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Snapviews in VR, or other ways to help checking six


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Player_39854

@Jason_Williams

 

I am a huge fan of GB and what you do.  I dont wish to invite a flood of criticism from people on the forum, but would the developers consider making the VR game mode more accessible for people who are limited in turning their head to check their six, due to age or disability?  Perhaps by allowing snap views or anything else which helps (WITHOUT relying on 3rd party software or mods)?  Checking of your six is SO fundamentally important to be successful and thus enjoy the game to its full.

 

Whilst this might cause consternation for some purists,  I really dont think this is "cheating" or giving an unfair advantage to VR users (as TIR users can do this already).

 

In the real world, you would naturally rely HEAVILY on your peripheral vision to check your six without turning your head the full 180.  But current VR technology mostly has a very limited FOV and a very blurred peripheral view outside the central "sweet spot".  This can be very limiting in VR if age/disability doesnt alllow you to turn your head 180 degrees like a Barn Owl.  Sure, IRL you wouldnt make the grade as a fighter pilot if health/age/disability limited you.  But this is not the real world, as much as we all seek to increase immersion and reality.  Its a game and should be as inclusive as it can be to as many users as possible.  TIR users can use snapviews if they chose, but the game currently (unintentionally) discriminates  against VR users (with age or disability issues) in this respect, in my humble opinion.

 

With the greatest respect to all users

 

 

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c6_lefuneste

Why spending dev resources on a topic for which there will be a lot of polemics (see some comments from VR users here), as there is a nice working workaround with VRNeckSafer ?

Devs resouces are limited it's a bit stupid to spend them to redo what is already available.

Edited by c6_lefuneste
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Player_39854
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, c6_lefuneste said:

Why spending dev resources on a topic for which there will be a lot of polemics (see some comments from VR users here), as there is a nice working workaround with VRNeckSafer ?

Devs resouces are limited it's a bit stupid to spend them to redo what is already available.

VRNeckSafer doesnt work with OpenComposite for starters.  If I use SteamVR I take a huge hit on FPS which makes the game unplayable in VR on my mid-range rig. 

 

The "nice workaround" is somebody elses work, which really misses the point being made

 

I wonder how much in the way of resources is really required to enable this?  It is possible to snap back to your default VR view, so is it really that hard to set up a couple of rear snap views to help people suffering from disabiity?

Edited by 334th_Biffa
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SvAF/F16_Goblin
11 minutes ago, 334th_Biffa said:

VRNeckSafer doesnt work with OpenComposite for starters.  If I use SteamVR I take a huge hit on FPS which makes the game unplayable in VR on my mid-range rig. 

 

The "nice workaround" is somebody elses work, which really misses the point being made

 

I wonder how much in the way of resources is really required to enable this?  If you press the NUMPAD5 button, it snaps back to your default view, so is it really that hard to set up a couple of rear snap views to help people suffering from disabiity?

If OpenComposite isn't supported with VRNeckSafer there is a very real possibility that implementation of this function in the game engine itself will not be functional as well.

Just my two cents.

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Player_39854
3 minutes ago, SvAF/F16_Goblin said:

If OpenComposite isn't supported with VRNeckSafer there is a very real possibility that implementation of this function in the game engine itself will not be functional as well.

Just my two cents.

That doesnt rule out snap views

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Gryphon962

I support this suggestion. As a new VR pilot with years of IL2/trackIR experience way back, VR is very limited in lookout, and the FOV (my Rift S has just 90 degrees) makes it near impossible to look over shoulder - no peripheral vision. Two 'snap views' that could be assigned to HOTAS buttons would be a game changer. 

 

Copy the VRNeckSafer thread, but I use OpenComposite.

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Drano

I used Opencomposite too and it worked great but hated not being able to look around so much I switched to SteamVR just to use NeckSafer. I gave up some FR but tweaked my settings to get a lot of it back. I can live with it being able to keep better track of things. Eventually it won't be a problem when I finally am able to get the 30 series video card I planned on getting when I built this PC a year ago! I keep telling myself that anyway! Haha! 

 

FWIW I'm also a long time Aces High player and when VR was implemented there a few years back keeping the snap views enabled was part of the plan just because of the limited FOV in VR thing. If only to compensate for the total lack of peripheral vision. Now with NeckSafer I'm able to look around exactly as I do in AH which makes it easier switching back and forth between sims. 

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Gryphon962

Based on my experience in Combatbox today I need a snap view out front too - planes are just disappearing when a few km away. 

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335th_GRFirdimigdi
19 hours ago, SvAF/F16_Goblin said:

If OpenComposite isn't supported with VRNeckSafer there is a very real possibility that implementation of this function in the game engine itself will not be functional as well.

Just my two cents.

Actually it's because OpenComposite doesn't support OpenVR plugins/addons which is the type of app VRNeckSaver, correctly, registers as.

 

FWIW I agree with OP even though I have no physical problem checking my six by looking behind me even if it does put me in a disadvantage vs pancake players who can do this instantly. At the level OP approaches it is clearly an accessibility issue that would be nice if it was addressed.

Edited by 335th_GRFirdimigdi
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[FF]Saiyon

I would actually prefer some balance brought to TrackIR users to make the game more realistic. I do feel at a disadvantage in VR but I am prepared to suffer it for the joy of a more realistic experience.

 

TrackIR users could have some adjustments implemented to level the playing field e.g.

  • The speed to move to a snap view should be increased (just a little) the further the view is looking around (this increase should be on a curve).
  • Constant repetition of checking your six adds a bit of "head bob" when you look to the six i.e. it is not the same perfect view each time
  • Using a 180 snap view during high g adds a very minor additional penalty (this should only be minor as VR users do have to strain their necks more during manoeuvres but we don't feel the G's either).

 

Just some ideas. I feel the heat of flames coming from TrackIR users though. So I will just go and hide in a bunker lol.

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SharpeXB
On 4/3/2021 at 8:27 PM, [FF]Saiyon said:

I would actually prefer some balance brought to TrackIR users to make the game more realistic. I do feel at a disadvantage in VR but I am prepared to suffer it for the joy of a more realistic experience.

 

TrackIR users could have some adjustments implemented to level the playing field e.g.

  • The speed to move to a snap view should be increased (just a little) the further the view is looking around (this increase should be on a curve).
  • Constant repetition of checking your six adds a bit of "head bob" when you look to the six i.e. it is not the same perfect view each time
  • Using a 180 snap view during high g adds a very minor additional penalty (this should only be minor as VR users do have to strain their necks more during manoeuvres but we don't feel the G's either).

 

Just some ideas. I feel the heat of flames coming from TrackIR users though. So I will just go and hide in a bunker lol.

Uhhh no. Just no. It’s fine to add snap views for VR but don’t advocate wrecking the game for everyone else. After all you are not forced to use VR. If you feel at such a competitive disadvantage it’s your choice. 

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DD_Crash

Still dont like VR then Sharpe?

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SharpeXB
23 hours ago, DD_Crash said:

Still dont like VR then Sharpe?

VR is fine. Just don’t advocate changing the game for everyone else because it puts you at a disadvantage. It’s funny that players adopted head tracking and VR to avoid pressing buttons to turn their head and now that’s what VR players want to go back to 🤣

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GOA_Firebird_
9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s funny that players adopted head tracking and VR to avoid pressing buttons to turn their head and now that’s what VR players want to go back to 🤣

 

Many times in VR you have to turn your entire body while hanging the Hotas ( and your legs in the rudder at the same time ) , its more complex that turning your head like and owl as TIR, we dont have the methods to alterate the cockpit limits. ( Its ironic that even TIR users have and use custom snaps for gunsight view, and checking 6 assigned to one button.)

What we are asking for is the same that TIR users actually have, and more that this is for our neck health 😁.

 

S

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SharpeXB
12 minutes ago, GOA_Wehraboo*VR* said:

 

Many times in VR you have to turn your entire body while hanging the Hotas ( and your legs in the rudder at the same time ) , its more complex that turning your head like and owl as TIR, we dont have the methods to alterate the cockpit limits. ( Its ironic that even TIR users have and use custom snaps for gunsight view, and checking 6 assigned to one button.)

What we are asking for is the same that TIR users actually have, and more that this is for our neck health 😁.

 

S

So fine, use snap views in VR. 
But don’t ask to handicap the gameplay for everyone else like showing down or restricting the views. 

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GOA_Firebird_
6 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

So fine, use snap views in VR. 
But don’t ask to handicap the gameplay for everyone else like showing down or restricting the views. 

Thanks!! we really need those snaps for save our neck and be more competivive agains TIR players. Back then i use TIR, actually as VR player i dont support any restriction agains the method of playing for both systems, in general what we ask is for been on equal terms ( TIR and VR ) and have the chance for check our 6 without any thirdparty tool as TIR players do by default in the game.

 

S

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Gryphon962

I just noticed that Numpad 1 and 3 provide very nice snap views to rear. However, I don't know if those will work in VR.

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DD_Crash

How do the "Full Real" fliers feel about owl necked TIR players? Is it a cheat or gaming the game.

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=420=Syphen
4 hours ago, DD_Crash said:

How do the "Full Real" fliers feel about owl necked TIR players? Is it a cheat or gaming the game.

 

100% gaming the game. MLG. Each owl neck snapview sets of air horns and double XP bonus points with mountain dew and DORITOS!!!!

 

I don't care either way. I'm in VR.. my spotting is better then 2d folks I fly with and VRNeckSaver gives me automatic gain for checking my six just like TrackIR.  Equilibrium has been reached in terms of competitive fairness. 

 

@SharpeXB  What happened?! You gave Multiplayer like a 2 month go a while ago and decided to not keep up with it? Didn't find a squadron to fly with or want to try Finnish?  I still think you should come on out more. "See the sights, smell the air!!".   Don't go solo. Squad up.

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SharpeXB
21 minutes ago, =420=Syphen said:

 

@SharpeXB  What happened?! You gave Multiplayer like a 2 month go a while ago and decided to not keep up with it?

Been doing other games or SP career. Sometimes MP gets dull. So I switch it up occasionally. 

5 hours ago, DD_Crash said:

How do the "Full Real" fliers feel about owl necked TIR players? Is it a cheat or gaming the game.

Honestly if the head turn was modeled more realistically it would be easier to look back. The “owl neck” looks straight back into your headrest whereas a realistic turn, like in DCS, would look over your shoulder and around the headrest or fuselage. 

Edited by SharpeXB
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dburne

I have neck pain issues and for me, I would not want it any other way than what we have natively with 1:1 tracking.

My swivel chair helps some, but no I can not turn far enough to see my six. I use mirrors and situational awareness. With everything

being literally full sized in VR that really helps me in the SA department.

 

Disclaimer: I do not do multiplayer, only single player campaign flying in both IL-2 and DCS, and GA in MSFS 2020.

I can certainly understand the desire to have more from MP flyers.

Edited by dburne
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