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P47 Damage Model


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ACG_Cass

I tested the inboard wing hitbox for 4 planes - P47, P51, FW190-D9, Bf109-K4. Out of all of these, the P47 comes out the looser despite having the thickest and largest wing and being renowned for it's toughness. What's more confusing is that there seems to be parity between the other aircraft and it is singularly the P47 that drops behind. 

 

I ran tests using both .50 Cal AP and 20mm AP (Shot from an FF on the 111 - every other round is AP). HE is inconclusive as it immediately puts the surface damage to Level 3 on all planes and is too powerful so follow up shots to understand fragmentation damage on other sections lead to the aircraft being destroyed. 

 

Number of rounds to each damage level for the inboard, right wing hit box:

 

image.png.1aa79e3110e5cdb859e3d40bd901b7ae.png

 

These tests were repeated numerous times and I've recorded a video below. The numbers were almost identical every time with each test. 

 

 

I understand you have the capabilities to test the DM in a tool and this was obviously tedious to do so have only tested on the main damage areas. It would be great if this could be looked into and the P47 at least be given parity to it's supposedly less resilient sisters, realistically it should be more so. 

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Denum

 

 

The P47 feels terrible in game to be honest.

 

I can tank more in a Spitfire.

I'll leave the iron tail meme free for someone else. 😉

 

popcorn-watching.gif

Edited by Denum
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ACG_Cass

Follow up: quickly tested the Spitfire IX, A8, Tempest and D22 against the 20mm AP.

 

To level 2 damage:

 

Spitfire IX: 15

A8: 15

Tempest: 16

P47 D-22: 8...

 

 

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HR_Zunzun

Thank you for taking your time in doing the test.

What I can infer too is that the 20mm ap is underpermorming a lot (if I am not mistaken while interpreting you table); That a 20mm AP rounds need to impact the wing between 8-16 times to achieve level 2 aero damage seems completely wrong to me.

Regarding the p-47 damage is completely ilogical. A p-47 has a wing surface of 27.8m2. A 109 16m2. It is 1.73 times bigger. I do not know how the relationship between the two inboard wing hit boxes but still doesn´t seem logical at all.

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Leifr

Is this online or offline?

Are you on W10?

 

Just kidding, thanks for taking the time to test and demonstrate this Cass. Bodenplatte really elevated the distress of flying with fundamentally broken machines, and is one reason why I am yet to purchase Normandy.

Edited by Leifr
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6./ZG26_Custard

The P-47 damage model has been done to death on this forum. The only way we are ever going to get 100% realism is if you take off in real P-47 and get someone in a real 109 to shoot live rounds at you. The developers have already stated that they will study the damage model, I think it this point it's just poking the bear. 

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Denum
16 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

The P-47 damage model has been done to death on this forum. The only way we are ever going to get 100% realism is if you take off in real P-47 and get someone in a real 109 to shoot live rounds at you. The developers have already stated that they will study the damage model, I think it this point it's just poking the bear. 

It's not moot though,

 

If the game aspires to be somewhat realistic then things like the .50/DM issues on allied birds needs to addressed. I bought Normandy for two planes, because I know the P-47 is disappointing and the P51s only have 4 .50s so good luck...

 

 

 

 

Inb4mergetohmgthreadsothiscangetgulag'd

 

Edited by Denum
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ACG_Cass
11 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

The P-47 damage model has been done to death on this forum. The only way we are ever going to get 100% realism is if you take off in real P-47 and get someone in a real 109 to shoot live rounds at you. The developers have already stated that they will study the damage model, I think it this point it's just poking the bear. 

It's not so much getting it perfectly accurate. But for every single plane to be the same apart from the P47 seems like an oversight that's simple to correct.

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6./ZG26_Custard
27 minutes ago, Denum said:

It's not moot though

The damage model was the subject of much discussion and heated debate prior to the last major "overhaul" There were many complaints that the aircraft fell apart and were far too weak. The P-47 in particular came in for much scrutiny. So the developers listened and then overhauled the damage model, something that wasn't a quick fix. Now we have a situation we currently find ourselves in. The developers have stated that they will study the damage model (I don't know what else is expected?) when time allows but as it has been pointed out numerous times, change one aspect and you could change another significant area. They need to produce new content to pay the bills and keep the project running. They have a schedule to work to and they are already behind because of the year that was "2020"  but we have been over this so many times already.

 

27 minutes ago, Denum said:

Unless they're literally just trying to spoon feed the Axis fan boys to keep that market happy?

 

Absolutely not. This is not the rest of the world against US aircraft. The .50's won't be correct until we have API and I'm sure it must be extremely difficult to individually model tumbling and fragmenting AP rounds so I assume until we have the developers study the DM again its where we currently are. 

 

Unfortunately, whatever they do they are not going to please everyone, that is for sure.   

 

 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Custard
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Denum

Surging ahead while leaving stuff in unacceptable condition isn't going to win fans either.

And there is SO much they can do future projects. 

(Cough, Tank Crew two, Malta/Tunisa map, Italian and British planes. Phat sales, I mean PHAT) 

 

Having even a half open dialogue with people goes a long way also.

 

Instead threads get deleted, merged and pushed into corners.

 

I understand 2020 wasn't fun for them. It wasn't fun for anyone.

 

I think a good start would be getting more testers in and potentially having one multiplayer test server to catch some of this stuff because the team they have is obviously struggling. 

 

There are plenty of players that are seriously second guessing their Normandy preorder or are straight up holding off. It might be a small percentage but it's worth considering 

Edited by Denum
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6./ZG26_Custard
1 minute ago, Denum said:

Surging ahead while leaving stuff in mostly unacceptable condition

You do realise that many months we're spent updating/overhauling the damage model because they listened to the community? Without working on future projects there is no revenue generated and if there's no revenue generated then it is adios muchachos.  Obviously though, its individual choice if people don't wish to support further projects or future updates to what we already have. 

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LR.theRedPanda

This is really strange. I hope the devs give some insight to the phenomenon. I frequent this plane and it would explain a lot about how it takes aero damage. 🤔

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LR.theRedPanda

Reading the comments above, the original post is not a comment on how effective are specific guns but why are 2 planes outliers to everything else after consistent tests and evidence in the current DM?

 

Please take discussion on past DMs or 50cal things elsewhere, it could be a bug.

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Hitcher

To bounce off what panda is saying, we know this sort of issue doesnt require a complete overhaul of the DM or this particular planes DM.

If an outlier has been found it's a matter of changing a few health point values.

We know the DM isn't some black magic beyond our comprehension, its hitboxes and HP.

 

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6./ZG26_Custard
12 minutes ago, Hitcher said:

To bounce off what panda is saying, we know this sort of issue doesnt require a complete overhaul of the DM or this particular planes DM.

If an outlier has been found it's a matter of changing a few health point values.

We know the DM isn't some black magic beyond our comprehension, its hitboxes and HP.

It's probably best to post any findings here. 

 

 

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VBF-12_Snake9

In general terms...

engine damage in a 47, you have about 30 seconds 

engine damage in a 51, you can fly 20 minutes 

 

Anyone else think they accidently switched the engine DM in these two birds? 🙄

What the hell is going on here?

3 hours ago, Denum said:

because the team they have is obviously struggling. 

That is an under statement.  🤣

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-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138

I also find that any wing damage and the 47 wants to spin and will often flat spin if you are evading in the vertical and take any hits to the wing. This also holds true for the tail. I have also experienced severe performance loss after taking a few hits from 8mm mg fire off bombers while doing high speed slash attacks where one wing takes some 8mm hits and the plane is extremely draggy on that side and very hard to keep in the air. While the P47 DM definitely seems more realistic than it was I think its still in a poor state competitively given all the other issues currently present with 109's and axis weapons vs .50's. At least in the old paper DM it was more balanced albeit less realistic in its detail. As Denum pointed out, the devs need to take some measures to improve the state of their core product as opposed to creating more content for a product that is in a bad state.

Edited by -332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138
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Dakpilot

Why not put this in correct section in proper format? 

 

This section will very likely not get the attention you want. 

 

Although it seems people are spamming the bug reports with general chat rather than the requested format... It really isn't rocket science 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

 

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Denum

It would likely get moved here anyway, apparently the Jugs DM was quite a spicy topic at one point.

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1PL-Husar-1Esk

The wing drop and plane rolling to one side is to big imho , if you lucky and have wingman ask him to shoot other wing ,it will balance the whole plane 😂 I know it's crude solution but it works. LOL.  Only proper tests and postings results might change that issue in the future. 

Edited by 1PL-Husar-1Esk
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-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138

Dakpilot I don't think anyone really has much faith in the process after the last year. Husar lol. Jug has big wings, 109 does not. Jug flies like ass after a few hits. 109 does not.

 

 

 

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1PL-Husar-1Esk
7 minutes ago, -332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138 said:

Dakpilot I don't think anyone really has much faith in the process after the last year. Husar lol. Jug has big wings, 109 does not. Jug flies like ass after a few hits. 109 does not. btw had some fights vs La5fn and this plane strong and its wing look.like do not drop as much after 20mm hits.

 

 

 

I didn't mention or compare to 109 LOL , but yes small arms do not cause much wing drop in 109 , but 20mm do .

Edited by 1PL-Husar-1Esk
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Dakpilot
1 hour ago, -332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138 said:

Dakpilot I don't think anyone really has much faith in the process after the last year. Husar lol. Jug has big wings, 109 does not. Jug flies like ass after a few hits. 109 does not.

 

 

 

 

Everyone whines about things and never makes proper bug reports and then complains that Dev's make no comments. 

 

But carry on.. 

 

The first proper bug report on 50 cals was only made last month

 

A proper bug report in the correct format will be passed on to the correct people

 

As I said it is not rocket science. Dev's do not have time to trawl through complaints section with multiple discussions and memes etc. 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138

"Whines".....ok. I also don't think people are complaining that the devs don't make comments, I know many including myself simply feel that acknowledging the issue or making a comment on it would've gone a long way to quash "multiple discussions and memes etc." It's not an obscure thing that is hard to see and many people have shown evidence of it. My comment on people not having faith in how they do things is something I think would also not be the case if they displayed a different attitude towards the issue. Husar I know you didn't mention 109 I was just laughing at your remedy in your previous post lol.

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ACG_Cass

Oof, I forgot to record the track on most of them so a bug report means a redo...

 

@-DED-Rapidus
Sorry to tag. Is it worth me deleting this thread and putting up a thread with recordings in the bug report section? I'm assuming this isn't by design if it differs from all the other planes.

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HR_Zunzun
2 hours ago, Dakpilot said:

 

Everyone whines about things and never makes proper bug reports and then complains that Dev's make no comments. 

 

But carry on.. 

 

The first proper bug report on 50 cals was only made last month

 

A proper bug report in the correct format will be passed on to the correct people

 

As I said it is not rocket science. Dev's do not have time to trawl through complaints section with multiple discussions and memes etc. 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

I do not think is incorrect to post it here first and have some discussion about possible errors regarding test methodology, sources and so on. Once there is a good agreement and the claim has been ironed out properly then it can be presented to the devs with a better chance of being taken into account.

With the 0.5cal it took a lot of time to get a good agreement. There were a lot of background clutter with the initial posts and the OP had to come with a very solid set of tests that no one (well, almost not one) could dispute. That´s why I think it took so long.

I think that if nobody has anything to say about the OP test, then the best thing, as you say, is to post it in the proper place.

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von_Tom
2 hours ago, Cass said:

Is it worth me deleting this thread and putting up a thread with recordings in the bug report section? I'm assuming this isn't by design if it differs from all the other planes.

 

This is how anything that is "off" should be dealt with.

 

A good test, too.

 

von Tom

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