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Time to solve the invisible object bug


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On 4/18/2021 at 11:36 PM, BraveSirRobin said:

 

I hit invisible objects when I was playing RoF.  It didn't make the game unplayable.  It's just like any other bug.  You report it and move on.

Very true. Invisible objects debuted on the Channel map in RoF. When found close to an airfield, we would place a real building over the object.

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This topic has been done to death now, from all points of the compass, including myself, all I got was some non-sensical reply.

 

They have no intention of either fixing the invisible trees (which I get is a mammoth task) nor the carp and unrealistic damage model.

 

As “customers” we have been well and truly ignored and we will just have to put up with it.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/68844-appalling-tank-damage-model/?do=findComment&comment=1049929

 

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Posted (edited)

Yes you are right, topic finished.

 

Annoying that issue I began this side and tried to move the topic a little bit forward.

Thx for comments and ideas.

But the devs will not fix the bugs soon, neither the invisible objects nor the overdone collision effect.

That is for sure when reading the comments on main side 'Technical issues and Bugs'.

 

So finally we should be happy to have such a great simulation - IL2 and TC and FC - and should enjoy the great stuff.

As I said several times before, after trying a lot of other Sims, Flight-Sims and Tank-Sims, what we have here is really outstanding.

 

They are developing on all aspects of simulation, and I am personally very greatful to have IL2 (since 1946 ;-)).

 

Let's go again back into the battles and be patient.

 

I'm convinced that we will have one day all wishes fulfilled with this dev team!

 

💪

 

Edited by Fritz_Faber
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6 hours ago, L1A1 said:

This topic has been done to death now, from all points of the compass, including myself, all I got was some non-sensical reply.

 

They have no intention of either fixing the invisible trees (which I get is a mammoth task) nor the carp and unrealistic damage model.

 

As “customers” we have been well and truly ignored and we will just have to put up with it.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/68844-appalling-tank-damage-model/?do=findComment&comment=1049929

 

I completely get your frustration, really I do, but I think the message in the link you provided is actually encouraging.

 

What he is asking is for everyone to help out by reporting the location of any invisible objects as they are found in the provided thread. And in terms of the DM, I think what he is saying is that it is a work in progress and we can expect it to be adjusted as we go. He also seems to be asking for our patients in light of the fact that it is a new product area for the Dev team.

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3 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

I completely get your frustration, really I do, but I think the message in the link you provided is actually encouraging.

 

What he is asking is for everyone to help out by reporting the location of any invisible objects as they are found in the provided thread. And in terms of the DM, I think what he is saying is that it is a work in progress and we can expect it to be adjusted as we go. He also seems to be asking for our patients in light of the fact that it is a new product area for the Dev team.

Yes, I see your point, they might be on the case, I would love to be proved wrong, if I am, I will happily let everyone shoot holes in me all day ... in the sim you understand 😳

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On 4/18/2021 at 9:26 AM, LukeFF said:

 

It shouldn't, because the only map developed so far with tank combat in mind is Prokhorovka. With any other map, you take your chances with whether you'll encounter invisible objects.

Granted. However, the invisible trees/objects are present on the Prokhorovka map.
I bet if Prokhorovka were invisible-object-free, in contrast with the other maps, players would quickly migrate to missions on Prokhorovka, and very quickly the server admins / mission designers would focus on providing Prokhorovka missions.

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22 hours ago, L1A1 said:

This topic has been done to death now, from all points of the compass, including myself, all I got was some non-sensical reply.

 

They have no intention of either fixing the invisible trees (which I get is a mammoth task) nor the carp and unrealistic damage model.

 

As “customers” we have been well and truly ignored and we will just have to put up with it.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/68844-appalling-tank-damage-model/?do=findComment&comment=1049929

 

Too late.  They already have our money, and we aren't getting it back.  

 

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10 minutes ago, J30_Kaiser said:

Too late.  They already have our money, and we aren't getting it back.  

 

 

You bought 8 modules before realizing that there was a problem so serious that you wanted your money back?

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13 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:


RoF had invisible objects.  This isn’t a new issue.

 

You are right, but it has nothing to do with flying modules, it is a serious problem in tank crew. All other dont care.

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Salute

 

As a tank user, like others we encounter the invisible objects from time to time.

I would have to hold my hand up and say I have been guilty of hitting one, cursing, and then moving on, without any attempt to record.

 

I acknowledge that it is well documented that there is no magic wand to fix these and that dev's have requested that, when encountering these we log their position.

 

To assist with this, is there any way a feature could be added that allows the binding of a key to the display of your x y co-ordinates. 

 

I feel sure that this would aid the community in being more efficient in helping us to log the locations when we find them. At present, when in game it is not always practicable to be able to stop and take pictures etc. 

 

If we could just hit a key that displayed the co-ordinates we could scribble it down and then report it, which surly must help this annoying issue to get resolved sooner and be a better resource for the dev's, which will in turn be to the benefit of everyone.

 

Regards

 

DD_Friar

 

 

 

 

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@MajorMagee To get that evidence would I not have to turn on the recording, back up a bit, drive forward to get the bump again, then provide more information on where I am, all potentially whilst being in a difficult position tactically?

If I could just hit a key that displayed my x / y scribble it down, then I could move on?

 

But I do accept that that is an option, its just not always practicable.

 

Salute

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A key that could show your exact location (x, y) would be ideal, but if you can display the map(zoomed), I think a short recording to show where you are on the map might be good enough. That is what I did and they were able to find and correct it.

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On 4/18/2021 at 8:43 AM, Fritz_Faber said:

To be fair TC was sold in connection with the Kursk/Prokhorovka map only. I‘m not sure, do we have the invisible object bug there too?

If not, we could have more online MP tank battles in this area?

It is more fun than counting and identifying all thousands of ghost trees and objects.

 

👻 🌲👀

This map also has invisible 'objects'. There obviously must be a programmatic way to remove them, like there is to fix any bug in a video game.

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It beggars belief that there now seems to be this thing going on where the devs get to say, oh what's this thing going on with the invisible objects that we didn't know about, as if that was some sudden new realization, and people buy into that bs and submit coordinates.

For years we've had those, and have been complaining about them. Anyone who drives tanks for the first time in TC usually encounters them within the first hour or so.

So let's not play this stupid game please.

 

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2 hours ago, stupor-mundi said:

So let's not play this stupid game please.

 

So, what do you propose, then? If you don't report them, then they will for sure never get fixed. 

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On 4/17/2021 at 8:38 AM, Fritz_Faber said:

The tank community is growing up, good news for the developers of Tank Crew.

Unfortunately the bug of invisible objects (trees) isn‘t fixed, which is annoying.

To run with your tank into an invisible tree ruins your engine, in a few cases with high speed you even could be killed.

Mostly it causes a respawn, which on online servers means very often, you loose one of the limited heavier tanks and have to continue mission with a papertank.

Same happens with the visible little wooden stuff in a village between the houses, which should be overrun by a tank so smooth that the crew shouldn’t notice that.

I ask the developers, why is it so difficult to fix these bugs as they are known since start of TC?

If so, could you please change the damage model script - maybe that is easier - that a collision with such objects doesn’t ruins your engine?

 

TC is great, we have lot of fun, it has potential to be the best WWII tank simulator.

But that bug sometimes drives you crazy.

 

 

 

Growing up , yes... until other players like me start thinking more & more about the numerous bugs we bought .. 

 

I wont turn crazy with this game on my side  : I'll will stop playing it !     

 

Historically , the game set is Ok  but about the playability , in my opinion this tanks set can easily unbalance the game , players mostly prefering to fight with  germans tanks  for easy fights ;  Think about a T-34-85 as a future tank !  and dont model it with carboard  plates , or a bit less  !

 

 

Ah , last thing : Sorry but my english lack some practise   !

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 5/1/2021 at 6:48 PM, LukeFF said:

 

So, what do you propose, then? If you don't report them, then they will for sure never get fixed. 

Their existence has been reported. And surely has been known for ages, let's not kid ourselves. There are huge amounts of them, so it's not a case of pointing out individual ones and plucking them out of the terrain by hand. Not only would it not be a sensible use of human labour, it wouldn't be doable at all.

We're talking about data here, datastructures. Of course I have no idea of how this data is structured, but visiblity will be, somehow, a flag, or something, in the data. So there are 3D objects, probably trees, but who knows, which have an extent and are collidable, and they have in some way a property of being invisible. Of course the actual data structures will be complex, various 2D and 3D indexes, search trees, yada yada. But on some level there exist these collidable, invisible objects, and the only way to deal with large amounts of them is of course, in a programmatic way, to write a tool to remove them, i.e. to sift through the terrain, square kilometer by square kilometer, so to speak.

 

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My son-in-law is a programmer who, while admitting he wasn't at all familiar with the programming structure of BoX, said that what he has used in some of his projects* was a more-advanced-than-simple-batch file that searched the model for wireframe texture errors which were then high-lighted so the programmer could determine whether a texture or wireframe needed editing.  My point is that the error, as previously suggested, could likely be procedural and so may simply be a rogue tree model that isn't accepting its texture.  Keep in mind that I am no programmer and that my delightfully helpful criticism isn't likely to carry much weight which is why I don't comment on this topic very much although I see it interfering with gameplay quite often online.

 

*He was at a company that was contracted to create 3D Augmented Reality Training and Maintenance software for the military.  I got to try changing the oil in a truck - cool as heck.

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Mmmh ... I was to report every invisible bug at the beginning, but when you see from then when they are reported, their number ... it's an impossible task to deal with them one by one ... it takes another solution...

 

 

(What day is it?)

 

this is an example with only one player ...

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Using the ground to move through woods and Tanks are getting damaged by invisible objects and Trees . 

My Commander was killed for some very strange reason moving into position in woods .

Multiplayer only . 

Drive into Camo netting and the poles damage Tank . ? 

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Posted (edited)

The  invisible object issue  and  the effects of it  covers a few  items.   The damage model is the first thing that shows  us  it's serious programming flaws  when you hit one.

Crew injured, parts flying off, engine, track, steering   etc damage.  I recently also suffered a damaged radio  in the woods.   The collision/damage model for tanks  is  totally screwed up.   The way tanks act on the ground  is screwed up with the "rough terrain"   All terrain  off-road is the same roughness it seems.     The  vehicles, and Aircraft  do not behave on the ground  in a realistic manner at all.  It is as if they don't weigh anything, or weigh enough.

 

I saw a tank flip over  next to a destroyed bunker.  I drove over very slow to see if I could tip over as no crew was injured,  I immediately flipped over  doing 5 kph. No time to stop, instantaneous flip !

Destroyed objects  leave debris which you can't see.  This small debris will disable or flip your tank,  even though IRL,  it would not do anything to a tank.  Sometimes you destroy one object,   Then try to shoot something behind that object  and your shells explode in open air.      Invisible objects imho  will never be solved completely  or even   the majority of this.   There are a few things that can be done to solve some of the arising issues.

1)  no damage  to any tank  going under 30KPH  that hits an object,  as there shouldn't be

2) no crew injuries  for the same above.

3) No tanks flipping over  on invisible of visible small debris from a destroyed truck,  ect.   Stop the tanks from flipping over at all

4) get rid of the  " rough terrain"    it was a poor attempt at realism  and is totally unrealistic.  The boston whaler in the North Sea effect is a Total Fail

5)Answer posts  in the forum on occasion  and address some of these concerns.   Don't blow them off,  give evasive answers, or answer a different question entirely.   The crew injuries and tank damage and flipping from invisible objects needs to be fixed ASAP.   Since  everyone knows the inviso-objects fix can't be done fast,  eliminate  the totally unrealistic effects of hitting these objects.   This invisible object  damage/injury/flipping over  is really very comical,  but not funny to the players when it happens to them.

Edited by JG1_Wittmann
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On 5/1/2021 at 9:48 AM, LukeFF said:

 

So, what do you propose, then? If you don't report them, then they will for sure never get fixed. 

That  statement  is ridiculous.  There are way too many invisible objects  to remove them  individually,  everyone knows that.  Anyone asking players to point out individual objects on these maps , per occurrence, is gaslighting  and stalling to come up with an answer The crew injuries and damage and tank flipping  is  unrealistic  and more ridiculous.  Arcadish  would be a status  this collision "model aspires to achieve one day.   Here is a example  of what I refer to.

 

If you took  a GAZ  AA truck  to Bovington ,  parked it in the grass and let the Tiger run into it  would it simply get crushed like a tin can,  or would the Tiger suffer all kinds of damage and flip over ?   So if you  know what the reality of that scenario is,   then how is it, that in game  if I run into that truck,  or the debris pile left over after I blow it up,  it disables  or flips my tank over ?     Until the game lets you drive right over that truck  or its debris pile,  let's you drive through a house and not be stopped or seriously damaged and crew injured, then the damage/crew injury model  is  way off,  because that's reality

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Posted (edited)

Stop damaging the tank or crew would be in the current state the most realistic approach and pretty easy to do. If a tank can not destroy small objects the objects should not destroy the tank. So easy ...

Edited by JG27_Steini
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So, here you have it Devs, two pages on this thread, numerous other ones over months and YEARS, all about the invisible object bug and the damage model and, as far as I know ( I may be wrong here) there has been no official response,that we can all read, as to what your stand is going to be on this.

 

Can we at least have a reply by someone on the Dev team please?

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On 5/2/2021 at 2:23 PM, chuter said:

My son-in-law is a programmer who, while admitting he wasn't at all familiar with the programming structure of BoX, said that what he has used in some of his projects* was a more-advanced-than-simple-batch file that searched the model for wireframe texture errors which were then high-lighted so the programmer could determine whether a texture or wireframe needed editing.  My point is that the error, as previously suggested, could likely be procedural and so may simply be a rogue tree model that isn't accepting its texture.  Keep in mind that I am no programmer and that my delightfully helpful criticism isn't likely to carry much weight which is why I don't comment on this topic very much although I see it interfering with gameplay quite often online.

'

*He was at a company that was contracted to create 3D Augmented Reality Training and Maintenance software for the military.  I got to try changing the oil in a truck - cool as heck.

This mimics what I have been thinking all along, I have hinted at this before in a couple of different threads. I would be surprised if the developer side wouldn't have the tools that would allow them to see these things.

 

The issue though might be that it would require more man-hours then they are able to devote to it at the moment because of other projects currently running, or they are planning other map/core engine updates that would make working on this a waste of time. Because it doesn't make sense to me that they would just leave an issue like this unaddressed.

 

I wonder if the request for us to report them isn't just a short term fix to get us through until they can implement a more permanent solution. 

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Not being anything like a programmer myself the only things concrete I can add is that the anomalies:

 

                                              a) only occur in or adjacent to clusters of trees and

 

                                              b) have volume.

 

 

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On 4/18/2021 at 9:26 AM, LukeFF said:

 

It shouldn't, because the only map developed so far with tank combat in mind is Prokhorovka. With any other map, you take your chances with whether you'll encounter invisible objects.

 

you mean, because it is so much better when aircraft crash into invisible objects? 

 

How is that not the same bug issue for the flying part?

 

Example of how they are dangerous to aircraft, too:

I got blown up by reduced fall time and blast clearance.. and it seems to me that the invisible trees are most prevalent, where a dense forest area has "cut in" areas without trees. These clearings appear to be very much ridden with the phenomenon

 

 

 

 

Edited by Monostripezebra
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What is annoying  about any feeble response rapidus has made  is there seems to be a total lack of recognition  that there is a serious damage model problem that accompanies the invisible object issue,  and that is the collision damage model or tanks at off-road or any speed.  I wonder if some of the devs  watched  too many phony documentaries  where  claims are made by tank crews that they disabled another tank by driving their tank into it when their gun was damaged or out of ammo.  Never happened,  speeds off-road are too slow to make it possible to happen,  and lies or tall tales that sound good often get repeated as true.  

 

Invisible, and Visible objects  should not do any damage to a tank.  I ran into a well house  in the middle of the road, dog wanted me to throw his basketball, I didn't turn enough or the right way.   The damage to my tank was engine, both tracks, transmission, steering, and seriously injured all  crewmen.  Basically had to end the mission as commander and gunners vision was shot.    Now whether or not  that well can be made a destroy-able object  is beside the point.  It should do no damage to my tank.  I it stopped me,  that would be a slight nuisance, but to basically disable the tank is  ridiculous.   I have run into a building going slow,  or hit the porch and suffered damage,  again, ridiculous.   2 tanks  going full speed on the road  @ 30mph each  would likely receive some damage  but I don't think that   both would be disabled to the extent that they are now.  

 

Calling a fix  for a ridiculous collision damage model  undesirable  is  a telling statement.  On the one hand  the dev team  wants it to be known that the sim is the most realistic, yet on the other the clinging to an erroneous collision damage model  is  confusing.  It's way off  and  less realistic than the unrealistic off-road terrain model,  which is also ridiculous.  It is  probably a fact now that not all buildings  can be destroyed.  But a porch, or a well, or a house, a tree,  or debris left over from a tank destroying it should not damage or flip the tank over.  That should be the case whether or not the objects are visible.   Some objects might be enough to stop the tank,  some might stop it briefly,  and in those cases you would expect the tracks to churn up the off-road plowed ground,  instead of catastrophic damage and all crew injured.

 

I may have missed it but I have yet to see any  of the dev team acknowledge that the collision damage model  needs  "tuning" .   I haven't heard much on this from the dev team  fanboys  on here either ( if they are not actually paid employees )  Why is it so difficult  for some official word to come out on collision damage or injuries  being looked at ?    Does the dev team actually believe the collision damage is even close  at all ?   Is what is going on in game with the collision damage/injuries  so bad that any from the team are embarrassed to talk about it ?   What exactly is it,   do you think this damage and injuries are even close to reality, at all ?  Please give the tank players some kind of acknowledgement on collision damage.   Enough of  the locations of objects  fix the damage/injuries,  then go after the invisible objects.

Edited by JG1_Wittmann
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