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Should the 109G-6 Late be available in career through '45?


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As stated in the title, I'm wondering if there's significant enough historical justification to continue using the G-6 Late until the end of the war; rather than phasing it out as the Bodenplatte career currently does.

 

Even though I haven't flown it yet, I'm 99.98% sure that it will become my favorite 109. In career mode, at least. I'd therefore like to play it all through Normandy (when the career's out) and on to the bitter end.

 

My question, more specifically, is that, since an obscene number of G-6s were produced, is it fair to assume there would be enough left (after production ended) to supply them as regular replacements to a mixed unit? By mixed, I mean among K-4s and G-14s (and G-10s when they come around).

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Based on the orders of battle here, they seem to have been phased out in favor of G-14s and to some extent K-4s.  However, according to these quotes from Mike Williams' site, it appears that G-6's made an appearance with some units in the finals weeks of the war:

"By now deliveries of aircraft had slowed down, which is why, for example, that in March III Gruppe was given a number of old BF 109 G-6s (probably from disbanded training units) in addition to several BF 109 K-4s and G-14s. (Note: Prien has also written that II./JG 53 reverted to old Bf 109 G-6's)

War Diary Luftflotte 6; worthy of note is a note dated 3/4/1945 in the collection “Fuel Situation 1945” which says: “Production of the BF 109 has been halted, six Gruppen in Luftflotte 6’s command are being disbanded immediately in order to create a reserve”. The effected units were I/JG 3, I/JG 4, III/JG 6, II/JG 51, I/JG 53 and III/JG 77. Units were disbanded in the same way by the Luftflotte Reich (IV/JG 301) and Luftwaffe Command West (IV/JG 27)."

 

"Kurt Setzinger of II/JG 53, (JG 53 being the Me 109 Jagdgeschwader allocated to the defense of south-west Germany), recalled the fate of his unit after suffering a devastating bombing attack in mid April:

We were to take charge of training machines - old G-6s - as replacements for the aircraft lost at Ristissen. 50

Prien noted "on 23 April the unit had four Bf 109 G-6s, on 24 April this figure had already risen to 32 Bf 109 G-6s, of which none where servicable, however".

 

Of course JG27 had retreated off our Rheinland map by the end of March 1945.

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12 hours ago, VBF-12_KW said:

Based on the orders of battle here, they seem to have been phased out in favor of G-14s and to some extent K-4s.  However, according to these quotes from Mike Williams' site, it appears that G-6's made an appearance with some units in the finals weeks of the war:

 

Thanks for the detailed response.

 

I figured that, based on a few pictures I've seen, the G-6 must've been around in some fashion to the end.

 

So, as I see it, a mixed unit could theoretically keep a trickle of G-6s coming in. The majority of the planes in said unit would be what's expected--G-14s and K-4s--but a few G-6 Lates could be kept on hand and it wouldn't be, in my opinion, game-breakingly inaccurate.

 

I realize this is a niche interest, but it'd be a good way to stretch the value of the G-6 Late, and it'd also reflect the somewhat shambolic state of the Luftwaffe circa late '44 to '45. It's not the same thing as having the 109 F series stick around longer than it historically was, for instance.

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The thing is.. the difference between a "G-14" and the "G-6 late" is next to nothing. The G-14 was a failed attempt to standardize the 109 line on the model of the late G-6.
So really to distinguish between a G-6 and a G-14 is hot mess to say at least. I bet that the "old" G-6s the got, were really that. Old G-6 without Erla Haube and MW50 injection.

JPEG_20190722_122020.jpg?width=902&heigh

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4 minutes ago, ACG_DerSheriff said:

So really to distinguish between a G-6 and a G-14 is hot mess to say at least. 

 

That is true. However to simplify things, focus on the engine: As long as it has a 605-A engine it is a G-6, everything else beginning with 605-AM engines are G-14s. The AS/ASB/ASC/DB/DC line is not in the game (yet? keeps fingers crossed), except for the K4 with DB/DC engine.

 

BTW nice scan of Mermet´s book.

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7 minutes ago, ACG_DerSheriff said:

The G-6 "late" we have ingame can be equipped with the AM engine. (Water methanol injection)

 

As I understand things, the G6-late we have in the game uses the GM-1/MW-50 modified system of the ex-G6/U2. That one still has the 605-A engine and not the 605-AM engine of the G-14. See page 103 of Mermets book and also page 112 on what the difference is to the 605-AM engine.

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On 4/6/2021 at 8:33 AM, VBF-12_KW said:

"Kurt Setzinger of II/JG 53, (JG 53 being the Me 109 Jagdgeschwader allocated to the defense of south-west Germany), recalled the fate of his unit after suffering a devastating bombing attack in mid April:

We were to take charge of training machines - old G-6s - as replacements for the aircraft lost at Ristissen. 50

 

If they were indeed training machines - it would make sense that they would not have bothered using the MW-50 (initially), and instead just used a standard G-6 for simplicity.

 

I'm sure they would have conserved their better equipped aircraft for combat operations, but perhaps later retrofitted the MW 50 system and other equipment once these standard G-6's were brought forward as replacements? I can't imagine this was terribly difficult or unfamiliar, this is what they did in the field during 1944 for many combat squadrons anyway... so that would then allow you to describe them as "G-6 late" - and because the G-6 late has so many potential incarnations - that would still be technically accurate I'd have thought.

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10 hours ago, ACG_DerSheriff said:

The thing is.. the difference between a "G-14" and the "G-6 late" is next to nothing. The G-14 was a failed attempt to standardize the 109 line on the model of the late G-6.

 

Well, as I said, this is a niche interest. At most we're talking about a small weight difference between a G-6 Late with the MW-50 mod, and a G-14; that weight difference is the only meaningful statistical advantage. Nevertheless, it is a factor if you're a nitpicking weirdo like I am.

 

What I'd really like to ascertain, is the precise value of that weight difference. In the game, the MW-50 mod is listed as weighing 84kg (under the heading, 'Additional mass'), while the water-methanol mixture mass is listed as 63kg. Now, to be clear, is the total added weight of the MW-50 system 84kg plus 63kg, or just 84kg? If the total weight of the system is 147kg, then the weight savings from G-6 Late to G-14 is negligible. But if the total weight is less, then there's some worthwhile savings involved.

 

Is there any way the G-14 was modified from the G-6 Late, beyond the default use of an engine boosting system, that would add weight to it?

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28 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

Is there any way the G-14 was modified from the G-6 Late, beyond the default use of an engine boosting system, that would add weight to it?

 

If we compare G6-late (DB-605 A engine and MW50 system, Erla hood and tall tail) with G-14 (DB-605 AM engine and MW 50 system. Erla hood and tall tail) I would say there is no significant weight difference between them, that I am aware of.

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37 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

If we compare G6-late (DB-605 A engine and MW50 system, Erla hood and tall tail) with G-14 (DB-605 AM engine and MW 50 system. Erla hood and tall tail) I would say there is no significant weight difference between them, that I am aware of.

 

For reference, I wrote the pertinent weights down from the game directly:

 

109 G-6:

 

Empty: 2583 kg

Minimum weight: 2734

Standard: 3100

 

G-6 Late:

 

Empty: 2536

Min: 2779

Std: 3146

 

G-14:

 

Empty: 2680

Min: 2899

Std: 3266

 

So if we take the minimum and standard weight differences between the G-6 Late and G-14, you're looking at 120 kg. I am assuming the G-6 Late's numbers are without the MW-50 mod. Therefore, adding 84 kg to its standard weight will still give it a 36 kg advantage over the G-14. Roughly 80 pounds. Not entirely insubstantial.

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6 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

Therefore, adding 84 kg to its standard weight will still give it a 36 kg advantage over the G-14. Roughly 80 pounds. Not entirely insubstantial.

 

Hard to tell. The MW 50 tank holds 70 liters according to Mermet page 102/103, so we have roughly 70kg for the liquid alone and additional weight for the tank and additional weight for the piping, valves and filters. Empty tank and piping and valves only 14 kg ? Don´t know, but let´s assume it is indeed 84kg altogether completely filled up, then you are correct. 36kg weight difference (maybe AM engine is heavier?). 

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32 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Hard to tell. The MW 50 tank holds 70 liters according to Mermet page 102/103, so we have roughly 70kg for the liquid alone and additional weight for the tank and additional weight for the piping, valves and filters. Empty tank and piping and valves only 14 kg ? Don´t know, but let´s assume it is indeed 84kg altogether completely filled up, then you are correct. 36kg weight difference (maybe AM engine is heavier?). 

 

And, all that aside, it might be fun to fly the Late (in career) with just the improved canopy and not the MW-50 system. For the aerobatic purists out there. I've been doing some recent tests, and the plain G-6 turns with a P-51 (with 150 octane and 50% fuel load) more easily on combat power than a G-14 or K will turn on emergency. I'm not saying that makes perfect sense; I'm going strictly by feel.

 

Relatively speaking, the G-6 feels sluggish in turns and low-speed maneuvers compared to the F-4; which, in turn, feels a tad sluggish next to the E-7. The G-14 and K are, of course, the most sluggish of all (again, in maneuvers). Compared to the later Gs and Ks, the plain G-6 feels quite nimble. So I can see the somewhat perverse fun in flying the unmodded (barring the canopy, which is a must-have) G-6 Late from Normandy to Bodenplatte's end, much the same way a Zero pilot would be at a severe speed disadvantage by '44 and '45. Except even a gimped G-6 Late can flirt with 400 MPH, so it's not nearly as disadvantaged as the Zero.

 

Ultimately, I'll have to extensively test the Late whenever I finally get Normandy. With and without the MW-50 system.

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As @sevenless can attest, the G6 remained in service as a training aircraft for FS candidates all the way to the end of the war. Many of these aircraft were tossed into active combat elements along with their highly inexperienced pilots all the time. Fuel might have been near nonexistent towards the end, but what was equally limited were the birds themselves, be they G-10's, G-14's, K-4's, and of course all of the necessary parts associated with them. They took what they could get and cannibalized where they could at the cyclic rate.

 

The problem with your query is one of numbers. Did the G-6 see action post-Normandy up to and near the end of the war? Yes, the evidence is there. The problem remains that the G-6 was delegated in such ad-hoc numbers to ad-hoc JG's that it's pretty unclear as to where they ended up and how they were utilized, if at all.

 

However, the early and late G-6's and even the G-4 were in use as recce birds in PR units all the way to the end of the war. So there's that.  

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24 minutes ago, DetCord12B said:

The problem with your query is one of numbers. Did the G-6 see action post-Normandy up to and near the end of the war? Yes, the evidence is there. The problem remains that the G-6 was delegated in such ad-hoc numbers to ad-hoc JG's that it's pretty unclear as to where they ended up and how they were utilized, if at all.

 

Agreed.

 

I think a compromise could be to allow the G-6 to be supplied to the units it starts with at the beginning of Bodenplatte, but instead of cutting them off completely when conversion to the G-14 or K begins, reduce their resupply number to, say, a maximum of 4 out of your total plane reserve. So you'd have 8 G-14(or K)s and 4 G-6 Lates, or something to that effect. Then if most of the G-14s got wiped out in 1 or 2 bad sorties, you'd be forced to fly the G-6s until your group is resupplied.

 

Or, if you're the commander, you could choose to fly the G-6s and mix them up with G-14s in your flight. Or you could give them to disposable rookies and keep the later series for yourself. Ultimately it's just a matter of more choice and flexibility. Without, hopefully, compromising historical accuracy.

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I have a recollection of seeing a photo of an old G-6 transferred from a training unit to a combat JG, unfortunately, I can't remember the source. But it was an old G-6, not an Erla haube or AM/ASM engined one.

 

As already stated, we wouldn't even have the G-6 Late to represent the dire situation when these old planes that were transferred back to combat units in the last couple of months of the Reich. These would be worn out machines, survivors from the early production batches. No Erla canopies, no MW-50 water-methanol injection for engine boost, just the basic G-6 that we have as a CP, not the "G-6 Late" with all the fancy stuff.

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17 hours ago, oc2209 said:

 

For reference, I wrote the pertinent weights down from the game directly:

 

109 G-6:

 

Empty: 2583 kg

Minimum weight: 2734

Standard: 3100

 

G-6 Late:

 

Empty: 2536

Min: 2779

Std: 3146

 

G-14:

 

Empty: 2680

Min: 2899

Std: 3266

 

So if we take the minimum and standard weight differences between the G-6 Late and G-14, you're looking at 120 kg. I am assuming the G-6 Late's numbers are without the MW-50 mod. Therefore, adding 84 kg to its standard weight will still give it a 36 kg advantage over the G-14. Roughly 80 pounds. Not entirely insubstantial.

 

18 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

If we compare G6-late (DB-605 A engine and MW50 system, Erla hood and tall tail) with G-14 (DB-605 AM engine and MW 50 system. Erla hood and tall tail) I would say there is no significant weight difference between them, that I am aware of.

 

 

 

 

The late G-6 (no MW-50) weighs 3,196kg carring 78kg armour (additional bulkhead armour behind the fuel tank)

The G-14 weighs in at 3,247kg carring 48kg armour but 63kg additional weight for MW-50 -> the MW-50 installation replaces the armour behind the fuel tank.

So in sum ~ +50kg for the G-14 over the G-6 without MW-50, for the MW-50 fuel and installation

 

 

 

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On 4/8/2021 at 3:05 AM, ACG_DerSheriff said:

The thing is.. the difference between a "G-14" and the "G-6 late" is next to nothing. The G-14 was a failed attempt to standardize the 109 line on the model of the late G-6.
So really to distinguish between a G-6 and a G-14 is hot mess to say at least. I bet that the "old" G-6s the got, were really that. Old G-6 without Erla Haube and MW50 injection.

JPEG_20190722_122020.jpg?width=902&heigh

What book is this from? I don't think I own it (for shame, for shame).

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15 hours ago, oc2209 said:

 

Agreed.

 

I think a compromise could be to allow the G-6 to be supplied to the units it starts with at the beginning of Bodenplatte, but instead of cutting them off completely when conversion to the G-14 or K begins, reduce their resupply number to, say, a maximum of 4 out of your total plane reserve. So you'd have 8 G-14(or K)s and 4 G-6 Lates, or something to that effect. Then if most of the G-14s got wiped out in 1 or 2 bad sorties, you'd be forced to fly the G-6s until your group is resupplied.

 

Or, if you're the commander, you could choose to fly the G-6s and mix them up with G-14s in your flight. Or you could give them to disposable rookies and keep the later series for yourself. Ultimately it's just a matter of more choice and flexibility. Without, hopefully, compromising historical accuracy.

 

A few things here:

 

We already know from multiple primary sources what models of the 109 were issued to units and when they got them, up to the spring of 1945. You're not really going to find G-6s in unit strength reports after October 1944 in the West.

 

Secondly, from what it looks like, all those old G-6s were reissued in desperation in April 1945, when things were really falling apart and the Luftwaffe was doing more retreating than fighting. Also, career mode ends on April 1, 1945.

 

Lastly, the game divides up aircraft based on how many planes you're supposed to have by how many plane types you have. So, that means if you can have a maximum of 12 planes and you have two different models of, say, 109s, half of them will be G-6s and the other half G-6 Lates. 

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5 hours ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

 

It's only $900 on Amazon. Is that bad? :)

 

 

Lol! Ask Amazon. Running a business costs money 😂. In contrast, ordering directly from them will set you back 49 EUR, hence I gave you the link. Your choice 🙃

 

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1 hour ago, sevenless said:

 

Lol! Ask Amazon. Running a business costs money 😂. In contrast, ordering directly from them will set you back 49 EUR, hence I gave you the link. Your choice 🙃

 

Sure, but I had to peek. We are switching coasts in about 60 days, so it will get ordered after we land in the new place.

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6 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

A few things here:

 

We already know from multiple primary sources what models of the 109 were issued to units and when they got them, up to the spring of 1945. You're not really going to find G-6s in unit strength reports after October 1944 in the West.

 

Secondly, from what it looks like, all those old G-6s were reissued in desperation in April 1945, when things were really falling apart and the Luftwaffe was doing more retreating than fighting. Also, career mode ends on April 1, 1945.

 

Lastly, the game divides up aircraft based on how many planes you're supposed to have by how many plane types you have. So, that means if you can have a maximum of 12 planes and you have two different models of, say, 109s, half of them will be G-6s and the other half G-6 Lates. 

 

Understood. I realize it's a bit of a stretch. Something probably better suited to a mod like Wilson's career generator.

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On 4/9/2021 at 2:51 PM, LukeFF said:

 

A few things here:

 

We already know from multiple primary sources what models of the 109 were issued to units and when they got them, up to the spring of 1945. You're not really going to find G-6s in unit strength reports after October 1944 in the West.

 

Secondly, from what it looks like, all those old G-6s were reissued in desperation in April 1945, when things were really falling apart and the Luftwaffe was doing more retreating than fighting. Also, career mode ends on April 1, 1945.

 

Lastly, the game divides up aircraft based on how many planes you're supposed to have by how many plane types you have. So, that means if you can have a maximum of 12 planes and you have two different models of, say, 109s, half of them will be G-6s and the other half G-6 Lates. 

 

This. All of this.

 

On 4/9/2021 at 7:04 PM, sevenless said:

 

Lol! Ask Amazon. Running a business costs money 😂. In contrast, ordering directly from them will set you back 49 EUR, hence I gave you the link. Your choice 🙃

 

 

I got it off Amazon for 50 bones, in English, and brand new.

 

22 hours ago, oc2209 said:

 

Understood. I realize it's a bit of a stretch. Something probably better suited to a mod like Wilson's career generator.

 

I could do a sub-mod for WitW that has it attached to a specific squadron. Though reinforcements could be an issue gameplay wise.

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43 minutes ago, DetCord12B said:

 

I could do a sub-mod for WitW that has it attached to a specific squadron. Though reinforcements could be an issue gameplay wise.

 

Yeah, thanks for the offer, but I'll just let the subject drop for now.

 

Until I put a few dozen hours through the Late to see whether I like it as much as I expect to, at least.

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