in the same league as the SE or Dolphin, both are faster and have better sustained turn. The N28 has better roll and climb, but good luck translating that into something practical, especially against the Pfalzes of this world. Now that the 200hp versions are pretty much confirmed, the N28 is a bit of a joke.

 

But okay, fair enough, no FM improvements over RoF for existing planes, I’m keeping that in the back of my head for upcoming FC2 releases.

That's problem with Entente-minded guys, you overestimate crumpet planes :D. FC SE accelerates horribly, climbs moderately and whatever turn advantage she has on N28 in insufficient against central planes. N.28 is the worst if you lose speed but regains it very fast, climbs well, dives without fear of losing wings... Combined with climb and roll it translates into something very practical that SE can't do, basic maneuver of Entente pilot who has lost the initiative... ability to GTFO!  Especially since I have yet to see serious damage to rear surfaces of N.28.

I agree it's not a duellist or lone hunter weapon, but, like RoF Dolphin, it may be very capable teamplay plane.

Edited by J2_Trupobaw
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A more in-depth review of my first impressions of the N28: 


PROS: 
- Generally tame handling qualities except for some minor ill-effects of the rotary engine 
- War Crime Guns 
- Good visibility from the pilot's seat
- Quite tough, from what I can tell 
-  Exceptional roll rate

CONS:

- Poor energy retention and unremarkable BnZ ability
- Unremarkable sustained turn and tendency to bleed off energy very quickly in prolonged flat turns
- Very low ammo count! Especially with War Crime Guns! 
- Difficult to handle in stalling manoeuvres
- Totally outmatched by German scouts when it comes to PvP

...overall, I think it's a pretty cool plane to have in-game, but I expect it'll do rather poorly on the PvP servers. In a turning fight it'll be quickly overtaken by any of the German scouts, and its poor energy retention makes BnZ difficult to do effectively. Essentially, it feels like a bargain bin SPAD XIII (albeit while being able to soak up more punishment). 

The best way to use the N28 will be as an ambush predator, picking off unaware targets with a well-executed bounce. Actually, I'll rephrase - the only way I can see the N28 being successful is through scoring kills on unaware targets. It's just not quite good enough at any one thing to really hold its own in a proper scrap. 

The gun configuration can make aiming a little odd, but fortunately the N28 is a reasonably stable gun platform so I imagine gunnery in the N28 isn't too difficult with a little bit of practice. This is also made easier with the Aldis / Le Chretien, but hard deflection shooting can be a little tricky with the big rotary cowling in the way. 

 

Overall, I wouldn't rate it as a particularly exceptional scout, and it certainly pales in comparison to the "Big Boys" of the Entente line-up, AKA Camel, S.E., SPAD....

Here's some Quick Missions footage to round off the "Review": 
 

 

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20 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

That's problem with Entente-minded guys, you overestimate crumpet planes :D. FC SE accelerates horribly, climbs moderately and whatever turn advantage she has on N28 in insufficient against central planes. N.28 is the worst if you lose speed but regains it very fast, climbs well, dives without fear of losing wings... Combined with climb and roll it translates into something very practical that SE can't do, basic maneuver of Entente pilot who has lost the initiative... ability to GTFO!  Especially since I have yet to see serious damage to rear surfaces of N.28.

 

I'm "Entente-minded" insofar that I always fly on the side that is outnumbered, but okay, I'll bite.

 

  • The S.E. is substantially faster than everything on Central, except for the Fokker D.VIIF accelerating in a dive. Unless you make a mistake or get bounced, you can get away and come back later in a better position.
     
  • The Dolphin is faster than everything on Central except the Fokker D.VIIF and isn't substantially faster than the Pfalz and Fokker D.VII accelerating in a dive. You can outturn both low on the deck, especially if your "Central-minded" opponent somewhat underestimates the flat turning capabilities of the Dolphin. Even so, you can score prophanging hits if a D.VIIF does a chandelle to regain altitude. You're going to have a very bad time against the D.VIIF at altitude. Speed margins will become razor thin against Albatros D.Va 200hp and Pfalz D.IIIa 200hp at all altitudes, who both outturn you.
     
  • The Nieuport 28 can climb and roll. It can't turn worth a damn unless you fly without ammo and fuel. It bleeds energy in everything it does, especially in quick direction changes. That means you're a prime target for prophanging. It's very hard to recover from simple hammerhead turns at low level, something even a fully loaded Halberstadt can do. She's not bad at diving and actually very decent at pulling out of dives (I tested 8.5G), but you're still going to be in trouble against a Pfalz or Fokker D.VII that dives after you. It's no SPAD. Against the Fokker D.VIIF you're dead. I suppose you could roll a bit to throw him off, then he's either going to outturn/outclimb/outfly you in general and have a good laugh. Nothing is impossible, and I would say that you stand a pretty good chance against the equally mediocre Albatros D.Va if he's not totally on top of his prophanging game. Against the Pfalz D.IIIa 200hp and Albatros D.Va 200hp you will also be dead.
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50 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

That's problem with Entente-minded guys, you overestimate crumpet planes :D. FC SE accelerates horribly, climbs moderately and whatever turn advantage she has on N28 in insufficient against central planes. N.28 is the worst if you lose speed but regains it very fast, climbs well, dives without fear of losing wings... Combined with climb and roll it translates into something very practical that SE can't do, basic maneuver of Entente pilot who has lost the initiative... ability to GTFO!  Especially since I have yet to see serious damage to rear surfaces of N.28.

I agree it's not a duellist or lone hunter weapon, but, like RoF Dolphin, it may be very capable teamplay plane.


"Entente-minded guys", coming from the white knight of the Luftstreitkrafte 🤣

Biddle and I tested the N28 out against the D.VII F, Pfalz, and Albatros. It's a total dud - including GTFO ability. You aren't able to gain separation quickly enough to avoid being sprayed to death from range. 

As for being a capable teamplay plane...I expect that it will be. But, so are all the other FC planes...

 

28 minutes ago, J2_Oelmann said:

However it flies its fine. I dont need a plane that can compete against this or counters that. If the flight model seems realistic, I dont care about stats.


Agreed. The question is, does the FM seem realistic? The 27th Aero Squadron seemed to fare pretty well against Albs, Pfalzes and even D.VIIs in their N28s, to the point that they hated having to replace them with SPAD XIIIs(!!). From what I've seen so far, the N28 is worse than the SPAD in every way except durability. Not saying that the N28 is or isn't "incorrect" in FC just yet though, I'd want to get some solid pilot accounts first. 

EDIT: also agree that planes shouldn't be ahistorically designed to 'counter' other FC planes, but should be added as they would have flown. 

Edited by US93_Larner
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First impressions: Did some quick QM tests Nieuport 28C1 <>Albatros DVa and the DVa turns better and seems to retain energy better than the 28C1! That does not tab well with physics: All the advantages are with the 28C1 so what is going on here? :blink:

Edited by Holtzauge
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6 hours ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

I'm going to give her fair chance of replacing my stupid Dolphin. Need to rope Bidu into comparative performance tests against SE and Dolphin.

 

It dives consistently like crazy without engine crash. Or so it felt.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, J2_Oelmann said:

However it flies its fine. I dont need a plane that can compete against this or counters that. If the flight model seems realistic, I dont care about stats.

 

I'd like to see it perform up to its historical specifications, and I fear that this is simply impossible — much like the Fokker Dr.I that is still stuck at 165km/h.

 

The Nieuport 28 was NOT a good machine, it was plagued by tons of operational issues with its wings and engine. However, there is nothing, zero, nada, zilch evidence, including from simple numerical data (wing loading + power loading + airfoil), that this machine could not turn better. This isn't black magic, it's physics. Even if we consider all the data in FC to be accurate (700kg / 20m^2 wing surface / Eiffel 14 SPAD airfoil instead of 560kg / 16m^2 wing surface / RAF 14 Camel airfoil), it should still fall somewhere in between the Sopwith Dolphin and S.E.5a in terms of sustained turn. In any case it shouldn't turn worse than the SPAD which has the same airfoil but a higher wing loading. I mean... how?

 

You can lower the wing loading yourself simply by flying without ammo and minimal fuel and you will achieve a better turn rate. Even then if you pull back all the way on the stick is there no way for you to cleanly reach critical AoA the same way a Camel or Dolphin would. You'll feel and hear it getting very close, though. Hence: she lacks elevator authority, she's poorly balanced. This, I think, is the price we're paying for not being able to simulate her actual shortcomings. In gaming terms: it's a nerf. In simming terms: it's not realistic.

Edited by =IRFC=Hbender
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6 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

 

It dives consistently like crazy without engine crash. Or so it felt.


Over-revved the engine on full throttle at one point in QM when I forgot that I wasn't in my SPAD, but I've not managed to break the engine on the 3rd throttle setting or lower yet - overall diving the N28 felt pretty safe 

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1 minute ago, US93_Larner said:


Over-revved the engine on full throttle at one point in QM when I forgot that I wasn't in my SPAD, but I've not managed to break the engine on the 3rd throttle setting or lower yet - overall diving the N28 felt pretty safe 

Speaking of what it’s famous for, you’d expect diving to be bad given the issues with wing fabric tearing off. It’s good at the one thing it was historically known to be bad at. Would we accept a Dr1 that couldn’t turn but could out-dive a Spad? The ‘centrally-minded’ pilots would be up in arms, and rightly so.

55 minutes ago, J2_Oelmann said:

However it flies its fine. I dont need a plane that can compete against this or counters that. If the flight model seems realistic, I dont care about stats.

Are you not bothered about the AU engine for the Dva etc? After all, the Dva was considered a bit of a dud by both sides later in the war. A lot of strong demand for that one from the community though, mostly to make the Dva more competitive in MP.

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My first impressions so far, after sp only though:

 

pros:

 

- very good roll rate

- good visibility

- very sturdy

- powerfull engine

 

cons:

 

- very poor elevator authority

- feels heavy, everything but nimble

- poor energy retention, poor zoom (I need to check it further in MP though)

- ammo capacity

 

It feels very much like the RoF version. It can only serve as a team plane, it will be mainly used on events. Ok, there was no fresh look on the FM, it still does not fit the descriptions. I would see it rather fragile due to the wings fabric issue but more nimble and wild, It is a flying cow. The unexpected sturdyness could have an impact on using the N28 in a larger group, in such setup it could be dangerous however the low ammo capacity is a draw back again.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Oliver88 said:

 

Making the '28 the worst Entente scout for max 0.303 ammunition available.

Just wait for Hanriot!

1 hour ago, US93_Larner said:


"Entente-minded guys", coming from the white knight of the Luftstreitkrafte 🤣


In last months I have seen plenty of knights of Luftstreitkrafte succeed in Entente planes, and even more self-declared Entente pilots complaining about the same planes not meeting their high expectations. I'm growing convinced that not having outlandish expectations about your crates is key to successfully flying them as they are. Bonus points for having healthy Teutonic contempt for the deathctrap you are currently flying, it does wonders for understanding and respecting its limitations, and makes every success doubly satisfying. 

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20 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Just wait for Hanriot!


I can’t add any more reactions today so: 😠

 

But have a 🍺 anyway for bringing it up! (also crap for all the right reasons, awesome for all the wrong reasons)

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Hanriot was a special case since the .303 Vickers was not muzzle boosted, so the only sensible way to fly it was with single balloon gun, with some 200 rounds IIRC. It was one kill then you have to go back home kind of plane...

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43 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Just wait for Hanriot!


In last months I have seen plenty of knights of Luftstreitkrafte succeed in Entente planes, and even more self-declared Entente pilots complaining about the same planes not meeting their high expectations. I'm growing convinced that not having outlandish expectations about your crates is key to successfully flying them as they are. Bonus points for having healthy Teutonic contempt for the deathctrap you are currently flying, it does wonders for understanding and respecting its limitations, and makes every success doubly satisfying. 

 

My best streak ever was (mostly) in a Dolphin, for Christ's sake! 😁And I had to rip my own wings to die!

A couple months earlier and I wouldn't have touched it with a flag pole. So much for my trusted DR1, that didn't carry me so far!

 

What I mean is... let's have a little faith. See how it fares.

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